Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:47 am
Friday's NBC Nightly News included a story from my colleague and friend Richard Engel, who was embedded with an active duty Army infantry battalion from Fort Lewis, Washington.
Engel relayed how "troops here say they are increasingly frustrated by American criticism of the war. Many take it personally, believing it is also criticism of what they've been fighting for."
First up was 21 year old junior enlisted man Tyler Johnson, whom Engel said was frustrated about war skepticism and thinks that critics "should come over and see what it's like firsthand before criticizing."
"You may support or say we support the troops, but, so you're not supporting what they do, what they're here sweating for, what we bleed for, what we die for. It just don't make sense to me," Johnson said.
Next up was Staff Sergeant Manuel Sahagun, who is on his second tour in Iraq. He complained that "one thing I don't like is when people back home say they support the troops, but they don't support the war. If they're going to support us, support us all the way."
Next was Specialist Peter Manna: "If they don't think we're doing a good job, everything that we've done here is all in vain," he said.
These soldiers should be grateful that the American public, which by all polls overwhelmingly disapproves of the Iraq war and the President's handling of it, do still offer their support to them, and their respect.
Through every Abu Ghraib and Haditha, through every rape and murder, the American public has indulged those in uniform, accepting that the incidents were the product of bad apples or even of some administration or command order.
So, we pay the soldiers a decent wage, take care of their families, provide them with housing and medical care and vast social support systems and ship obscene amenities into the war zone for them, we support them in every possible way, and their attitude is that we should in addition roll over and play dead, defer to the military and the generals and let them fight their war, and give up our rights and responsibilities to speak up because they are above society?
But it is the United States, and the recent NBC report is just an ugly reminder of the price we pay for a mercenary - oops sorry, volunteer - force that thinks it is doing the dirty work.
America needs to ponder what it is we really owe those in uniform.
Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:17 am
Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:28 am
Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:36 am
Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:43 am
bigh0rt wrote:I support our troops in that I wish them the best, and don't wish to see them die unnecessarily or be injured, etc. So in that regard, yes, I do support them; while at the same time not supporting the war. As for the people who want to cut funds, you conveniently left out the part where those said people also want to bring the troops home, thus alleviating the cost of the war. There's very few people lobbying to keep the number of troops over there who are there, but cut funding, and while such people do exist I'm sure, they are the vast minority; but mentioning that wouldn't really help your agenda.
Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:10 am
Steve [The Spiderman] wrote:So what you suggest is to pull the troops as well as funding, leaving Iraq in a state worse then when we entered...sounds brilliant.
Sun Feb 04, 2007 8:08 am
Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:36 am
So you don't like to debate with me because I call heartless killers "evil"? I think evil is a pretty damn good choice of words if you ask me.
Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:11 am
Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:12 am
Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:14 am
Joe' wrote:We all know you suck Bush's dick 24/7, Riot. There's no need to make a new thread every week to clarify it.
Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:24 am
Riot wrote:Joe' wrote:We all know you suck Bush's dick 24/7, Riot. There's no need to make a new thread every week to clarify it.
I didn't mention President Bush in this thread at all. Did you read the thread at all? This is about a writer for the Washington Post attacking our troops saying we don't owe them anything and how they should be grateful.
Sometimes I think people have automated responses for whenever I post and don't even read my threads anymore.
Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:15 pm
Joe' wrote:Also, I'd like to ask you something, maybe it's just me but I noticed you always respond to those who don't agree with you in quite an aggressive way. Now, you are the one who says one should be free to do or say whatever the fuck he wants, so why do you keep attacking everyone that doesn't agree with you?
Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:48 pm
Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:54 pm
Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:02 pm
Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:04 pm
RyanP wrote:and to see what that war did to him is reason enough not to support the war for me.
Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:25 pm
Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:33 pm
Have you ever been a positive contributor to anything in your entire life? I don't think I have ever seen a productive post from you in my time here at the forums. It seems like every time I log in and write down my opinion you come on here only to attack it. You never, ever get into a real debate with the issues besides calling me names and throwing a few pot shots.
