With so many players going to Europe...

[Axel]

Are we going to see teams stretched thin, particularly on the bench? So many good role players are being snatched up, so how will the league deal with this? I think it's safe to say expansion will not be in the cards anywhere in the near future, particularly with the economy in such an uncertain state at best. If good players keep getting picked up (Pargo, Nachbar, Childress, Gordon perhaps, and others I've forgotten) the league is going to look even more stretched thin than it already did. I wonder how much it would take for contraction?

[Mikki]

Eventually, bench players will see it as a way to get a crack in minutes.

[Lamrock]

The highest paid player in the Euroleague is the sixth man for a 37-45 team. I don't think losing mediocre (Childress, Krstic) and bad (Pargo, Boykins) players is reason for panic yet. Only a handful of those teams can afford to take our players, and only our worst have decided to play there at this point.

[benji]

mediocre (Childress

I think you're confused Johm.

[Lamrock]

mediocre (Childress

Johm.

?? I understand that you love Childress because of his afro and his dominance in obscure stats despite not being able to will a rather decent team to a winning record in the worst conference ever, and managing a rather mediocre 12 and 5 in 30 minutes but what is this "Johm" you speak of?

Edit: Oh man am I going to get it now...

[benji]

Whenever McCain (who ran an ad where it spelled his own name as Johm McCain) has had policy disagreements with Obama, Obama's surrogates have said he is confused. (Because he's OLD LOLOLOLOL.)

and his dominance in obscure stats despite not being able to will a rather decent team to a winning record in the worst conference ever, and managing a rather mediocre 12 and 5 in 30 minutes

The team was only that good because of Childress. Certainly not because of Josh Smith and Joe Johnson. The guy shot 65%, had an above average (for sf/sg) offensive rebounding % and was average enough in turnovers that it turned him into one of the best offensive players out there. He scored only 12 points sure, but he only used 10.4 possessions a game. Allowing Joe Johnson to waste a good number of possessions and Josh Smith to waste an even better number.

Don't worry, I won't come back for reparations when they win a solid amount fewer games this year (They were along the lines of a low 20 win team without Childress, and with the minutes reappropriated among the rest, last year) despite getting Maurice Evans and Horford's improvement. (More like because of Flip Murray amirite?)

We can't look at the results of the playoff games and think this was a good team. It was even worse in the playoffs, top of the lottery bad. It's not their fault the Celtics decided to not get it together until the Pistons series. Even the worst teams can win any three of seven games. (And who were the Hawks who played 50+ playoff minutes and shot over 50% from the floor? Childress and Law. And who had the lowest turnover rate on the team? Childress. And who like in the regular season was third on the team in offensive rebounding % behind Horford and Pachulia and not miles behind them? Childress. Although he threw down a ton fewer dunks in the playoffs.)

Pfft, obscure. More like better and actually informative.

[hova-]

Owned.

But I think Childress was not really offering anything else and I still dont think he'd have developed into a above average player. I mean you talk about possesions and stuff. Why does Childress only get the ball 10 times per game to score ? Give him the ball more often and his numbers will drop below Johnson's numbers.

Your arguments are good, but youre always like "not much turnovers" "good shot selection" but it pretty much shows how limited a player is in a way that he has no outside shot or just does not handle the ball in difficult situations etc.

Just give me your opionion : Who would you want to handle the ball late in the game, maybe even on the final possesion .. JJ or JC ? (you will give proofs for your decision anyway so I dont need to ask for them)

[benji]

I don't care about final possession situations. They come down almost entirely to luck and are a sample size of one possession. (The best team ever, the 1996 Chicago Bulls. Record in games within three points during the regular season? 5-3. And one of those on each side were the expansion Toronto Raptors. During the playoffs that year? 1-1. The team wasn't good because it won in "final possession" situations, but because they slaughtered nearly every fucker that got in their way.)

Your arguments are good, but youre always like "not much turnovers" "good shot selection"

Sorry, I like players that win basketball games. And I didn't know it was a negative for players to not do things they can't and to maximize the effect of things they can. (For outside shot. Sure, he only took 10% of his shots as threes, but he made 37%.)

