The "Old Skool Baller" Thread

[Jeffx]

Talk about some of your favorite cats from the past, doesn't matter if they're well-known or not.

I'll start with one of my favorites, former Tar Hell/ABA/NBA legend Bobby Jones. One of the best defenders I ever saw on the court, and he could score when he had to. He played 'D' the old-fashioned way, using his feet, quickness and hustle to stay in front of opponents. He was an early version of Tayshaun Prince, those tall, lanky defenders. After going against Dr. J for years, he was traded to Philly and was a crucial part of that '83 championship team.

[Andrew]

Normally I'd opt for Michael Jordan in this situation but I'd rather not turn the thread into another "Jordan vs Everyone" debate and it's probably more interesting if we steer away from some of the obvious choices.

In that spirit I'm inclined to bring up Shawn Kemp, who is still well-known but not quite in the same class as Jordan, Pippen, Barkley, Magic, Bird etc when talking about classic choices for favourite players of the past for my generation. Kemp was my cousin's favourite and became one of my favourite players outside the Bulls as well. Teaming up with Gary Payton, they dominated the highlight reels through 1997 and individually speaking, he was an exciting player to watch and someone who had a good story, bypassing college and continuing to pave the way for players who would make the jump years later.

I'd also say he was an early example of the "new" power forwards that became more common later into the 90s. He had the post game and the strength you'd expect of a player at his position but he had stronger ballhandling skills than you'd expect of a big man and though he was best known for his dunks, showed a fair bit of range on his jumpshot, even knocking down the odd three pointer every so often. He was closer to the "traditional" power forward prototype than some of the players that followed him but I think he popularised some guard-like tendencies amongst big men.

[The X]

I'll list a few....

C Hakeem Olajuwon, although very well known, thought he deserved a mention....his Dream Shake, & other moves in his prime just left me in awe....he made guys like The Admiral, Ewing & Shaq look bad....that says a lot....he did everything on the court, scored, rebounded, assisted, blocks, steals, you name it, Dream could do it....outside of maybe the 3 point shot, which I have no doubt he could've developed if he wanted to....

PF Brian Grant from his Sacramento days & to a lesser extent his Portland days....I don't know, maybe I just like the PF's that Xavier produces or something....when he entered the league, he didn't have too high expectations on him, but he really just stuck out & made me go wow....he was tough, fairly athletic & always played hard....he would develop a nice midrange jumper too....it's a shame injuries took away a chunk of the athleticism he had in his first couple of seasons....

SF/PF John Wallace....was just a big fan of his from the moment I saw him as a college senior at Syracuse in the team's magical NCAA Tournament run....was sad to see him drop in draft so far & then have a disappointing NBA career....Wallace was a bit of a tweener in pros....he played as more inside as PF in college, but due to his size (6'8"/6'9"), he would have to transition more to the wings....I think in the end, his so-called attitude & poor defensive habits ended his career prematurely....but I'll always remember that tournament run & his nice midrange game....

SF Cedric Ceballos when he was with his Lakers....boy he could flat out score the ball....the ultimate garbageman, as he never had a play called for him & still averaged 20ppg....I just liked his ability to finish around the hoop....along with Nick the Quick, Anthony Peeler & Eddie Jones, he helped bring "Showtime" back to LA....

SG Latrell Sprewell from his Warriors (pre-choking of Carleismo) days....he was so athletic & loved his 2-handed tomahawk dunks....he did a bit of everything....

[NovU]

Mitch Richmond. Perfect Shooting Form and a Tough Defender

He was on NBA Live 97 PC game cover or something as I remember.

[Bruce]

I am going to follow the x to make my picks per position and follow andrew to avoid picking superstars.

C - Bill Laimbeer - Damn you would love him if he was your teammate. Enforcer type players for me makes it easier for teammates to score by beating the cream out of the opposing team. Even though he was mostly relegated to play outside, he was physical on D, and made hard pick and rolls. Being physical was part of what it was to be an 80's NBA big man.

PF - Horace Grant - for the PF slot, I like players who have enough bulk to face opposing centers and has great ability playing help D.

SF - Sean Elliot - Never mind that I hate the Spurs and never mind that this guy was a survivor of a kidney disease. I've always liked players who play SF to have good size, decent rebounding skills, quick enough to make cuts through the defense. These days, one of my favorites playing this spot is Granger.

SG - Drazen Petrovic - For the 2 spot, I've always liked players with good size and can hit the outside shots. This guy was a superstar in Europe, but did not realize his full potential in the NBA, because he passed early.

