Obama vs. McCain

[Andrew]

I'll admit I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to politics, especially those of the United States but how could candidates standing in an election in 2008 possibly debate the Vietnam War with any relevance to today's issues? Obviously, as a key event in the last century it does have some significance in so much as history's tendency to repeat itself and what we can learn from it, but it does seem debating Vietnam outside a historical context is irrelevant to the issues in today's society. What spin do they put on it to make it seem like a worthwhile argument?

[benji]

What spin do they put on it to make it seem like a worthwhile argument?

They aren't debating Vietnam really, nor was Vietnam being debated in 2004. It's just the event around which all the stupid crap is orbiting.

In 2004, John F. Kerry basically kept claiming he was better suited to be President because he served in Vietnam while George W. Bush didn't. He made the focus of his campaign and his convention his two month service in Vietnam on a swift boat, and Democratic operatives tried to attack Bush because he hadn't served over there during the war. (Nor had Clinton or Cheney who both got educational deferments...and Gore was basically a photographer.) They weren't getting much traction on the current war, so they decided to go back thirty-five years and try a different one.

Kerry's military record (and post-Vietnam record) was full of some questionable things and a group opposed to him went after these things in 2004. Writing a book, making ads, a media firestorm, etc. Democrats considered this a "dirty Republican trick" and now want to payback the Republicans because John McCain served in Vietnam. It is not a central aspect to McCain's case to be President (instead his far more questionable Senate service is) but is how he rose to fame overall.

Now some airhead former General (Wesley Clark) did as he usually does and stuck his foot in his mouth and insulted McCain's time as a POW. So the McCain team fired back at him, and some other Vietnam stooges came out of the woodwork and defended/attacked McCain.

In essence it goes like this:
In 2004, because the Democrat had served in Vietnam, military service is the most important thing ever and anyone who didn't serve should shut up.
In 2008 (as in 1992 and 1996), because the Democratic candidate didn't, it is not only completely irrelevant but probably detrimental to choosing a President. (As some armchair psychologists who keep claiming McCain is paranoid and thinks he's still in the jungles of Vietnam and thus will snap at any moment would argue. Whereas the guy who had compeletely false memories that were seared, SEARED, into his memory was "the model of sanity" four years ago.)
In other words, if your candidate was in Vietnam, this = super important, otherwise this = irrelevant.

The difference here as compared to 1992 and 1996 is that McCain hasn't really run on his military record as a reason to elect him President in the General or used it as a bludgon against his opponent. In the primaries he went after Romney and Giuliani using it relentlessly, but they've accepted it wouldn't work against Obama and have downgraded it to "biography" status.

[Andrew]

I see, thanks for clearing that up.

[benji]

Fascism We Can Believe In Update:

"Loving your country shouldn't just mean watching fireworks on the 4th of July," [Obama] said in a speech in Colorado Springs, Colo. "Loving your country must mean accepting your responsibility to do your part to change it. If you do, your life will be richer, our country will be stronger."
...
"I won't just ask for your vote as a candidate," he said. "I will ask for your service and your active citizenship when I'm president of the United States. This won't be a call issued in one speech or one program. I want this to be a central cause of my presidency. We will ask Americans to serve. We will create new opportunities for Americans to serve."
...
"We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we've set," he said. "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well funded."

[Andrew]

Forgive my ignorance once again, but is he alluding to mandatory military service of some kind or simply creating more defense jobs and encouraging people to follow that path?

[Patr1ck]

Sounds like he is "asking", but it remains to be seen how mandatory the request is.

[puttincomputers]

can anyone tell me what some of barak obamas accomplishments would be? also how may days has he actually worked for his own people will in office?

[benji]

Well, he "organized" communities. And he um...well, he quickly moved up in the ranks without ever doing anything. That's certainly an accomplishment. Oh, he also got everyone else thrown off the ballot in his first State Senate race.

Forgive my ignorance once again, but is he alluding to mandatory military service of some kind or simply creating more defense jobs and encouraging people to follow that path?

Neither. A civilian national security force. (Our military is a professional body and while they are civilians nobody would ever call it a "civilian force." So he's obviously alluding to something else.) I have no idea what that would be like, but it sounds like something that existed in Italy or Germany some decades back.

