Can you support the troops but not the war?

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Can you support the troops but not the war?

Postby Riot on Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:47 am

Apparently, a lot of troops in Iraq don't think so. In an article by NBC a reporter who was in Iraq interviewed a lot of troops and the vast majority of them said they are frustrated with the American people and feel as though they don't think they are doing a good job. Here are some quotes from the troops. I found it very interesting.

Friday's NBC Nightly News included a story from my colleague and friend Richard Engel, who was embedded with an active duty Army infantry battalion from Fort Lewis, Washington.

Engel relayed how "troops here say they are increasingly frustrated by American criticism of the war. Many take it personally, believing it is also criticism of what they've been fighting for."


So despite people saying they support the troops but not the cause, they are still feeling as though it is a shot at them. When people say we should pull out and things aren't going well you can't help but think how bad the troops would feel. You are basically saying we should give up because it is a mess and call it quits. You are taking shots at the troops, whether you meant it or not.

First up was 21 year old junior enlisted man Tyler Johnson, whom Engel said was frustrated about war skepticism and thinks that critics "should come over and see what it's like firsthand before criticizing."

"You may support or say we support the troops, but, so you're not supporting what they do, what they're here sweating for, what we bleed for, what we die for. It just don't make sense to me," Johnson said.


This is the quote that really makes sense to me. How can you support the troops but not what they are doing!?! There are so many defeatists you there yet they claim they still support the troops. They say they support the troops because they have to but their actions show otherwise. People want to cut the funds to the war yet they still support the troops? Unbelievable.

Next up was Staff Sergeant Manuel Sahagun, who is on his second tour in Iraq. He complained that "one thing I don't like is when people back home say they support the troops, but they don't support the war. If they're going to support us, support us all the way."


Makes sense to me.

Next was Specialist Peter Manna: "If they don't think we're doing a good job, everything that we've done here is all in vain," he said.


Yes...this is the key quote to me! Why would you want to pull out of Iraq now and admit mistake? You are letting all those who have died die in vain. This is the biggest problem Vietnam veterans have with the war. You pull out and let the region call into mayhem and all those who died are forgotten and died for a "mistake". You have to want to win this fight. The troops might want to go home personally but they don't want the military occupation to end. They want to win the damn war.

The article I am quoting for, however, turns out to be an article that is against the troops. You want to hear some nasty and ugly quotes from the author of the article? He said this about the troops speaking up about their frustrations.

These soldiers should be grateful that the American public, which by all polls overwhelmingly disapproves of the Iraq war and the President's handling of it, do still offer their support to them, and their respect.


What a joke. These guys are putting their lives on the line every single day and they don't have the right to voice their opinion? Americans at home bitch and moan about the war and about how we should pull out and forget about it but nobody ever thinks about how the troops think. The soldiers should be grateful? Give me a fucking break. Americans should be grateful.

Through every Abu Ghraib and Haditha, through every rape and murder, the American public has indulged those in uniform, accepting that the incidents were the product of bad apples or even of some administration or command order.


An even lower low. Now the soldiers are discrediting the American public and the American public is simply sticking up for the troops. This guy has balls, I'll give him that.

So, we pay the soldiers a decent wage, take care of their families, provide them with housing and medical care and vast social support systems and ship obscene amenities into the war zone for them, we support them in every possible way, and their attitude is that we should in addition roll over and play dead, defer to the military and the generals and let them fight their war, and give up our rights and responsibilities to speak up because they are above society?


This guy is a fucking retard. First off, soldiers don't get good wages but that is besides the point. THEY ARE IN A FUCKING WARZONE!!!!!!! They don't want the American people to give up their rights (they are fighting to protect those rights!) but they want them to stop saying they support the troops but not the war. The troops feel you are either all in or all out. It is a reasonable stance and there is no reason why this guy should be attacking them like this.

But it is the United States, and the recent NBC report is just an ugly reminder of the price we pay for a mercenary - oops sorry, volunteer - force that thinks it is doing the dirty work.


This one sent me over the edge. He has no respect for those who are overseas fighting. *shakes head*

America needs to ponder what it is we really owe those in uniform.


