Decisions

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Postby Laxation on Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:36 pm

Riot wrote:-Wolves firing Flip

Flip cant coach in the playoffs. Want him back?

Axel wrote:Shaquille O'Neal for Shawn Marion + Marcus Banks is looking dumber by the day.

They're getting crushed while he's healthy... I can only imagine how bad the Suns will be in the 50% of the time that he's unhealthy.

They werent winning the champs with their current team, at least they tried something to shake it up and give them an advantage.

Andrew wrote:I guess you could compare it to the Bulls drafting Stacey King in 1989, a selection that still looks weak even in a Draft that only produced a handful of players who were stars at some point, which ultimately didn't make or break the franchise but is still a difficult decision to defend given that a much better player could have been picked instead.

You could compare it to any bad draft pick from any year... The difference is the quality of the players drafted after him.

The other defence is that had we picked Bosh, we wouldn't have traded for Sheed and wouldnt have won the champs that year.
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Postby TheBigEasy on Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:48 pm

Andrew wrote:
joejam999 wrote:Bryant for Divac was pretty bad.


That was an arrangement between the Hornets and Lakers though, since the Lakers didn't want to risk Kobe getting drafted before their pick in the 20s (which I believe turned out to be Derek Fisher). Obviously, given the player Kobe has become declining the arrangement and keeping him themselves would have been a far better decision. I guess it depends whether the Hornets would have picked him - and held onto him - if that arrangement wasn't in place. If not, the decision could have been much worse in retrospect.


Besides ... Kobe never wanted to play for any other team than the Lakers. If the Hornets would have tried to hold onto him, he would have refused to play for us ...

Thus getting Vlade Divac for him wasn't such a bad move. I wonder why people keep bringing this up tho? Its widely known that Bryant only wanted to play for the Lakers, yet the Hornets get beaten for that move over and over again, as if we had a chance in keeping him ...
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Postby Andrew on Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:13 am

Laxation wrote:You could compare it to any bad draft pick from any year... The difference is the quality of the players drafted after him.


True, but the reason I used the comparison with the Bulls is that they were another team who blew a lottery pick they didn't necessarily need to be a Playoff team or a contender and would go on to win a championship despite that pick. In other words, neither team paid dearly for their mistake as is the case with other blown opportunities in the Draft.

TheBigEasy wrote:Thus getting Vlade Divac for him wasn't such a bad move. I wonder why people keep bringing this up tho? Its widely known that Bryant only wanted to play for the Lakers, yet the Hornets get beaten for that move over and over again, as if we had a chance in keeping him ...


Well, in all fairness the Lakers ultimately did get the best of that deal so most people are bound to look back on that and call it a mistake on the Hornets' part, but that does ignore the rest of the story. Had the Hornets picked someone else and not agreed to the Lakers' proposal, at worst they'd suffer the same criticism as the 12 teams before them who passed on taking Kobe. Since they're the team that literally "gave up" Kobe they're often perceived to have made the worse decision compared to the teams that passed on him (but theoretically wouldn't have given him up if they had, which wouldn't necessarily be true).

It's kind of like the Jazz trading the pick that would ultimately turn out to be Magic Johnson a couple of years later. The saving grace is that had the Jazz not struggled and the pick not been number one, the Lakers may never have truly benefitted greatly from making that deal. Compare that to the selections of Olowokandi, Kwame and Darko, which were criticised and questioned at the time almost as much as they are in hindsight.
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Postby benji on Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:51 am

I don't know if I would call draft choices "bad decisions" as they really are gambles save a handful of guys.

Which is why I stand behind John Weisbrod despite his selections of Dwight Howard and Jameer Nelson.
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Postby Riot on Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:34 pm

Laxation wrote:
Riot wrote:-Wolves firing Flip

Flip cant coach in the playoffs. Want him back?


Wittman literally CAN'T coach in the playoffs because he isn't capable of getting a team there.
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Postby Laxation on Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:06 am

Could any coach get that team into the playoffs?
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Postby Sauru on Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:19 am

benji wrote:I don't know if I would call draft choices "bad decisions" as they really are gambles save a handful of guys.




i gotta say i agree with this point. you could look back at any draft and pick out bad choices but in most cases most of the other gms would have made the same choice the "bone head" gm did
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Postby Andrew on Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:23 am

benji wrote:I don't know if I would call draft choices "bad decisions" as they really are gambles save a handful of guys.


The same could be said of trades and free agent signings though. Had Grant Hill's ankles held up back in 2000, the Magic's fortunes might have been quite different. At the very least it would have seemed a much better investment. I suppose Orlando entered that situation with the knowledge that there were questions about Hill's injured ankle but then anyone selecting a raw player whose biggest positive is a lot of potential should be aware of the risk involved there too.
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Postby Sauru on Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:50 am

i dont think the hill situation is the right arguement here. even if he was fully able to perform i dont see the magic winning it all, or even getting to the finals. they probably would have been good enough to make for a good playoff matchup and stayed that way long enough to never have the players they got now. then again i could be wrong, i just dont have any faith in mcgrady
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Postby Skills on Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:18 am

Here's a few more:
-Raps passing on Andre Iguodala
-Nuggets drafting Nikoloz Tskitishvili
-Bulls drafting Marcus Fizer
-Mavs drafting "Tractor" Traylor
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Postby Lamrock on Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:45 pm

Skillmatic wrote:-Mavs drafting "Tractor" Traylor

That is the best move they have ever made.
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Postby Skills on Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:59 pm

I meant to say, Bucks trading for "Tractor"
Imagine, Nowitzki as a Buck..
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Postby benji on Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:14 pm

Trading for, or signing an existing NBA player is making a decision on a known commodity. Drafting a player is completely different, they have no prior NBA performance to judge on.

