Exposers of Jordons Foolishness Page

[Matthew]

So there is value on championships?

[BigKaboom2]

But I don't know. It involves a lot of guesswork I'm prepared to do right now.

Huh? Then why didn't you answer it?

[Matthew]

I think he meant to say that he's not prepared to do right now...

[BigKaboom2]

How do you prepare to guess?

[Matthew]

Hahah fuck I dont know. Don't hijack this discussion!

[TheMC5]

:?: How do you prepare to guess?

Sorry, Captain Literal. And yes, I missed the word "not". I apologize for thinking faster than I type.

And Matthew, I'll be back later to respond. Must go watch Heroes now.

[BigKaboom2]

Sorry, Captain Literal.

It involves a lot of guesswork I'm prepared to do right now.

Interpreting that figuratively would involve negating it?

It did not occur to me that guesswork requires preparation, so I assumed you meant what you said and I couldn't understand why you wouldn't simply offer the information.

[TheMC5]

Sorry, Captain Literal.

It involves a lot of guesswork I'm prepared to do right now.

Interpreting that figuratively would involve negating it?

It did not occur to me that guesswork requires preparation, so I assumed you meant what you said and I couldn't understand why you wouldn't simply offer the information.

There was a miscommunication, not a big deal. Perhaps I could have worded it better, but I think it's pretty obvious what I meant (aside from the omitted word "not").



Anyway, Matthew. I agree that championships have value in the sense we're discussing, but that value is context dependent. Both Melvin Ely and Michael Doleac have championship rings, but that doesn't really say much about their ability as players. Similarly, Wilt's 2 rings don't necessarily reflect his ability as a basketball player when you consider the context that he was up against arguably the best sports team ever assembled. Additionally, he did win 2 championships as the centerpiece of a team, so the implication that he was not a winner is somewhat misguided. So many factors go into determining the championship team outside of any particular player's skill and ability. Some of those outside factors made it incredibly difficult for Wilt to win a title. Do people hold David Robinson or Hakeem's inability to win during the Bulls dynasty years against them when attempting to evaluate their skill level? I would hope not, because the dominance of those Bulls teams made it extremely difficult to win a title.

And just to throw in another couple of things that I think helps tip the balance in favor of Wilt:
1. Not only did the league change the rules to try to limit his dominance, but according to numerous sources, he also received effectively the opposite of the MJ or D-Wade treatment from the refs, while taking perhaps the most physical punishment of any player to that point.
2. Had the league kept track of blocked shots during Wilt's career, his statistical dominance would be even more pronounced. Conservative estimates place Wilt's career BPG around 5, which is pretty incredible. However, many eyewitness accounts from fans, former refs, and players estimate that Wilt could have easily blocked in the neighborhood of 8-10 shots per game some years. Look over Wilt's career stats and just picture some double-digit blocking seasons in there, with maybe a 7 BPG average, and who knows how many steals. That is ridiculous.



EDIT: Sauru, for some good hockey talk, check this thread.

[Andrew]

Not because of that, that was just an example of how Jordan would be able to get away with shit. Like offensive fouls, and get touch calls in his favor on the offensive side.

I won't argue that Michael Jordan did not benefit from calls during his career because he certainly did, but the argument that he was great - or made significantly better - due to the referees calls is often taken too far. The push off in 1998 Finals is often mentioned, yet nothing is said about Reggie Miller's two handed shove to clear out Jordan before hitting a game winning shot in the Eastern Conference Finals that same year. John Stockton and Karl Malone were known for elbows and holding as much as they were for the pick and roll, Patrick Ewing was known to get away with an extra step now and then and Shaq's size has often afforded him the benefit of the doubt when he clears out defenders on the basis that he absorbs a lot of contact from the defense and at his size, defenders are bound to bounce of him. The best of the best have unquestionable basketball talent, but are also masters at working the officials and using all the tricks.

And if a player's accomplishments may be diminished by the star treatment they receive and changes to the game, what does that mean for Kobe Bryant's 81 point game? The league has been actively and openly taking measures to increase the scoring in recent seasons and Kobe, along with other players who have a similar style of play, benefits greatly from tighter calls on the perimeter and subtle trick of dropping their shoulder into the defender for a cheap three point play.

An interesting but frequently overlooked statistic in regards to Wilt Chamberlain is his playoff scoring average. A common trend with most of the all-time greats is that their career playoff numbers are a step up from the regular season, yet Wilt's scoring average is significantly lower in the postseason compared to the regular season; a difference of almost eight points. Furthermore, not once in all his years in the league did his playoff scoring average in a single year exceed his regular season scoring average. In comparison, Jordan's career average in the postseason is higher and exceeded his regular season average every year he appeared in the playoffs except once. The dip in Wilt's postseason scoring average and significantly lower career average is interesting because it doesn't favour the "unstoppable" tag that he's often given (and admittedly, not without reason).