He clearly wants to mobilize civilians to fight his war against cynicism and bring "unity" to the country by any means necessary. He is just that amazing and messianic. It is why he considers himself answerable only to the "steady gaze of [his] own conscience. "

[benji]

Obama Surge!
January 2007:

I am not persuaded that 20,000 additional troops in Iraq is going to solve the sectarian violence there. In fact, I think it will do the reverse.

March 2007:

[E]ven those who are supporting -- but here's the thing, Larry -- even those who support the escalation have acknowledged that 20,000, 30,000, even 40,000 more troops placed temporarily in places like Baghdad are not going to make a long-term difference.

July 2007:

Here's what we know. The surge has not worked. And they said today, 'Well, even in September, we're going to need more time.' So we're going to kick this can all the way down to the next president, under the president's plan.
...
My assessment is that the surge has not worked and we will not see a different report eight weeks from now.

November 2007:

Finally, in 2006-2007, we started to see that, even after an election, George Bush continued to want to pursue a course that didn't withdraw troops from Iraq but actually doubled them and initiated a surge and at that stage I said very clearly, not only have we not seen improvements, but we're actually worsening, potentially, a situation there.

January 2008:

I had no doubt, and I said when I opposed the surge, that given how wonderfully our troops perform, if we place 30,000 more troops in there, then we would see an improvement in the security situation and we would see a reduction in the violence.

July 2008:

In the 18 months since President Bush announced the surge, our troops have performed heroically in bringing down the level of violence. New tactics have protected the Iraqi population, and the Sunni tribes have rejected Al Qaeda — greatly weakening its effectiveness.

But the same factors that led me to oppose the surge still hold true.

I don't know what I expect from the guy who has already stated he wants to end the "idea" of national security and unilaterally invade Pakistan.

[Andrew]

Neither. A civilian national security force. (Our military is a professional body and while they are civilians nobody would ever call it a "civilian force." So he's obviously alluding to something else.) I have no idea what that would be like, but it sounds like something that existed in Italy or Germany some decades back.

Well, that's what confuses me as whatever he's alluding to sounds very much like mandatory military service. Whatever he's actually talking about, he seems to be suggesting it will be an obligation, not a choice. I'm surprised anyone would run on such a platform as I'm guessing it wouldn't be a popular idea.

[benji]

Fascism is always a popular idea. Especially with a demagogue like Obama at the helm.

[cyanide]

"We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well funded."

Hmmm... I'm trying to understand what he really means here. It's too vague, but on the surface, it sounds like either he wants everybody to be packing guns and armour, or be more aware that Americans are in greater danger than ever before.

[benji]

Obama's 'emergency' economic plan

Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) on Friday announced an “Emergency Economic Plan” that would give families a stimulus check of $1,000 each, funded in part by what his presidential campaign calls “windfall profits from Big Oil.”
...
“We need to do more,” Obama said in a statement. “That’s why today I’m announcing a two-part emergency plan to help struggling families make ends meet and get our economy back on track.

Emergency! Emergency! 2% economic growth last quarter! It's a crisis! We need moar government!

Friday’s proposal says Obama “is proposing to offset the cost of his emergency energy rebates over the next five years by enacting a windfall profits tax on big oil companies.”

America, where there's such a thing as "too much success"!

“Obama simply asks that big oil companies contribute a reasonable share of the windfall profits they receive from high oil prices over the next five years to pay for emergency assistance for families right now,” the campaign says.

America, where volunteering is mandatory.

Ever notice that your wife or mother will ask you "Want to do the dishes?" or "Want to clean [whatever]?" but you can't actually say "no"? This, apparently is the Obama plan. Where you're "simply" asked to do something, but you can't refuse.

Meanwhile, in actually elected people: Pelosi turns out the lights in the House instead of debating or voting on drilling.

[benji]

LOL. Joe Biden.

[Indy]

No matter who wins the US will continue to follow a hegemonic foriegn policy and do more harm than good to the world in all aspects.

[benji]

Hmmm.

[shadowgrin]

benji, stop spamming with one word post! I demand you post your opinion! Stop thinking highly of yourself.

[cyanide]

Other than what the media says about Joe Biden, benji, what are the pros and cons of Barack picking Joe Biden?

