End of Suns, What Was And What Could Have Been?

[The X]

I'm sure most of you have read the following story on ESPN website, but I found it interesting & it did hit home with me on a few points, so I just thought I'd share it for those who haven't & open it up for further discussion....

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/st ... ons/080501

For me, the Phoenix Suns helped to rejuvenate some of my love of the NBA game....seeing teams grind it out year after year really wore down on me, but the free spirit of this team & the way they excelled by playing this way made them hard not to really like them....

Unfortunately, as Simmons mentions in the article, the Suns' front office didn't help matters with their handling of the Joe Johnson matter (I didn't mind them letting him go rather than sign & trade), then trading away 1st Rounders for cash instead of taking guys like Deng, Fernandez & so on, all of who could've strengthened the team's bench & laid a platform for the future....I can't imagine what it was like for the true Suns fans who had to endure wasted draft after draft, saying they didn't want to pay luxury tax (why not pick & stash a Euro then), & then that horrible Kurt Thomas trade, where they had to trade him & draft picks just for Sonics to take him....then they go & take Shaq's mammoth contract in the end....

so yeah, I guess this thread is to discuss two different topics:
1) To discuss teams (not just Suns) that you've loved watching for whatever reasons;
2) How you've felt as a fan of a certain team when they have made questionable front office decisions.

[Laxation]

Its too hard to pick one 'worst' move. They all added together to form the shithole that is Phoenix.

Trading Johnson seems bad prime facie, but once you look into it - he was disgruntled, so getting rid of him may have been beneficial.

Trading ALL the picks would probably be one of their worst moves, it really crapped all over their future.

Hiring D'Antonio was a shit move - you can't win titles without defence.

Trading for Shaq was a great move. They were going NOWHERE with their current team - I dont care how many regular season games they won, theyre team as assembled wouldn't get it done in the end.

Trading Kurt Thomas was just a bonehead move. Steve Kerr is not to blame - their owner is. Why the fuck would you buy a basketball team if you do not want to win a title?
He PAID to get Thomas off their books, and in the end he was a key component in their dismantling by the Spurs.

I like Kerr as a GM. He hasn't fucked up in my books yet. But can he trade owners.......

[Sauru]

my vote went with the kurt trade, that was just dumb on so many levels. worst thing is how he came back to bite them on the ass in the end, i bet he feels good at the end of the day now.

i dont think the shaq trade was that bad at all, infact i actually think they were better with him, and like lax said, if they didnt make that trade they would not have done any better


its kinda funny, if the hawks sucked again this year the johnson trade would not have looked so bad, or if the hawks landed with the 4th pick last year

[shadowgrin]

My vote goes to the bargain sale of draft picks.

I think the Shaq trade isn't bad too. The Suns just has a weak team defense that's why they lost. How many times have we seen Shaq isolated against Parker on the perimeter during the last series. Even their best "defender" Raja Bell lets the switch happen leaving Shaq alone. Damn Suns and their retarded defense.

The Joe Johnson trade isn' bad. He didn't want to stay so they traded him, if he stayed he could have pulled off a Vince Carter, at least they got something in Diaw.
The whole Diaw and Amare exist together is b.s. Diaw is flexible enough to play SF, as shown in their lone victory against the Spurs, leaving Amare with his preferred position. I think the problem is Amare, how could a very athletic big man average almost the same amount of rebounds as their aging overweight center during their playoff series, and Shaq was guarding Tim Duncan.

[benji]

Standard Simmons.

HOW CAN YOU GIVE THAT GUY UP???? So what if he's insulted and doesn't want to come back? He'll get over it! You're paying him $14 million a year and he gets to play with Steve Nash! Arrrrrrrrgh.

Because he's nowhere near a max player. He had one great season, that 2004-05 season, otherwise he's been a loser. And even in that one season he wasn't worthy of a max contract. He shot 48% from three that year despite never having broken 37% before, and as he should, has not cracked 38% since.

Switch Diaw for Johnson, give them Bell and Thomas, make Amare healthy and you're looking at the 2006 champs.

But that's the thing. If they had Johnson's max contract on the books, instead of Diaw's rookie contract, they could/would not have signed Bell, Thomas and Jones.

