KG locks down Defensive player of the year award

[BigKaboom2]

I already explained why predictions are not worthwhile opinions twice now. You've ignored each post on the subject, and I don't really want to post it again.

Calling me an idiot does not make your arguments any stronger; it's fallacious in every way.

Magius didn't say anything at all about Kobe's defensive ability or Chris Paul's. I already pointed this out; you ignored the post completely.

[Matthew]

I don't care if you think predictions are worthless. I care about double standards.

I stand by my opinion that you're an idiot for saying "So he was supposed to ask for your opinion before you even posted in the thread? Like 'I wonder what Matthew thinks about this subject'? Otherwise you're free to criticize whatever you want in your first post in the thread? "

And Magius saying he would place Paul ahead of Kobe in a defensive player of the year thread led me to assumption he is talking about defense. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm not. But regardless, it's not upto you to argue whether I am wrong or right because only Magius knows in this instance. Not you. Not me. Not Ben. Not Andrew.

Unbelievable.

[BigKaboom2]

Why am I an idiot for saying that? If my interpretation of your unwritten rule is incorrect, explain the correct version of it because I simply don't understand.

Do you see Andrew and Sauru's posts above magius's, where they don't mention DPOY at all? Do you think magius was incorrectly identifying Kobe as the winner of the DPOY award?

[Matthew]

I don't care if you think predictions are worthless. I care about double standards.

I stand by my opinion that you're an idiot for saying "So he was supposed to ask for your opinion before you even posted in the thread? Like 'I wonder what Matthew thinks about this subject'? Otherwise you're free to criticize whatever you want in your first post in the thread? "

And Magius saying he would place Paul ahead of Kobe in a defensive player of the year thread led me to assumption he is talking about defense. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm not. But regardless, it's not upto you to argue whether I am wrong or right because only Magius knows in this instance. Not you. Not me. Not Ben. Not Andrew.

Unbelievable.

Learn to fucking read.

[BigKaboom2]

I'm kind of saying the same thing to you, but in less obnoxious terms. You read his post out of context of the ones that came before it - it isn't as vague a post as you're making it out to be.

He didn't say he "would place Paul ahead of Kobe," he said he "would have picked Paul over Kobe." Kobe was not picked as the Defensive Player of the Year, so it is clear that he is talking about the Most Valuable Player award, especially when you take the two posts before his into account.

[Matthew]

How do you know I took it out of context? Only magius knows that.

So stupid.

[BigKaboom2]

I don't think you read my post. I explained it clearly.

[magius]

um, it's not that big a deal. but yeah, my 2nd paragraph was responding to Sauru and Andrew's posts before mine regarding the MVP. But it is true that it is somewhat out of context in respect the thread as a whole, so whatever.

I personally wouldn't consider either kobe or paul elite defenders.... and by elite I mean top 5 in the nba.

[Matthew]

Magius, it's not your fault. Who are your top 5 defenders in the NBA? Mine are Tim Duncan, Marion, Kobe, Battier and Garnett

[magius]

In no particular order - tim duncan, josh smith, kevin garnett, josh howard, shane battier. If Ron Artest and Chris Kaman had played more games they might challenge some of those players.... maybe Gerald Wallace too. Also you could arguably insert shawn marion, rasheed, prince, or marcus camby into there.... bowen, dwight howard maybe. I also think grant hill defensively was very underrated this season. I also really like hayes, noah, and tony allen, although they didn't play enough minutes to qualify.

Personally, I think Bynum is the best defender on the lakers (when healthy of course), and Odom's d is at least on par with kobes. For the Hornets, I think Chandler is the most important defensive player. In both cases I think people are somewhat blinded by instances of very good defense/apparent intensity, but I don't think either kobe or paul are the most important defensive players on either of their teams... let alone the league! Not to say that either player doesn't have the capability to be elite defenders (kobe is a much better defender in the last 5 minutes of a game... top 5? probably still not imo), but good defense should be measured by consistency over potential in my book. Either way, both players are too important offensively to be counted on as defensive stalwarts over the course of a game... their are very few players that are consistently that good on both ends (td, mj, pip, hakeem, kg, etc.)

[BigKaboom2]

Magius, it's not your fault.

What's not his fault? That you read his post out of context and started grilling him about it?

And why do you feel those are the five best defenders in the NBA? Just "feel" and intuition or did you look up any stats that might be helpful?

[Jackal]

When even I get bored by the constant (boring, uncreative) back and fourth, you know something is seriously wrong with the world.

[Matthew]

Magius, it's not your fault.

What's not his fault? That you read his post out of context and started grilling him about it?

I'd hate to live your life.

Magius, the difference to me with Kobe and Odom is Kobe's on the ball defense. Odom is a good defensive rebounder and has good length, but Kobe is a more physical defender (referees allow him to be) and plus he is a better help defender in terms of shot blocks. Odom draws more charges from help though.

I agree with what you said about Chandler, he's a very underrated defender. I can't say the same for Bynum yet though.

[Axel]

Bowen is without a doubt a top 5 defender.

[Jackal]

Bowen is a good defender, but he's also dirty as a motherfucker. Be physical, by all means, but the cheapshots he takes...those are annoying.