PG - Mark Jackson - At the PG spot I really hate having those drive to the hoop/shoot first PGs. Because when they drive to the hoop they tend to get knocked around. and there is no telling when they will get injured or when they will be out. Plus, always if I am rooting for a team, I'd want the PG to have decent 3 pt range.

Bench - Kevin Willis/Toni Kukoc/Brian Shaw

[Kenny]

SG Latrell Sprewell from his Warriors (pre-choking of Carleismo) days....he was so athletic & loved his 2-handed tomahawk dunks....he did a bit of everything....

I thought Spree was just as good during his days at the Knicks. Carleisimo is known to be pretty aggressive towards his players and hey... one of them just snapped one day... it was bound to happen.

Along with Spree, I thought Larry Johnson was an integral part of that team. Larry Johnson had a great skills and a heart to match. Definitely one of my favourite players of the era.

Danny Manning and Clifford Robinson are worth a mention too. Both solid contributors off the bench for their respective teams. On that note, I also liked Toni Kukoc a lot. Along with Petrovic he helped to pave the way for some of the great Euro ballers to come into the league. An excellent 3rd option during the Bulls dynasty. These three players all deserved their 6th man awards.

There's heaps of others I'm sure, I just can't think of them right now.

[The X]

SG Latrell Sprewell from his Warriors (pre-choking of Carleismo) days....he was so athletic & loved his 2-handed tomahawk dunks....he did a bit of everything....

I thought Spree was just as good during his days at the Knicks. Carleisimo is known to be pretty aggressive towards his players and hey... one of them just snapped one day... it was bound to happen.

Although I liked Spree also in NY, I can't share your sentiments....I liked him more in more free-flowing offense of the Warriors....I don't think the year or so layoff from choking helped him either....he was also more injury prone once he had hit the Knicks....

as for Spree snapping, I wouldn't condone it or any other player choking their coach....there's snapping & then there's snapping....no excuses, & it shouldn't have happened, regardless of how much of an idiot Carleisimo might be....

[diddy]

i didn't watched 90's basketball games, but i would say i J-will in sacramento, muggsy bogues and Magic Johnson!

[The X]

i didn't watched 90's basketball games, but i would say i J-will in sacramento, muggsy bogues and Magic Johnson!

yep, I was gonna mention White Chocolate....especially as a rookie starting PG for Kings....he just came in & had no fear....the things he did were like "wow....

on the topic of old school ballers, how about "Pistol" Pete Maravich....career college scoring record of about 44ppg over his career at LSU....amazing....if some of you haven't checked out his highlights, you definitely should....he was ahead of his time with some of the stuff he could do with the ball....

[Jeffx]

Bernard King - one of my all-time favorite Knicks, despite being with the team for a short time. Who could forget that magical 83-84 season? This man singlehandedly put the Knicks on his back and took us to seven games against Boston in the 84 eastern conference finals. When healthy, the man was unstoppable, a "scoring machine", as Hubie Brown said. It's a crime he wasn't included among the NBA's the 50 Greatest Players. BK would have schooled half the cats on that list. It's a shame he never got a chance to play with Patrick.

'Downtown' Freddie Brown - valuable sixth man on those great Sonic teams that went to back-to-back finals in '78 & '79. Deadly from deep - for him, that was a layup. He was part of an awesome scoring trio with Gus 'the Wizard' Williams and Dennis Johnson.

[Andrew]

That 50 Greatest list snubbed a few very deserving players, Dominique Wilkins is someone else that really should have been included.

[The X]

'Downtown' Freddie Brown - valuable sixth man on those great Sonic teams that went to back-to-back finals in '78 & '79. Deadly from deep - for him, that was a layup. He was part of an awesome scoring trio with Gus 'the Wizard' Williams and Dennis Johnson.

Didn't Freddie Brown play most of his career (& get his number retired) for the Indiana Pacers?

That 50 Greatest list snubbed a few very deserving players, Dominique Wilkins is someone else that really should have been included.

yeah, that was ridiculous....even more ridiculous that he wasn't inducted into HOF in his 1st year of eligibility....I think it comes down from him not winning a title or going to NBA Finals....

[Jeffx]

Didn't Freddie Brown play most of his career (& get his number retired) for the Indiana Pacers?

No, he played his entire 13-year career with Seattle.

[Andrew]

yeah, that was ridiculous....even more ridiculous that he wasn't inducted into HOF in his 1st year of eligibility....I think it comes down from him not winning a title or going to NBA Finals....

Agreed. There were attempts to explain the reasoning as that particular class making more of an effort to honour coaches and contributors but to leave players out, particularly one of Nique's stature, was just wrong. He handled it with dignity though and I certainly admire him for that.