WOW! We need to ponder what we really owe these people? Yes...we owe them a lot! We owe them our thanks. Our gratitude. Our un-divided support. Our loyalties. Our money. They deserve a lot.

This guy, by the war, is named William M. Arkin and he writes for the Washington Post. The interviews about the troops were on NBC's Nightly News. This guy is a douche and should be reminded of that daily.

Thoughts?

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Postby Steve [The Spiderman] on Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:17 am

I'm totally with you on this one Riot...I understand that many people don't agree with this war or war in general. But, the US troops in Iraq are fighting for our "rights" and so many spit on them for it. It truly is despicable...
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Postby bigh0rt on Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:28 am

I support our troops in that I wish them the best, and don't wish to see them die unnecessarily or be injured, etc. So in that regard, yes, I do support them; while at the same time not supporting the war. As for the people who want to cut funds, you conveniently left out the part where those said people also want to bring the troops home, thus alleviating the cost of the war. There's very few people lobbying to keep the number of troops over there who are there, but cut funding, and while such people do exist I'm sure, they are the vast minority; but mentioning that wouldn't really help your agenda.
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Postby Steve [The Spiderman] on Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:36 am

So what you suggest is to pull the troops as well as funding, leaving Iraq in a state worse then when we entered...sounds brilliant. :roll:
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Postby Riot on Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:43 am

bigh0rt wrote:I support our troops in that I wish them the best, and don't wish to see them die unnecessarily or be injured, etc. So in that regard, yes, I do support them; while at the same time not supporting the war. As for the people who want to cut funds, you conveniently left out the part where those said people also want to bring the troops home, thus alleviating the cost of the war. There's very few people lobbying to keep the number of troops over there who are there, but cut funding, and while such people do exist I'm sure, they are the vast minority; but mentioning that wouldn't really help your agenda.


Like Steve said, you want to pull the troops so Iraq enter chaos and civil war for decades? You want to pull the troops leaving the oil fields un-guarded leaving them open to terrorist hands who can control them and use the profit off the oil to fund their evil plans against America and the rest of the world? Not to mention leaving Iraq now would admit defeat and tell all the troops that those who died simply died in vain. Like I said, that is one of the reasons why Vietnam veterans were so upset. They felt as though their sacrafice was for nothing. You don't want these troops to feel the same way, too.

You can't pull out of Iraq. You can't start to reduce the number of troops in Iraq. If anything you have to add more troops to try and secure the borders and Baghdad (which is what they are doing). We are in this thing now so you have to do it right. You can't fight a war half-heartedly and it is showing.
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Postby bigh0rt on Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:10 am

Steve [The Spiderman] wrote:So what you suggest is to pull the troops as well as funding, leaving Iraq in a state worse then when we entered...sounds brilliant. :roll:


I wasn't suggesting that at all, actually. I was simply stating that the vast majority of those who want to cut funding for the war want that, so not to make it sound like there are droves of people out there whose goal is to leave as many people over there as possible, unfunded.

I've learned not to get too deep into these political discussions, as I've yet to see a single view change ever on these or any forums in political threads, and Riot's got the coating of his opinions with words like 'evil' down, so it's not even worth my words.

I was not, however, suggesting that we just up and say, alright everybody, come on home. That's just silly.
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Postby Riot on Sun Feb 04, 2007 8:08 am

So you don't like to debate with me because I call heartless killers "evil"? I think evil is a pretty damn good choice of words if you ask me.
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Postby el badman on Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:36 am

So you don't like to debate with me because I call heartless killers "evil"? I think evil is a pretty damn good choice of words if you ask me.