Quite a shame, otherwise he's quite the defender.

[benji]

I doubt it. He is not as effective as he used to be.

Odom is a good defensive rebounder and has good length ... Odom draws more charges from help though.

What is the opinion of this chattering class on Dirk Nowitkzi, Udonis Haslem, or Antawn Jamison defensively?
[table][mrow]Player[mcol]Dreb%[mcol]Charges Drawn[mcol]Per 36
[row]Antawn Jamison[col]23.3[col]20[col]0.24
[row]Dirk Nowitzki[col]22.8[col]13[col]0.17
[row]Lamar Odom[col]22.7[col]15[col]0.18
[row]Udonis Haslem[col]22.6[col]28[col]0.56[/table]

[BigKaboom2]

I'd hate to live your life.

This strikes me as an insult.

Bowen is without a doubt a top 5 defender.

Without a doubt? What are you using to determine the top 5 defenders?
I find such conclusions much less interesting than the reasoning, hence this quote:

And why do you feel those are the five best defenders in the NBA? Just "feel" and intuition or did you look up any stats that might be helpful?

[Matthew]

I'd hate to live your life.

This strikes me as an insult.

What is the opinion of this chattering class on Dirk Nowitkzi, Udonis Haslem, or Antawn Jamison defensively?

I was comparing Odom to Kobe. I wonder why BigKaboom didn't question you for not reading my post! Whoops, another insult eh?

[benji]

I know you were, but other people were considering Odom a great defender. Notice I didn't ask you specifically.

This doesn't mean you can't provide your thoughts on the subject.

[Matthew]

But you quoted me specifically. I already have given my thoughts on Odom as a defender.

[benji]

I quoted you because of the areas you mentioned, defensive rebounding, and drawing charges, and listed comparable players, based on defensive rebounding, to Odom.

You could say I am supporting your argument by pointing out that Odom is more similar to Dirk Nowitzki, who few would consider a great defender, than he is to Kobe. You could also compare Odom to the three counterparts listed above, if you wanted to further expand on your defensive ruminations regarding Odom. You gave your thoughts on Odom only in comparison to Kobe after all. For example, is Jamison better than Odom because he bests Odom in those two categories?

But alas, since I did quote you, I guess I am required to respond to what you said.

I don't take defensive rebounding or charge drawing individually to be of much defensive value. Odom drew 15 charges all year, Kobe drew 8. Considering they both faced over 7000 team defensive possessions the difference would be neglible. By comparison, teammate Derek Fisher drew 54 while facing only about 5000 possessions.

[Matthew]

I think defensive rebounding is an underrated defensive attribute. If you don't get that rebound, it's still an offensive possession for the opponent.

I only compared Odom to Kobe because of Magius' statement of "Odom is on par with Kobe". I'd rate Odom 3rd on that list behind Haslem and Dirk (in that order) but ahead of Jamison. Jamison seems to have quicker feet, but he doesn't play as physical as Odom in the post nor does he rotate as well as him. Dirk is a very underrated defender in my opinion. Now I'm not saying he's great, but I think he is more important to Dallas' team defense then Josh Howard who seems to get alot of their credit.

As for Haslem, I am basing him at number one strictly off his previous years. I give all Miami players this season a free pass when I offer my opinions because it was a lost season. Do I give them respect for that? No. But it's the only fair way to judge them. Otherwise someone could probably make a case for Michael Redd being better then Wade because Wade had a shocker of a season.

[magius]

team pts per 100 possessions allowed when players is:
ON COURT vs OFF COURT
Odom 105.4 vs 108.8
Bryant 106.2 vs 106.8
Jamison 109.6 vs 112.9
Nowitzki 106.4 vs 107.5
Haslem 112 vs 110.9
And if we're taking Garnett, dpoy as the ultimate measure:
Garnett 98.1 vs 102.2

efg when player is:
ON COURT vs OFF COURT
Odom 48.2 vs 49.2
Bryant 48.5 vs 48.5
Jamison 51.3 vs 51.4
Nowitzki 47.5 vs 47.4
Haslem 52.0 vs 50.2
Garnett 45.0 vs 46.8

I don't consider odom a "great" defender, only a more important one to the lakers than bryant. I also think odom's defense this season has been better than any of the other players mentioned (jamison, dirk, haslem, bryant, omit kg of course).

odom's ability to guard the post, the perimeter, and to provide help defense is invaluable. kobe, on some nights, MIGHT be able to shut down one player on a number of possessions, but, to me, odom's value in terms of team defense and help defense outweighs that. Especially with how the game is played - it is not possible to shut down any one player alone over the duration of a game, because of pick and rolls, switches, and how fouls are called. So even though I would probably consider kobe a better on the ball defender than odom, I think odom is a better team defender... and I value team defense over individual.

I would also consider defensive rebounding an important part of defense for the same reasons Matthew mentioned. A stop is inconsequential if it leads to another possession, imo.

[Air Zoom Kobe I]

IF ANYONE doesn't believe Kobe Bryant, Jason Kidd, or Tim Duncan are DPOY talents, you're snorting coke with a straw



That being said, better defensive point guard: Allen Iverson or Chris Paul?

[magius]

With a straw is the only way to go. I do it with two, one for each nostril.