It has to be draft picks. Look at the Pistons, same five man core, but replaced the bench through the draft. The Suns only had one real pick in the second round during this time as well.

Also this, without the rest of the sentence:

Giving Diaw a $45 million, five-year extension

I don't think trading away Kurt Thomas was a bad move, the bad move was trading for him in the first place. He's almost the ultimate pick-n-roll player, but they were paying him $7-8 million to not crack 1500 minutes in either season with the team, and to log 5 total playoff minutes in 05-06. Shifting Richardson to clear room for Bell to get better and cheaper was a smart move, but not for Kurt Thomas.

[Skills]

My vote went to the signings and re-signings.
They used a LOT of money up on Diaw and Banks.
If Diaw was just going to perform well with Amare out, they should've signed him to just a 1-year contract.
Marcus Banks is just a flop.
Q-Rich on the other hand, managed to get some stuff done in Phoenix.
But trading him with Nate Robinson was a really bad move.

[Lamrock]

Giving away Kurt. They would have probably won it all had they not done that.

[Andrew]

I don't think there's necessarily one decision that ruined it all for the Suns, but rather a combination and culmination of everything that's been mentioned so far. I suppose the draft picks stand out, trading away the seventh pick in particular but the Suns could have tried Plan B, C, D etc to strengthen their roster, however they couldn't, or wouldn't. That left them with a short rotation that was talented but fell victim to tired legs or simply once again lacked a Plan B, C, D etc if someone was in foul trouble or off their game because they didn't have the depth.

Looking back at the Suns' performance from 2005 to the present, it reminds me of a point that came up in one of the Miami Heat threads a couple of months back, whether it was better to contend year after year without ever winning the championship or have only a couple of good years and produce at least one title. I still think the latter is preferable, a team like the Heat will have an opportunity to rebuild and try to put together a contender again but even if they didn't, they had the chance to roll the dice and win a championship and they succeeded.

[The X]

I think giving away the 1st Round picks was worst decision....you can't really say it was helping them contend by not keeping those picks....it's not like they were dealt for players that would help, they were usually dealt for cash or to unload a contract....I don't see how that helps them compete for a championship....if the deals were helping them to compete, then it might make some sense, but in this case, it just seemed like the owner was trying to not lose money....he's within his rights to do that, sucks for their fans though....

2nd worst decision IMHO was the Kurt Thomas saga....

I didn't have a problem with the Joe Johnson deal, I thought they did alright & probably wasn't a chemistry trade too....

[Matthew]

I'm not a fan of Phoenix (or any other team really), but here's my list:

1. Hiring Steve Kerr. He hasn't made one good move (apart from signing Grant Hill). The Shaq trade was a disaster. It's like putting a v12 in a Harley Davidson, it just doesn't fit. And when you consider who was available (Garnet, Gasol) it just makes that deal look worse and worse. Marion may have been inconsistent in the half court, but he posed so many matchup problems in transition for other power forwards. Plus his contributions to team defense was unbelievable, and he is in the top 5 of on the ball defense imo. Like the Joe Johnson deal, it was trading away a major part of their success for a role player.

2. Letting Joe Johnson go. I know at the time you could make a case he wasn't worth 14 million a season, but I'm convinced had they kept him they would have won at least one championship.

3. The giving away of draft picks. Had they gotten Iggy, then they could of gotten rid of Marion and kept a similar player in terms of defense (but no where near the rebounding) and then you could jusifty making a move for Shaq.

Edit: I can't believe I missed this...

Trading for Shaq was a great move. They were going NOWHERE with their current team - I dont care how many regular season games they won, theyre team as assembled wouldn't get it done in the end.

How far did they go with Shaq again?

[GoHornets]

Available Garnett, Gasol?
When Shaq was traded to Phoenix, Kevin was very happy with his team, Boston, and Pau had been traded to another top team like Los Angeles.

[Matthew]

Available Garnett, Gasol?
When Shaq was traded to Phoenix, Kevin was very happy with his team, Boston, and Pau had been traded to another top team like Los Angeles.

Oh my god

[Mayerhendrix]

I'd say it was the hiring of Steve Kerr, who dismantled everything that the Colangelos put together. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. That's true. But don't let it slip away in the process, either. And that's what happened here.