You are a joke. You attack and insult and use this as your only means of debate. You say I lack common sense. You say I'm misguided. You say I'm ignorant. You say I'm a no good flag waver. You will say anything you want in regards to me and my beliefs. You've never said anything productive in these threads so why in the world do you even open them? I don't care about you and your fucking ignorant opinions about me. I don't care about how you know the ins and outs of the world and I'm just a naive little twit living in my own make believe world. If you don't want to have a healthy, constructive debate then please get the hell out of here. I am sick to death of you.
Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:37 pm
Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:05 pm
Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:56 pm
el badman wrote:And who the fuck do you think you are? From what I can read so far, you're just a stupid brat who doesn't know shit about anything and yet feels like enlightening everyone about the same bullshit.
Talking about making productive posts in this forum, when was the last time you did that? I guess you just chose a random online forum to vomit your ignorant views, I still haven't seen any valid post from you trying to help people with this game, or releasing patches. You're obviously just here to defend the propaganda you're brainwashed about. You're obviously free to do that, but don't expect other posters to agree with your nonsense, or even to shut up in case they don't agree with you.
A healthy debate? How could it even be that way with the kind of shit you post or reply?
If you manage to find the missing half of your brain, then maybe we'll have a healthy debate.
Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:57 pm
Riot wrote:So you don't like to debate with me because I call heartless killers "evil"? I think evil is a pretty damn good choice of words if you ask me.
Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:37 pm
Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:57 am
illini wrote:IM SICK OF THIS SHIT RIOT. Sorry dude. I know they attacked us, i know they are out for you me and everyone else we'd consider in the free world. BUT DID YOU EVER FUCKING CONSIDER FOR A SECOND THEIR VIEW? as misguided as it may be; they believe in something enough to die for it which is more than 3/4 of the world can sa. I'm not supporting terrorism whatsoever; if they truly knew the depths of islam they would know that the killing solves nothing and gets them nowhere. But why is it wrong for them to believe in their cause? why is it evil? the killing is evil, but how do you know their heartless? i'm sure just as many of them have families and other bits of their lives they hope to improve and help in the future through their jihad and activism.
Now as for the rest of this thread although i know i'm probly going to get roasted by riot/benji/christopherson.
IT IS FULLY POSSIBLE TO SUPPORT THE TROOPS AND NOT THE WAR. From my understanding, the troops for the most part didnt say "i sign up to go to Iraq and do exactly as i'm told whether or not i'm very well liked for this fact" Sure some did sign up to help specifically with this war but i belive they are few and far between. As it is; they're just doing their job. We cannot fault them for doing their job whether or not we agree with the cause. I wish them the best, none of them injured, none of them with Post Traumatic Stess Disorder (thats the term you wanted Riot, and yes it does happen with every war), i want them all back safe and sound to their families as soon as possible. Is that so wrong? I'm not saying we dont need to finish the job; i'm just hoping the best of luck for the unlucky people who DO go to combat etc.
However i'm putting this, take it as you will. We've been looking at a recent spike in disabled sports....lots of new athletes are coming in. I'll give you one guess where they were less than a year ago. Now while this is good for my sport getting fresh blood do i wish that trauma or pain on anyone (dealing with becoming disabled) or their family? of course not. Casualties may be low; but the wounded is some ludicrous number and for a war that was "over", thats just not right.
As for the "debate"; Riot, you dont debate 3/4 of the time. occasionally you give sources and semi-thought out posts and there i applaud you. But here's what you have to remember: not all sources are reliable to everyone. Some people believe every word of US Press. Some people only read european....also remember everyone has bias, its impossible to eliminate. But what you need to do to make you believe you are debating rather than preaching? DO NOT JUDGE when we disagree. If you want debate rather than arguing; everyone must keep an open mind. I listen to all sides when a logical argument can be presented. For instance if we look back to the "Smoke it Up" thread me and christopherson went at it for awhile. While we got HEATED, i dont believe we ever once didnt actually listen to what the other guy was saying. We saw what they said, and made our rebuttal, using different logic/arguments each time. Your logic tends to always be the same. I'm all for supporting our country, hell i even agree this is the greatest place in the world. But being a citizen also gives me the right to disagree with whoever whenever and not be judged.