Another key difference between the accomplishments and impact of Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain is that while both players won championships and reigned as the dominant offensive player of their respective eras, those two things went hand in hand for Jordan while they represented two different stages of Chamberlain's career. Jordan was able to be the league's most potent scorer while becoming the most important player on a team that won multiple championships; the championship team has only featured the league's top scorer a handful of times and six of those times were Michael Jordan and the Bulls. Conversely, Wilt had to sacrifice that aspect of his game for his teams to be successful.

[benji]

An interesting but frequently overlooked statistic in regards to Wilt Chamberlain is his playoff scoring average...Jordan's career average in the postseason is higher and exceeded his regular season average every year he appeared in the playoffs except once.

It is frequently "overlooked" because it does not mean very much. Almost all of Jordan's extra playoff scoring correlates with his increase in minutes. And a lot of Wilt's scoring drop comes from less shots.

Jordan career regular season: 30.1ppg, 38.3mpg
Jordan career playoffs: 33.4ppg, 41.8mpg
Jordan career regular season at playoff minutes: 32.9ppg

By focusing on just points per game, one misses 90% of the story in this case.

A common trend with most of the all-time greats is that their career playoff numbers are a step up from the regular season

This is said a lot. But, let's look. No pace adjustments as we are comparing them against themselves, not each other. pts, rebs, asts, poss, per 40 min obviously.
*Players prior to 1978 have no turnovers recorded, tried to minimize number of players. Players who played prior to 1978 and post were ignored for now. So Kareem for example.

Code: Select all

Jordan RegSea: 31.5 pts, 6.5 rebs, 5.5 asts, 108.6 points per 100 poss, 8.8% turnover rate, 56.9% TS, 32.4 poss
Jordan Playof: 32.0 pts, 6.2 rebs, 5.5 asts, 108.2 points per 100 poss, 8.9% turnover rate, 56.8% TS, 33.0 poss

Shaq RegSea: 28.3 pts, 12.7 rebs, 3.0 asts, 106.8 points per 100 poss, 11.0% turnover rate, 58.4% TS, 28.4 poss
Shaq Playof: 26.2 pts, 12.5 rebs, 2.9 asts, 103.1 points per 100 poss, 11.7% turnover rate, 56.7% TS, 27.3 poss

D. Robinson RegSea: 24.3 pts, 12.3 rebs, 2.8 asts, 106.4 points per 100 poss, 11.5% turnover rate, 58.3% TS, 24.6 poss
D. Robinson Playof: 21.1 pts, 12.3 rebs, 2.7 asts, 100.3 points per 100 poss, 11.7% turnover rate, 54.8% TS, 22.8 poss

Wilt RegSea: 26.3 pts, 20.0 rebs, 3.9 asts, 114.0 points per 100 poss*, 54.7% TS, 25.3 poss
Wilt Playof: 19.1 pts, 20.7 rebs, 3.6 asts, 110.6 points per 100 poss*, 52.4% TS, 19.4 poss

Duncan RegSea: 23.3 pts, 12.7 rebs, 3.4 asts, 101.2 points per 100 poss, 12.2% turnover rate, 55.4% TS, 25.2 poss
Duncan Playof: 23.7 pts, 12.5 rebs, 3.5 asts, 102.2 points per 100 poss, 12.4% turnover rate, 56.0% TS, 25.5 poss

Pettit RegSea: 27.2 pts, 16.7 rebs, 3.1 asts, 105.8 points per 100 poss*, 51.1% TS, 27.7 poss
Pettit Playof: 25.3 pts, 14.7 rebs, 2.7 asts, 103.6 points per 100 poss*, 50.1% TS, 26.1 poss

Barkley RegSea: 24.2 pts, 12.8 rebs, 4.3 asts, 109.8 points per 100 poss, 14.0% turnover rate, 61.2% TS, 24.6 poss
Barkley Playof: 23.4 pts, 13.1 rebs, 4.0 asts, 107.3 points per 100 poss, 12.0% turnover rate, 58.4% TS, 24.3 poss

Magic RegSea: 21.3 pts, 7.9 rebs, 12.2 asts, 114.3 points per 100 poss, 16.4% turnover rate, 61.0% TS, 25.8 poss
Magic Playof: 19.6 pts, 7.8 rebs, 12.4 asts, 114.7 points per 100 poss, 15.2% turnover rate, 59.5% TS, 24.4 poss

Malone RegSea: 26.9 pts, 10.9 rebs, 3.8 asts, 105.6 points per 100 poss, 11.8% turnover rate, 57.7% TS, 27.9 poss
Malone Playof: 24.1 pts, 10.4 rebs, 3.1 asts, 97.87 points per 100 poss, 10.4% turnover rate, 52.6% TS, 26.7 poss

Hakeem RegSea: 24.4 pts, 12.4 rebs, 2.8 asts, 99.84 points per 100 poss, 12.6% turnover rate, 55.3% TS, 26.3 poss
Hakeem Playof: 26.1 pts, 11.3 rebs, 3.2 asts, 104.7 points per 100 poss, 10.9% turnover rate, 56.9% TS, 27.0 poss

Bird RegSea: 25.3 pts, 10.4 rebs, 6.6 asts, 106.5 points per 100 poss, 11.7% turnover rate, 56.4% TS, 27.9 poss
Bird Playof: 22.6 pts, 9.78 rebs, 6.2 asts, 104.8 points per 100 poss, 11.5% turnover rate, 55.1% TS, 25.5 poss