[Alejandrov011]

If The Suns had in mind O'Neal by the preseason... I wanted Garnett in Phx!


Becuase the pakage was going to be Marion + Banks and another one... But The salary cap will be higher than Shaq's (Garnett Trade kicker... $22M a year)


I guess the suns failed in this... Not trustin in rookies...


I wanted to see Parker being guarded by Dj Strawberry... He's a great defender... remember in high school he guarded Lebron and did a nice job...



Shaq Brought defense to Phx... but as happened with Kidd in Dallas... you can't make a team in half a season... See next year for both teams...

[Andrew]

It's not as though he dismantled a perennial champion though. I'm not saying Kerr's tenure has been a success but the Suns were considered team whose ability to go all the way was questioned for a couple of years before Kerr took over, so it's not as though the previous Suns teams were achieving their ultimate goal. Two games away from the NBA Finals is more than respectable but it's still less than they wanted it to be.

That's not to say Kerr isn't responsible for the current state of the team or that he's done a brilliant job but "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is giving a bit too much credit to Suns teams that were contenders but lack the titles to back up the notion that what Bryan Colangelo put together was too good or too successful to be tinkered with. I'd say Kerr's hiring/moves are the latest in a series of mistakes and missteps rather than being the one single thing that's taken the Suns off course.

[Laxation]

Trading for Shaq was a great move. They were going NOWHERE with their current team - I dont care how many regular season games they won, theyre team as assembled wouldn't get it done in the end.

How far did they go with Shaq again?

Absolutely nowhere... But trading for Shaq in the hopes that it would work is a much better move than leaving the team as it was currently constructed.

I'd say it was the hiring of Steve Kerr, who dismantled everything that the Colangelos put together. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

It was broke.

[Mayerhendrix]

Not broke to the extent that Steve Kerr "repaired" it.

[benji]

They had to trade Marion who wanted out, he took a gamble, after the Gasol trade, which didn't work out.

[Mayerhendrix]

Marion was undervalued in Phoenix, the city should've treated him better rather than overlooking him in the Nash + Stoudemire tandem. The fact is that the Matrix may have been #3, but it was by no fault of his. He was a valuable #3 at that, and the Suns' overlooking of Marion as a legitimate member of the core to the extent that Nash/Stoudemire enjoyed is what led to the trade in the first place.

[benji]

Yes, that's all nice and all, but what does that have to do with Steve Kerr "dismantling everything that the Colangelos put together"?

[Mayerhendrix]

You're backing up Steve Kerr by pushing just one thing that he only probably had a partial role in screwing up than a key role, such as the Kurt Thomas trade, the selling off of the draft pick, and other such poor moves. The trade forced the Suns to change up their entire style of play, and was poor compared to the other moves Kerr could've made at the time. Hell, I'd rather have had AK47 instead of Diesel.

[benji]

Yes, well I'd rather have Marion over both of them and most of the league, for any team. What we want is irrelevant to everything though.

I was contending your claim that "Kerr dismantled everything the Colangelos put togtther" considering Colangelo himself had begun to dismantle things by trading Johnson and Richardson, along with a good number of draft picks.

[SpaceFlare]

My vote goes to them giving away those draft picks.

Had they kept their no. 8 pick (correct me if I'm wrong on this) back in 2004, they could've selected Iguodala or Deng.

Iggy would be playing in an ideal system. His athleticism would be well served in a running game where Nash could throw lobs up to him. While the Suns could've made good use of his defense. In fact, with Nash, Marion and Amare scoring most of the points, Iggy could expend most of his energy on defense which he has the skill set to be excellent at.

Rondo would've been perfect for the Suns too. He'd learn a lot from Nash and at the same time, provide a good back-up point guard who can run the show with Nash resting on the bench. He's also a better defensive guard than Nash is, which isn't much but at least they'd be getting a back-up who could be a starter on another team.

[The X]

Definitely the loss of depth by giving away those draft picks hurt....imagine them having Iggy, Rondo, Rodriguez & Rudy Fernandez coming over this season....that's who they could've picked with those spots....adds that bit more depth, makes guys like Barbosa more expendable....just more flexibility overall....

[Andrew]

That would have given them a bit of a logjam at guard though. Depth in the frontcourt outside of Diaw's versatility wouldn't go astray.