I think a debate with you is pretty much useless because apparently, everything is always in black and white for you. There are the good guys and the bad guys, there's supporting the troops or not supporting them...Just like your beloved prez was saying "you're either with us or against us"... :shake:
It's just pointless to even try to expose you to common sense, you'll pull out your infamous "facts" and data from your neo-fascist sources...
If supporting your troops means keeping my eyes closed on what's really going on over there, Irakis women and children being killed on a daily basis more than the actual "terrorists", then no I'm certainly not supporting them.
They're dying for no purpose, killing for no purpose, and obeying stupid orders made them take away whatever thread of freedom the Iraki population still had before the invasion. At least, they had water, food, and were a zillion times less likely to get blown up at every corner...
Your US troops, and whatever's remaining of the "coalition" have been manipulated, and so has the entire American population. The billions that have been spent on this shit could have been used for everything that's lacking in this country, but instead people were lured into supporting the massacre of mainly innocent people for Halliburton's sake...
There's just no words to describe the insanity of this whole thing, and those who still support it. (N)
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Postby Joe' on Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:11 am

Why do we always have to have a thread involving Bush, the war in Iraq and the US Troops, etc?
Can't we talk about stupid things like "when will Hollywood actors stop faking their ages?" or "when will Jim Carrey get a haircut?"
I think it'd be a billion times funnier.

Jeez, it's always about Bush, Iraq and the god damned terrorists.
We all know you suck Bush's dick 24/7, Riot. There's no need to make a new thread every week to clarify it.
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Postby Riot on Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:12 am

Have you ever been a positive contributor to anything in your entire life? I don't think I have ever seen a productive post from you in my time here at the forums. It seems like every time I log in and write down my opinion you come on here only to attack it. You never, ever get into a real debate with the issues besides calling me names and throwing a few pot shots.

You are a joke. You attack and insult and use this as your only means of debate. You say I lack common sense. You say I'm misguided. You say I'm ignorant. You say I'm a no good flag waver. You will say anything you want in regards to me and my beliefs. You've never said anything productive in these threads so why in the world do you even open them? I don't care about you and your fucking ignorant opinions about me. I don't care about how you know the ins and outs of the world and I'm just a naive little twit living in my own make believe world. If you don't want to have a healthy, constructive debate then please get the hell out of here. I am sick to death of you.
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Postby Riot on Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:14 am

Joe' wrote:We all know you suck Bush's dick 24/7, Riot. There's no need to make a new thread every week to clarify it.


I didn't mention President Bush in this thread at all. Did you read the thread at all? This is about a writer for the Washington Post attacking our troops saying we don't owe them anything and how they should be grateful.

Sometimes I think people have automated responses for whenever I post and don't even read my threads anymore.
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Postby Joe' on Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:24 am

Riot wrote:
Joe' wrote:We all know you suck Bush's dick 24/7, Riot. There's no need to make a new thread every week to clarify it.


I didn't mention President Bush in this thread at all. Did you read the thread at all? This is about a writer for the Washington Post attacking our troops saying we don't owe them anything and how they should be grateful.

Sometimes I think people have automated responses for whenever I post and don't even read my threads anymore.


You didn't mention Mr. Bush in this thread, but I'm sure as hell you mentioned him in at least 1/3 of your posts.

We don't read your threads anymore because they're always about the same damn thing.

Also, I'd like to ask you something, maybe it's just me but I noticed you always respond to those who don't agree with you in quite an aggressive way. Now, you are the one who says one should be free to do or say whatever the fuck he wants, so why do you keep attacking everyone that doesn't agree with you?
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Postby Riot on Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:15 pm

Joe' wrote:Also, I'd like to ask you something, maybe it's just me but I noticed you always respond to those who don't agree with you in quite an aggressive way. Now, you are the one who says one should be free to do or say whatever the fuck he wants, so why do you keep attacking everyone that doesn't agree with you?


Because it is a debate and when people refute my stance on issues I refute back. That is what a debate is all about. I am passionate about what I believe in just like everyone else is passionate about what they believe in. It might come off as stubborn, and it probably is a little bit, but it is all in the spirit of debate. It wouldn't be a debate if we didn't bicker back and forth and toss ideas around, would it?
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Postby Ryan on Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:48 pm

Riot, are you in the military or plan on joining the military?
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Postby The Other Kevin on Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:54 pm

Yeah, I've had long Aim convos with him about it. He never shuts up about it, acutally.
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Postby Ryan on Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:02 pm

And to answer the title of this thread. Yes I support the troops. I know a lot of people who served or are still in Iraq. To say that anyone who disagrees with the Iraq war is against are troops is a very broad and inaccurate view. One of my closest childhood friends just came back from Iraq a few months ago and to see what that war did to him is reason enough not to support the war for me.
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Postby Riot on Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:04 pm

RyanP wrote:and to see what that war did to him is reason enough not to support the war for me.