But I think Childress was not really offering anything else

Besides awesome offensive play? And an afro? And dunks? And great defensive length? Is there more you want from a player?

Why does Childress only get the ball 10 times per game to score ?

Because Joe Johnson hasn't met a shot he doesn't like and people think Josh Smith is a star? Not my fault NBA coaches and GMs don't know what they're doing. This is why they are fired from their jobs every three years or so.

Give him the ball more often and his numbers will drop below Johnson's numbers.

Proof or ban?

[Matthew]

Not my fault NBA coaches and GMs don't know what they're doing.

Hahaha! Holy shit. A random on a message board honestly believes in his mind that NBA coaches and GM's don't know what they're doing? QUICK, LETS HIRE BEN BAILEY!

Just wow...

[benji]

I never claimed I knew what I was doing or that I'm infallible. I merely presented one argument and answered another.

The only converse I can see to my statement is that all NBA coaches and all NBA GMs do know what they're doing and don't make mistakes. (Especially since I didn't specify how many GMs or coaches, it could mean one or it could mean thirty. And we're supposed to never assume anything.) These are the people that gave Jalen Rose, Allan Houston, etc. max contracts. These are the people who still don't seem to know how to draft. And these are people who get fired at a rate few would consider usual.

I still don't know why you want to talk about me so much though.

[Matthew]

Oh you're being attacked again are you <3

I'm sure BigKaboom, Cyanide, JaoSming, Laxation and whatever other idiot you have on your friends list will be responding to this as soon as they wake up

The thing is, despite you claiming "me wanting to talk about you so much", I'm not. I'm just responding to you. You are in such a fantasy world of you pretending to know more then anyone else, all I have to do is say one thing to you and you go on your tirade.

It's almost like a prank phone call. It's cute, and you're so predictable. I love it.

But back on topic. I never said coaches or GM's are perfect, of course some will make mistakes. But when someone on a message board says "NBA coaches and GM's don't know what they're doing", its like a 4 year old with a crayon saying Michaelangelo wasn't an artist.

[Andrew]

I doubt we'll see a max exodus, Europe is obviously becoming a more attractive option for players who are still capable of getting a lot of minutes (as opposed to those who can't latch on with a team) but there'll still be players coming into the league and developing who will fill those spots at some point.

[benji]

But when someone on a message board says "NBA coaches and GM's don't know what they're doing", its like a 4 year old with a crayon saying Michaelangelo wasn't an artist.

So people like Billy King and Isiah Thomas are the Michaelangelo's of their craft.

I certainly hope you never criticize a GM or someone who does a job you don't

You are in such a fantasy world of you pretending to know more then anyone else

Heh. Where have I ever claimed to know anything more than anyone? I just pose questions and counter-arguments. It is not my fault I have yet to see the counter-arguments to them.

I'm sure BigKaboom, Cyanide, JaoSming, Laxation and whatever other idiot you have on your friends list

I'm glad you think I have that many friends.

[Laxation]

Hahaha! Holy shit. A random on a message board honestly believes in his mind that NBA coaches and GM's don't know what they're doing? QUICK, LETS HIRE BEN BAILEY!

Just wow...

Some don't.

And the idea of signing/hiring a gm or coach that has previously failed miserably doesn't make much sense either...

I'm sure BigKaboom, Cyanide, JaoSming, Laxation and whatever other idiot you have on your friends list will be responding to this as soon as they wake up

thanks for noticing

[Matthew]

But when someone on a message board says "NBA coaches and GM's don't know what they're doing", its like a 4 year old with a crayon saying Michaelangelo wasn't an artist.

So people like Billy King and Isiah Thomas are the Michaelangelo's of their craft.

Billy King and Isiah are GM's? Interesting.

[benji]

And the idea of signing/hiring a gm or coach that has previously failed miserably doesn't make much sense either...

Or signing players who have previously been worthless...

At least someone understands my point...even if he's someone who has come close to probably absolutely hating me.

[hova-]

Why does Childress only get the ball 10 times per game to score ?