[Clueminati017]

yeah, that was ridiculous....even more ridiculous that he wasn't inducted into HOF in his 1st year of eligibility....I think it comes down from him not winning a title or going to NBA Finals....

Agreed. There were attempts to explain the reasoning as that particular class making more of an effort to honour coaches and contributors but to leave players out, particularly one of Nique's stature, was just wrong. He handled it with dignity though and I certainly admire him for that.

Nique was very overlooked on being one of the Top 50 Greatest Players that ever played. I mean he didn't get a ring in the NBA, but he was a gold medalist on Dream Team II. He led the league in points over Larry Bird and Michael Jordan, and he wasn't respected as one of the Top 50. So, why can't he get credit on being in the Top 50 Greatest. He won a title in Europe after he left the NBA and marked his name with a team overseas. Where's the love and respect on that one?

Knick fans... I know you want to say this if you're one of the people who thinks this. Why does anyone never believe that Michael Ray Richardson was the first premiere style point guard before Ervin "Magic" Johnson? In ways Chris Rock made a point where no one gave him credit not because of his drug problem, and where he bounced back in ways that he was something the Knick fans applauded. Although, he was overlooked because of his age where he was getting old, and Magic is the fresh face coming in the NBA. This guy also played overseas to win a championship just to avoid all problems from the life he was living in the NBA due to the drug problem. He had a chance for him to come back because of David Stern wanted him back in the league, but he was doing his thing more out in Europe than in America.

Conclusion... If Reggie Lewis and Len Bias was living. They would've been the best dynamic duo on the court along with the names of Magic-Kareem, Jordan-Pippen, Cousy-Russell, Havilicek-Russell, Chamberlain-West, Olajuwon-Sampson, Wilkins-Willis, Bird-Parrish or McHale, Olajuwon-Drexler, Frazier-Monroe or DeBusschere, Robinson-Duncan, and so on down the line.

[Kenny]

I always liked Dennis Scott of the Magic. He had a deadly perimeter shot but I completely lost track of his career. I liked Nick Anderson as well... the Magic team of the 90s was great actually.

Dennis Rodman also comes to mind. One of the best defenders the league has seen. Did the dirty work on the defensive end... every team needs a guy like that.

[Clueminati017]

I always would like to have three posters and some starter jackets.

-The first poster of George Gervin sitting on a throne that looks like a block of ice.

-The second poster of Tim Duncan that says "The Iceman 2000" which it was like paying respect to the Iceman himself where he sitting on a throne.

-The infamous Michael Jordan Chicago Skyline poster where it shows him looking like he's soaring through the city of Chicago at night.

Plus, those varsity jackets from starter that had Isaiah Thomas, Julius Erving, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, and other stars on the back with the team logo on the front.

I agree that the Magic team of the 90s were great, and well assembled although they played a tough team against the Houston Rockets. Which Hakeem Olajuwon dominated.

[The X]

Didn't Freddie Brown play most of his career (& get his number retired) for the Indiana Pacers?

No, he played his entire 13-year career with Seattle.

my bad, I must of been thinking about Roger Brown, whose name I came across when working on some legends rosters for 2k9....

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nro01.html

Knick fans... I know you want to say this if you're one of the people who thinks this. Why does anyone never believe that Michael Ray Richardson was the first premiere style point guard before Ervin "Magic" Johnson? In ways Chris Rock made a point where no one gave him credit not because of his drug problem, and where he bounced back in ways that he was something the Knick fans applauded. Although, he was overlooked because of his age where he was getting old, and Magic is the fresh face coming in the NBA. This guy also played overseas to win a championship just to avoid all problems from the life he was living in the NBA due to the drug problem. He had a chance for him to come back because of David Stern wanted him back in the league, but he was doing his thing more out in Europe than in America.

I don't know much about Michael Ray except he was really good then out of league due to drug problem....I knew he played for Knicks & Nets....which team would you more associate his play with?!?

[Matthew]

Isaiah Thomas. He was such a ruthless leader on one of the toughest teams of all time. He was the smallest player on that team but the leader, and really the only one who was able to beat Jordan consistently in his career. Such a warrior, so skilled and simply amazing.