That post war snydrome (I forgot the actual term) happens no matter what the war is. Using this logic you wouldn't support any war, including WWII.
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Postby Ryan on Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:25 pm

I do support military action for a just cause, but I do not feel that this war is just. The planning and reasoning for it were just plain botched. The Department of Defense and the Cheney Administration imo are the ones who do not support our troops. We should have invested our resources into Afghanistan and other places where the terrorist were thriving, not making another hot bed for them and making the U.S. even more despised throughout the world.
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Postby el badman on Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:33 pm

Have you ever been a positive contributor to anything in your entire life? I don't think I have ever seen a productive post from you in my time here at the forums. It seems like every time I log in and write down my opinion you come on here only to attack it. You never, ever get into a real debate with the issues besides calling me names and throwing a few pot shots.

You are a joke. You attack and insult and use this as your only means of debate. You say I lack common sense. You say I'm misguided. You say I'm ignorant. You say I'm a no good flag waver. You will say anything you want in regards to me and my beliefs. You've never said anything productive in these threads so why in the world do you even open them? I don't care about you and your fucking ignorant opinions about me. I don't care about how you know the ins and outs of the world and I'm just a naive little twit living in my own make believe world. If you don't want to have a healthy, constructive debate then please get the hell out of here. I am sick to death of you.

And who the fuck do you think you are? From what I can read so far, you're just a stupid brat who doesn't know shit about anything and yet feels like enlightening everyone about the same bullshit.
Talking about making productive posts in this forum, when was the last time you did that? I guess you just chose a random online forum to vomit your ignorant views, I still haven't seen any valid post from you trying to help people with this game, or releasing patches. You're obviously just here to defend the propaganda you're brainwashed about. You're obviously free to do that, but don't expect other posters to agree with your nonsense, or even to shut up in case they don't agree with you.
A healthy debate? How could it even be that way with the kind of shit you post or reply?
If you manage to find the missing half of your brain, then maybe we'll have a healthy debate.
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Postby Ty-Land on Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:37 pm

I support Australian troops to a certain extent, but I'm not going to honour their complaints for being there. They choose the Armed Forces as a career, therefore they should have understood the risks being involved. I met a few guys from the Aust. Defence Force Academy the other week and they are training for various roles in the Air Force. They want nothing to do with Iraq. They don't want to go there, they don't support the war at all. Afghanistan they are more willing, but still highly sceptical.

I don't, and can't imagine I ever will, support the motives for the war in Iraq. But I will support the troops there as I believe that helps them justify being there and makes their lives a little bit easier. On the same foundations, the troops cannot be pulled out now leaving the job incomplete. I don't take the arguments that civil war will ensue, as many reports are currently stating certain areas are already in a civil war regardless of the presence of coalition troops there. But if the US, Britain, Australia and Co. pull out now, the leaders of each nations should be charged for war crimes and crimes against humanity. Because if they pull out now so many lives will be on their hands, not to mention the day to day hardship suffered by the whole nation of Iraq.
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Postby Gundy on Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:05 pm

I would be interested if there was some poll which asked the troops if they think the war they are fighting is just or not.
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Postby Riot on Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:56 pm

el badman wrote:And who the fuck do you think you are? From what I can read so far, you're just a stupid brat who doesn't know shit about anything and yet feels like enlightening everyone about the same bullshit.
Talking about making productive posts in this forum, when was the last time you did that? I guess you just chose a random online forum to vomit your ignorant views, I still haven't seen any valid post from you trying to help people with this game, or releasing patches. You're obviously just here to defend the propaganda you're brainwashed about. You're obviously free to do that, but don't expect other posters to agree with your nonsense, or even to shut up in case they don't agree with you.
A healthy debate? How could it even be that way with the kind of shit you post or reply?
If you manage to find the missing half of your brain, then maybe we'll have a healthy debate.


My point excatly. You can't handle someone having a different opinion than you so you resort to saying I'm a brat and I have half a brain. My posts are actually thought out and provide some insight, whether others believe it or not. You on the other hand offer nothing.