[Skills]

I felt it would be appropriate to post this.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65I0HNvTDH4[/youtube]

[benji]

I don't know why, it's only been posted on here a couple times already.

Other than what the media says about Joe Biden, benji, what are the pros and cons of Barack picking Joe Biden?

There are pros? I guess it might comfort some people concerned about Obama's lack of thick resume. And Biden is better than Hillary and others if you actually want to govern as Biden won't spend four years trying to undermine him. But based on the polls right now, Barry might be getting ahead of himself there.

But the cons?
-Puts a nail in the coffin for the absurd "change" meme. As soon as Obama started proposing the same policies as Michael Dukakis, rational people jumped ship. Now anyone else not in the Obama cult or rabid Democrats can realize it's an unserious mantra used entirely for a power grab. (People like to believe politicans, and then whine later how untrustworthy they are.) Unless they're going to claim 36 years in Washington is someone who is an "change agent" against the "old Washington" politics.

-Completes the "right-ward" shift on Iraq. Biden has long supported the war, and the plan he proposed against the Surge would've involved the US in Iraq more, not less. (And divided Iraq into three countries along ethnic or sectarian lines, depending on if Biden was in the mood to eliminate Iraq completely or not.) Although, Biden is not well liked in Iraq because of this.

-Opens Obama to the charge that Biden is the real President, and Obama is just the idiot face they put in front. Like many believe Bush/Cheney to be. (Seen this one a ton on non-Obama cultist Left blogs this weekend.)

-Takes away Obama's attacks on McCain for his age (Biden is like five or six years younger), time in Washington (only four Senators are more senior than Biden, and McCain isn't one of them, Biden ran for President in 1988 after 16 years in Washington), lobbyist ties (Biden is often referred to as the senator from MBNA) and support for Iraq.

-Certainly doubles the number of gaffes to come out of the campaign. Some Biden classics (ignoring the obvious plagarism ones, a charge also leveled against Obama):

A blandly handsome man in a pilot's cap steps forward and asks Biden to help pass emergency benefits for laid-off airline workers. Biden nods as the men and women cluster around him with fawning smiles. Then he speaks. "I hope you will support my work on Amtrak as much as I have supported you," he begins. (Biden rides Amtrak to work every day and is obsessed with the railroad.) "If not, I will screw you badly."


A dozen faces fall in unison as Biden lectures on. "You've not been good to me. You're also damn selfish. You better listen to me..." It goes on like this for a couple of minutes. Strangely, Biden keeps grinning--even fraternally slapping the stunned man's shoulder a couple of times. When we finally head into the building, Biden's communications director, Norm Kurz, turns to me. "What you just witnessed is classic Senator Biden."

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIT3jUrNTX0[/youtube]
And his second most famous:

Claremont, New Hampshire to a question about his law school record from a man identified only as ''Frank.'' Biden looked at his questioner and said: ''I think I have a much higher I.Q. than you do.''

Biden of course couldn't leave it at that. He is not known for his concision or care with the facts. He added that he ''went to law school on a full academic scholarship — the only one in my class to have a full academic scholarship.'' He also said that he ''ended up in the top half'' of his class and won a prize in an international moot court competition. Biden still wasn't done. In college, Biden said, he was ''the outstanding student in the political science department'' and ''graduated with three degrees from college.''

Reed then turns to Biden's subsequent statement on this exchange. At Syracuse College of Law, Biden graduated 76th in a class of 85. He acknowledged: ''I did not graduate in the top half of my class at law school and my recollection of this was inacurate.'' Just a slip of memory.

As for receiving three degrees, Biden conceded: ''I graduated from the University of Delaware with a double major in history and political science. My reference to degrees at the Claremont event was intended to refer to these majors — I said 'three' and should have said 'two.''' His arithmetic was off.
...
As for his claim that he went to school on full academic scholarship: ''My recollection is — and I'd have to confirm this — but I don't recall paying any money to go to law school.'' Reed cites a Newsweek report that Biden had gone to Syracuse ''on half scholarship based on financial need.''

-Biden has some pretty tough attacks from the primaries that mirror what McCain's campaign is trying to make the narrative in regards to Obama.

-Plus, it has angered the Hillary supporters who are feeling quite shunned by the campaign right now. (The Obama campaign better hope they can put a quash to their delegates who want to boo Hillary during her speech.)