Dennis Rodman. This guy was so underrated, and yet despite the hair, the cross dressing, the technical fouls, he was the epitome of a type old school player. To me, he is the closest thing to Bill Russel we have ever seen since the best winner in team sports history. Now I know he wasn't a great shot blocker, but you look at how he could impact a game without really touching the ball on the offensive end (except to get offensive boards) and his ability to guard every position well and that's where I get that comparison from. He guarded Shaq in the 96 playoffs. He guarded Malone in the 97 and 98 finals. He guarded Larry Bird when Detroit was battling Boston for supremacy in the East. He Guarded Magic in the Finals. And he guarded Jordan when the Pistons were beating the Bulls.

I can't think of any athlete in any sport that has guarded what you could argue is the best at their positions of all time. Some argue Shaq is the best centre ever. Some can argue Malone is the best power forward ever. Bird, Jordan and Magic are pretty unanimous as the best at their positions. But even if you don't think Shaq and Malone are the best at their spots (and that would be myself included), you can't argue they are very, very good players and Rodman did slow them down in critical times, the playoffs.

And I haven't even mentioned his unbelievable rebounding numbers at his height. Beginning in the 90-91 season til his last season with the Bulls he didn't average less then 12.5 rebounds per game.

90-91 12.5 rpg
91-92 18.7 rpg
92-93 18.3 rpg
93-94 17.3 rpg
94-95 16.8 rpg
95-96 14.9 rpg
96-96 16.1 rpg
97-98 15.0 rpg

Those numbers are Godly. Even in his failed stints with the Lakers and Mavericks he put up impressive rebounding numbers, 11.2 rpg and 14.3 rpg respectively. That's just insane. It's easy to see why he won 5 championships, but its not easy to see why he only had 2 all star appearances and only 7 all nba first team. I'd have him there every season from 89 onwards until 98.

I rate Rodman high. I put him in my top 25 all time and I have him in my top 5 power forwards so far, with only Duncan, Malone, KG the only ones I concede defiantly being ahead of him. Anyone else I'd argue for Rodman.

[Kenny]

Rodman's definitely one of my favourite power forwards. It's a shame his antics became more publicised than his play. Those rebounding numbers are insane, particularly from 91-93... 18 rebounds a game! Insanity.

[Clueminati017]

Didn't Freddie Brown play most of his career (& get his number retired) for the Indiana Pacers?

No, he played his entire 13-year career with Seattle.

my bad, I must of been thinking about Roger Brown, whose name I came across when working on some legends rosters for 2k9....

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nro01.html

Knick fans... I know you want to say this if you're one of the people who thinks this. Why does anyone never believe that Michael Ray Richardson was the first premiere style point guard before Ervin "Magic" Johnson? In ways Chris Rock made a point where no one gave him credit not because of his drug problem, and where he bounced back in ways that he was something the Knick fans applauded. Although, he was overlooked because of his age where he was getting old, and Magic is the fresh face coming in the NBA. This guy also played overseas to win a championship just to avoid all problems from the life he was living in the NBA due to the drug problem. He had a chance for him to come back because of David Stern wanted him back in the league, but he was doing his thing more out in Europe than in America.

I don't know much about Michael Ray except he was really good then out of league due to drug problem....I knew he played for Knicks & Nets....which team would you more associate his play with?!?

He shined more he was with the Nets I believe because of the Magic Johnson era that became a jealous like upstart for him.

[Skills]

The most obvious favorites of mine are already up there (Jordan, Magic etc.), or will probably be mentioned later on in the thread (The Admiral, Penny Hardaway). But there's a few of my faves that are set apart from the average old school favorites listed already.

Xavier McDaniel: X-Man was such an energetic baller in his time, and one of the few players who could shut down Jordan. He's probably best known for his fight with Charles Oakley and his encounter with MJ in the 91-92 playoffs. He had a superb career in Seattle, and is one of the best players in Sonics history, and also one of the most underrated.

Bob McAdoo: The best player in Buffalo Braves history. Too bad when the Braves packed their bags to LA to become the Clippers, McAdoo started declining after his three year stint in New York and his two years with the Celtics and Pistons.

Manute Bol: Haha, I loved this guy. He was so frigging tall! I remember watching some highlights of him. He could block shots no doubt, and he could even hit the three ball without jumping. He probably only did it once, but it was still pretty sweet.

And of course, you can't forget Yinka Dare.

[Andrew]

He did a little better than that, he even knocked down 20/91 from downtown in the 1989 season (yes, I did have to look that one up ) and made 43/205 in his career, a respectable 21% for a 7'7" centre.

[The X]

on the topic of tall players, I didn't actually mind 7'7" Gheorghe Muresan of the Washington Bullets....heck, I know I can't be the only one who wanted him to succeed on the court

[Andrew]

Injuries and the brevity of it aside, he had a decent career with a couple of good seasons for the Bullets.