You are worthless.
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Postby Oznogrd on Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:57 pm

Riot wrote:So you don't like to debate with me because I call heartless killers "evil"? I think evil is a pretty damn good choice of words if you ask me.



IM SICK OF THIS SHIT RIOT. Sorry dude. I know they attacked us, i know they are out for you me and everyone else we'd consider in the free world. BUT DID YOU EVER FUCKING CONSIDER FOR A SECOND THEIR VIEW? as misguided as it may be; they believe in something enough to die for it which is more than 3/4 of the world can sa. I'm not supporting terrorism whatsoever; if they truly knew the depths of islam they would know that the killing solves nothing and gets them nowhere. But why is it wrong for them to believe in their cause? why is it evil? the killing is evil, but how do you know their heartless? i'm sure just as many of them have families and other bits of their lives they hope to improve and help in the future through their jihad and activism.

Now as for the rest of this thread although i know i'm probly going to get roasted by riot/benji/christopherson.
IT IS FULLY POSSIBLE TO SUPPORT THE TROOPS AND NOT THE WAR. From my understanding, the troops for the most part didnt say "i sign up to go to Iraq and do exactly as i'm told whether or not i'm very well liked for this fact" Sure some did sign up to help specifically with this war but i belive they are few and far between. As it is; they're just doing their job. We cannot fault them for doing their job whether or not we agree with the cause. I wish them the best, none of them injured, none of them with Post Traumatic Stess Disorder (thats the term you wanted Riot, and yes it does happen with every war), i want them all back safe and sound to their families as soon as possible. Is that so wrong? I'm not saying we dont need to finish the job; i'm just hoping the best of luck for the unlucky people who DO go to combat etc.

However i'm putting this, take it as you will. We've been looking at a recent spike in disabled sports....lots of new athletes are coming in. I'll give you one guess where they were less than a year ago. Now while this is good for my sport getting fresh blood do i wish that trauma or pain on anyone (dealing with becoming disabled) or their family? of course not. Casualties may be low; but the wounded is some ludicrous number and for a war that was "over", thats just not right.

As for the "debate"; Riot, you dont debate 3/4 of the time. occasionally you give sources and semi-thought out posts and there i applaud you. But here's what you have to remember: not all sources are reliable to everyone. Some people believe every word of US Press. Some people only read european....also remember everyone has bias, its impossible to eliminate. But what you need to do to make you believe you are debating rather than preaching? DO NOT JUDGE when we disagree. If you want debate rather than arguing; everyone must keep an open mind. I listen to all sides when a logical argument can be presented. For instance if we look back to the "Smoke it Up" thread me and christopherson went at it for awhile. While we got HEATED, i dont believe we ever once didnt actually listen to what the other guy was saying. We saw what they said, and made our rebuttal, using different logic/arguments each time. Your logic tends to always be the same. I'm all for supporting our country, hell i even agree this is the greatest place in the world. But being a citizen also gives me the right to disagree with whoever whenever and not be judged.
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Postby Nick on Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:37 pm

I like how the troops are made out to be the victoms.
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Postby Riot on Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:57 am

illini wrote:IM SICK OF THIS SHIT RIOT. Sorry dude. I know they attacked us, i know they are out for you me and everyone else we'd consider in the free world. BUT DID YOU EVER FUCKING CONSIDER FOR A SECOND THEIR VIEW? as misguided as it may be; they believe in something enough to die for it which is more than 3/4 of the world can sa. I'm not supporting terrorism whatsoever; if they truly knew the depths of islam they would know that the killing solves nothing and gets them nowhere. But why is it wrong for them to believe in their cause? why is it evil? the killing is evil, but how do you know their heartless? i'm sure just as many of them have families and other bits of their lives they hope to improve and help in the future through their jihad and activism.


So strapping a bomb to a two year old and placing him in the middle of a packed market where hundreds of innocent lives are wondering the streets isn't heartless or evil? It's just a different "point of view"? I understand they think they are right but they aren't. It's that plain and simple. They are targeting innocent lives to install fear in the masses. That is not how you should try to win a war. You don't target innocent lives. That is heartless. That is pure evil. I don't know how I am wrong on this stance. Terrorists are evil.