Because Joe Johnson hasn't met a shot he doesn't like and people think Josh Smith is a star? Not my fault NBA coaches and GMs don't know what they're doing. This is why they are fired from their jobs every three years or so.

That is not right. You dont see players during training sessions. You are not around them 7 days a week. Simple exercises often show what you can expect from a player or not. Even if Johnson takes shot after shot after shot and Smith jacks up threes like hell, Childress surely hasnt shown enough of things the coach wants to see. All you proove is that he does not make many mistakes when he gets the ball. But you do not know if he has the skills to bring this on a consistent level in case of getting more possesions. Maybe his ball handling sucks like hell when they are doing any exercises in training. So the coach decides not to give him the ball in many situations. You have to trust the coaches more than your stats.
A german soccer commentator once said:

Statistically every 5th person in the world is chinese, but I do not so any Chinese on the pitch ....

[benji]

But you do not know if he has the skills to bring this on a consistent level in case of getting more possesions.

Do you know he doesn't?

You have to trust the coaches more than your stats.

Why? Where's the evidence they know any better than random people drawn off the street?

You dont see players during training sessions. You are not around them 7 days a week. Simple exercises often show what you can expect from a player or not.

Shaq and Wallace both hit more than three out of four free throws in practice according to anecdotes.

Even if Johnson takes shot after shot after shot and Smith jacks up threes like hell, Childress surely hasnt shown enough of things the coach wants to see.

Maybe the coach overrates the wrong skills and underrates the right ones?

All you proove is that he does not make many mistakes when he gets the ball.

Mmmm. The players I want. Like Michael Jordan.

[bowdown]

ben gordon says he might be headed to europe as well.
now he is a significant player who wants a big salary and europe there is a lot of it

[Lamrock]

Whoa did I miss a shit storm. I am going to get back to the "Childress, great or meh" argument. Yes, Childress shoots a very good percentage (I thought he shot 57%? He's not a good 3pt shooter, so I doubt that it brought his percentage up 8 points though... do you also count free throws?) and is one of the best rebounding SG's in the league.

However, the Hawks point differential is 'only' -0.9 per 100 without Josh. When he is on the court, their differential is -3.0. Perhaps it is because he is generally on the floor at the same that Johnson and Smith are (wasting possessions), but in every category except rebounding and drawing fouls, the Hawks are statistically superior without him on the floor.

With or without him, the Hawks aren't making the playoffs this year. (with several East teams improving, while the Hawks remain subpar) Still, I don't think the NBA will be too threatened with one arguably good player and several mediocre and bad ones leaving. It could be a good thing, if guys like Ben Gordon, Mike James and Antoine Walker depart as well.

[benji]

Of course I used TS% (which counts free throws) in order to shrink the four factors into three.

He's not a good 3pt shooter

Like I said...37% from there. 34% and 49% the years before.

(I thought he shot 57%?

Field goal percentage maybe. But that doesn't tell us what kind of shots he's making.

+/- stuff

I've already noted my reservations with 82 games' +/-, especially how it tells you more about the teammates than the player. Even the adjusted +/- (for who is on the floor for both teams) says that Chris Paul hurts the Hornets when he's on the court.

I can't imagine why Childress, who does most everything awesome, could somehow be making his team worse. I simply cannot believe that there are so many intangibles that people can't even label them with english words and that they control everything on the court.

[Lamrock]

Yeah, I figured teammates were a part of it, since what Childress does do improves the team. When I saw that Childress leads the team in win shares, I decided to concede.

I don't think that Europe taking a bunch of mediocre to bad players, along with one good one is reason to panic just yet.

[Laxation]

But when someone on a message board says "NBA coaches and GM's don't know what they're doing", its like a 4 year old with a crayon saying Michaelangelo wasn't an artist.

So people like Billy King and Isiah Thomas are the Michaelangelo's of their craft.

Billy King and Isiah are GM's? Interesting.

Ah, good point. You're right.

[shadowgrin]

but because they slaughtered nearly every fucker that got in their way.)

For shame hova, you made benji curse.

[benji]

Now they've stolen Shawn Kemp!