Anyway, I'll kill the thread by posting some quotes from our eloquent dear leader, and do my part on the "wrong side" of Obama's "War on Cynicism":

I will win. Don't worry about that. . . . I understand why a lot of folks are saying, this should just happen. Why are we having to run all these television commercials? Why do we have to raise all this money? Just read the papers. These are the knuckleheads who have been in charge. Throw 'em out. But American politics aren't that simple.

The reason that people believe there needs to be a constitutional amendment, some people believe, is because, uh, of the concern that, uh, uh, about same-sex marriage. I'm not somebody who's [sic] promotes same-sec [sic] marriage, but I do believe in civil unions. I do believe that we should not, um, that that for a gay partners [sic] to want to visit each other in the hospital, for the state to say, you know what, that's all right, I don't think in any way inhibits my core beliefs about what marriage are [sic].

Everywhere I go, people tell me, 'Oh, I'm getting nervous. The Republicans — they're so mean. What are we going to do?'

I would not have nominated, uhhh, Clarence Thomas. Uh, I don’t think that he’s—uhhh... uhhh... I—I—I—I—I—I don’t think that he was an exper... uh, a strong enough jurist or legal thinker, uh, at the time, uh, for that elevation. Setting aside the fact that I profoundly disagree with his interpretations of a lot of the Constitution.

America is …, uh, is no longer, uh … what it could be, what it once was. And I say to myself, I don’t want that future for my children.

It’s like these guys take pride in being ignorant. [ed: Well at least he's a different kind of politics, above all that negative campaiging and attacking his opponents personally.]

Well, let me — let me be absolutely clear. Israel is a strong friend of Israel's.

I have become a symbol of the possibility of America returning to our best traditions. [ed: by changing them and casting off the old ones! see Michelle below]

The time has changed for come.

"[Barack Obama is] a leader that God has blessed us with at this time." —House Speaker Nancy Pelosi

And the required fascist quotes:
“Barack knows that we are gonna have to make sacrifices, we are gonna have to change our conversation, we are gonna have to change our traditions, our history—we’re gonna have to move into a different place as a nation to provide the kind of future that we all want desperately for our children. And he is the man to do it.” —Michelle Obama [ed: I think this has been tried before]
“[L]oving your country shouldn’t just mean watching fireworks on the Fourth of July. Loving your country must mean accepting your responsibility to do your part to change it.” —Barack Obama
"This primary season may not be over, but when it is we will have to remember who we are as Democrats, that we are the party of Jefferson and Jackson, of Roosevelt and Kennedy, and that we are at our best when we lead with principle, when we lead with conviction, when we summon an entire nation to a common purpose and a higher purpose.

This fall, we intend to march forward as one Democratic Party, united by a common vision for this country, because we all agree that at this defining moment in our history, a moment when we are facing two wars, an economy in turmoil, a planet in peril, a dream that feels like it's slipping away for too many Americans, we can't afford to give John McCain the chance to serve out George Bush's third term.

We need change in America. And that's why we will be united in November." - Barack Obama [ed: But I thought his winning the nomination was the "moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal…"]

And because I like it:
"We have to fix our souls. Our souls are broken in this nation." - Michelle Obama

Note: I don't care about Johm McCain. (So don't come late into the thread and try to fit everything into your bipolar political world and think anyone who despises the Obama "Nation" is automatically in love with Johm McCain. Go back and read the first page.) The only upside to a Johm McCain Presidency is the epic lulz that will occur on the Obama side if Obama loses.

[bowdown]

Well it is going to be Mccain. We all know its the old white people who are the mojority of voters.

but i voted obama on this poll. i cant vote in real life though im 17

[benji]

Well it is going to be Mccain.

but i voted obama on this poll.

Who do you honestly believe will be the next US President?

[diddy]

thought i'm Russian i want Obama to become Armeican president, cuz i want to c an intellegent guy rules out America, not another dump ass like bush!

[benji]

rules out America,

He doesn't "rule America" we haven't had real dictators in almost seventy years.

i want to c an intellegent guy rules out America, not another dump ass like bush!

But, you said you want Obama. So...which is it?

[Gundy]

benji, it's best to ignore Diddy posts