Oscar RegSea: 24.3 pts, 7.1 rebs, 9.0 asts, 123.5 points per 100 poss*, 56.4% TS, 24.6 poss
Oscar Playof: 20.8 pts, 6.3 rebs, 8.4 asts, 120.5 points per 100 poss*, 54.4% TS, 21.9 poss

West RegSea: 27.6 pts, 5.9 rebs, 6.8 asts, 117.5 points per 100 poss*, 55.0% TS, 27.3 poss
West Playof: 28.2 pts, 5.4 rebs, 6.2 asts, 114.8 points per 100 poss*, 54.1% TS, 28.1 poss

I think that's enough. I don't see it in their career numbers.

[The X]

I'm thinking that Wilt having to face one of, if not the greatest defensive forces the game has ever seen in Bill Russell must have had some impact on reduced shot attempts & scoring outputs....with all due respect to the Craig Ehlo's & Reggie Miller's of the world, they are not noted as All-Time great defenders at their positions....

[benji]

Code: Select all

Russell RegSea: 14.3 pts, 21.2 rebs, 4.0 asts, 102.9 points per 100 poss*, 47.1% TS, 16.5 poss
Russell Playof: 14.3 pts, 21.9 rebs, 4.1 asts, 103.5 points per 100 poss*, 47.4% TS, 16.4 poss

Ehlo RegSea: 14.2 pts, 6.0 rebs, 4.7 asts, 99.1 points per 100 poss, 13.3% turnover rate, 52.3% TS, 17.5 poss
Ehlo Playof: 13.4 pts, 4.8 rebs, 4.8 asts, 96.5 points per 100 poss, 11.5% turnover rate, 49.2% TS, 17.2 poss

Miller RegSea: 21.2 pts, 3.5 rebs, 3.5 asts, 115.0 points per 100 poss, 9.9% turnover rate, 61.4% TS, 20.5 poss
Miller Playof: 22.4 pts, 3.1 rebs, 2.7 asts, 112.6 points per 100 poss, 9.0% turnover rate, 60.1% TS, 21.5 poss

Horry RegSea: 11.5 pts, 7.8 rebs, 3.5 asts, 97.08 points per 100 poss, 14.4% turnover rate, 52.2% TS, 14.2 poss
Horry Playof: 11.5 pts, 8.0 rebs, 3.4 asts, 104.1 points per 100 poss, 12.7% turnover rate, 55.2% TS, 13.2 poss

[BiGrEd819]

i hate when ppl compare players of today to the past. i dont want to undermine russel or wilt but in terms of athleticism it is unfair to compare today's game to the 50's-70's. even 80's. i know physique may not be the most important part of being a good basketball player but ONLy if some u guys just watched the nba classics on espn or something from the 70's.. the average player back then was, how do u say it, PUUNEY compared to today's. you could really see the changes and "bulking" of players in the nba as each decade passes by.

[Sauru]

players today may be bigger but the players on the 80's would beat the snot out of the ones in todays watered down game.

[benji]

i hate when ppl compare players of today to the past. i dont want to undermine russel or wilt but in terms of athleticism it is unfair to compare today's game to the 50's-70's. even 80's ... the average player back then was, how do u say it, PUUNEY compared to today's. you could really see the changes and "bulking" of players in the nba as each decade passes by.

Has nothing to do with advances in medical science and other technologies, right?

[TheMC5]

i hate when ppl compare players of today to the past. i dont want to undermine russel or wilt but in terms of athleticism it is unfair to compare today's game to the 50's-70's. even 80's ... the average player back then was, how do u say it, PUUNEY compared to today's. you could really see the changes and "bulking" of players in the nba as each decade passes by.

Has nothing to do with advances in medical science and other technologies, right?

Yeah, no shit. Not to mention the impact that constantly playing with/against superior athletes would have on one's abilities.

[Andrew]

It is frequently "overlooked" because it does not mean very much. Almost all of Jordan's extra playoff scoring correlates with his increase in minutes. And a lot of Wilt's scoring drop comes from less shots.

Jordan career regular season: 30.1ppg, 38.3mpg
Jordan career playoffs: 33.4ppg, 41.8mpg
Jordan career regular season at playoff minutes: 32.9ppg

By focusing on just points per game, one misses 90% of the story in this case.

The fact that Michael Jordan played those extra minutes in the Playoffs is certainly significant because it afforded him the opportunity to take more shots and thus have a better chance at scoring more points than he did in the average regular season game. However, it only guaranteed him the opportunity to score more points; he still had to go out there and make those baskets.

It's true, Wilt's field goal attempts were down in the Playoffs but that still leads me to question the assertion that Wilt was truly "unstoppable" (and yes, I realise a tag like that requires some leeway since no one is perfect and pro athletes are prone to having bad days the same as anyone else), why were his shot attempts down? Did facing more effective defenses every game limit his own effectiveness and scoring oportunities or was it simply a matter of unselfishness?