Now as for the rest of this thread although i know i'm probly going to get roasted by riot/benji/christopherson.
IT IS FULLY POSSIBLE TO SUPPORT THE TROOPS AND NOT THE WAR. From my understanding, the troops for the most part didnt say "i sign up to go to Iraq and do exactly as i'm told whether or not i'm very well liked for this fact" Sure some did sign up to help specifically with this war but i belive they are few and far between. As it is; they're just doing their job. We cannot fault them for doing their job whether or not we agree with the cause. I wish them the best, none of them injured, none of them with Post Traumatic Stess Disorder (thats the term you wanted Riot, and yes it does happen with every war), i want them all back safe and sound to their families as soon as possible. Is that so wrong? I'm not saying we dont need to finish the job; i'm just hoping the best of luck for the unlucky people who DO go to combat etc.


The thread was mostly about how the troops are frustrated with the American population. I kind of put my own opinion after a few quotes but the object of the thread was to show you what the troops think and what this stupid reporter for the (liberal) Washington Post had to say about it. I, personally, think if you support the troops you should support the mission they are on so they aren't fighting in vain. I really think you should.

However i'm putting this, take it as you will. We've been looking at a recent spike in disabled sports....lots of new athletes are coming in. I'll give you one guess where they were less than a year ago. Now while this is good for my sport getting fresh blood do i wish that trauma or pain on anyone (dealing with becoming disabled) or their family? of course not. Casualties may be low; but the wounded is some ludicrous number and for a war that was "over", thats just not right.


I'm not sure how to respond to this. I know there are a lot of deaths and injuries and it's that way in any war. It wouldn't be called war if there wasn't any bloodshed. It's awful and hopefully the violence will start to slow down over there so our troops and the innocent Iraqi's can start focusing on what really matters (training the Iraqi forces, strengthening the government, rebuilding towns, getting more electricity and water, etc).

As for the "debate"; Riot, you dont debate 3/4 of the time. occasionally you give sources and semi-thought out posts and there i applaud you. But here's what you have to remember: not all sources are reliable to everyone. Some people believe every word of US Press. Some people only read european....also remember everyone has bias, its impossible to eliminate. But what you need to do to make you believe you are debating rather than preaching? DO NOT JUDGE when we disagree. If you want debate rather than arguing; everyone must keep an open mind. I listen to all sides when a logical argument can be presented. For instance if we look back to the "Smoke it Up" thread me and christopherson went at it for awhile. While we got HEATED, i dont believe we ever once didnt actually listen to what the other guy was saying. We saw what they said, and made our rebuttal, using different logic/arguments each time. Your logic tends to always be the same. I'm all for supporting our country, hell i even agree this is the greatest place in the world. But being a citizen also gives me the right to disagree with whoever whenever and not be judged.


I am here at your feet asking you for help. I love getting into these debates because I learn something new every time. I don't want you guys to think I'm sitting here with automated responses and not reading your guys posts. I read them twice (sometimes even three times) before I make my response. I'm replying back because that is what a debate is, to me, and it is fun. I thought it would be entertaining and I figured everyone was having fun with it not just me due to the volume of replies.

You guys say I don't debate because most my posts are "preachings". I don't understand how I can be more debateful. I read some of the replies I get and some of them are rather harsh and they attack me for not only my opinion but for my intelligence. It's hard not to fire back and come off as upset. I feel I'm just replying back. What am I doing wrong what is turning everyone off? I am voicing my opinion just like you guys. I state my opinion as fact because in my head it is fact. You guys state your opinion as fact because in your head it is fact. I'm not differente than anyone else. I don't think it is because of my debating methods or style that so many people are turned off by me. I don't think it's my fiery attitude or reponses that has everyone so upset. I think it is just my opinion that everyone is sick of. I'm sorry to hear that and I never meant for it to get out of hand. I didn't realize people could get so sick of hearing someone from the opposite view point on a lot of important issues in our world.

I'm sorry.
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Riot
WHAT DA F?!?! CHEEZITS!?
 
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