Signing Grant Hill can't be a gamble in context of him being the best small forward in the league at the time. Orlando could not have known his career would be nearly derailed by a recurring medical problem and that he would nearly die. (Remember, it's not like he had any history of injury problems.) There was basically no gamble when they made the move, Hill had a badly sprained ankle he was recovering from during the offseason, and he was the dominant player at his position.

When you sign Kwame Brown to $8 million a year in 2005, it is a completely different situation than drafting him in 2001. Kwame had played in zero NBA games in 2001, by 2005 he had four years of data. Kurt Thomas practically averaged 30 and 15 his senior season in college. When the Knicks resigned him in 2004, and when the Suns traded for him a year later, they had ten years worth of data on how he performs in the NBA. On the other end of the spectrum, Michael Redd's college career was pretty unremarkable.

Of course there is a "gamble" in any transaction or change. The point is, draft choices are almost entirely crap shoots as you have no idea truly how the player will perform in the NBA. When you are trading for that same player five years later, you do.

When you evaluate a GM's decision, of course we use some hindsight. In a draft choice, we know 100% more than the GM knew at the time, we know how the player performed in the NBA. With a trade or free agent signing, we can evaluate the context in which the transaction was made with an understanding of the knowledge that was available to the GM about the player.

Just evaluating trades based on hindsight is boring and ignores the nuances of context. Take the Dirk Nowitzki-Robert Traylor deal cited in this thread.
Pitino assured Nowitzki that he would draft him with the Celtics' first-round draft pick on position 10. However, his plan was foiled by Nelson, whose Mavericks had the sixth pick. Nelson worked out draft day deals with the Milwaukee Bucks and the Phoenix Suns: the Mavericks wanted Nowitzki and Suns reserve point guard Steve Nash; the Bucks desired muscular forward Robert Traylor, who was projected to be drafted before Nowitzki; and the Suns had set their sights on forward Pat Garrity, who was projected as a low first round pick. So, the Mavericks drafted Traylor with their sixth pick, and the Bucks selected Nowitzki with their ninth and Garrity with their 19th pick. Then, the Mavericks traded Traylor to the Bucks for Nowitzki and Garrity, and they in return traded latter to Phoenix for Nash.

Of course, years later we can state the obvious and say the Bucks made a bad decision by wanting Traylor. But was the trade itself really a bad decision? The Bucks wanted a player, he might not have been around, so they dealt to get the guy they wanted. Was Steve Nash for Martin Muursepp, Pat Garrity, a guy named Bubba and a first rounder also a bad decision? Especially when you factor in they made the trade partly because Donnie Nelson was friends with Nash?

We need less hindsight and more context. As evidenced by the context of the Kobe draft pick completely changing ones judgement on what on face looks like a disastrous decision.
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Postby Oskar on Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:27 pm

Philadelphia trading away A.I and Chris Webber, you see where they are now, and A.I always took them to playoffs, and did it nicely. Of course, he had his attitude problems or w/e it was, but still, this isn't a nice move imo.
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Postby eisfeld on Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:07 am

Oskar wrote:Philadelphia trading away A.I and Chris Webber, you see where they are now, and A.I always took them to playoffs, and did it nicely. Of course, he had his attitude problems or w/e it was, but still, this isn't a nice move imo.


With A.I. and Webber they would never go deep into the playoffs again. They needed to rebuild and they've done it early enough - look at Indiana, Sacramento and the Knicks who urgently need a do-over but are stuck because they made no significant moves. There are not many miracles like acquiring Gasol for some pieces of junk and a half eaten sandwich. The purpose of an NBA franchise is winning the championship, not making the playoffs. And without significant changes and rebuilding processes only a few teams are able to win it all.

ot:
The Gasol trade is one of the most stupid trades I've ever seen. Memphis could at least have asked for Farmar but they got nothing of value in return (despite of critterton maybe). They saved a lot of money, but they surely could have gotten a better deal than that (i.e. with Chicago).
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Postby Drex on Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:43 am

Agree with eisfield. Just look at the Sixers now, 7th in the East, with a young team that's showing a lot of potential, only one year after the AI trade. They have cap space for next summer, so I wouldn't call it a bad decision.
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Postby Oskar on Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:08 am

Well, you might be right with it. They got Iguodala who is a really good defensive player, and his offense is good also, just 3 years pro. Dalembert, a nice strong center, with positive future ( I hope. ) and Andre Miller as the PG right now, but they should get a new young PG in summer, maybe the rookie from the draft, Derrick Rose ? Sorry, that I moved OT, and if I was wrong about stuff ;D
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Postby Cartar on Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:21 am

Well they have a good young PG, Louis Williams. Still I would prefer going to PO and getting experience of it, so in future they know what to excpect, rather than now lottery pick.
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Postby Sauru on Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:30 am

aside from benji i dont know if any of you are considering the situation prior to the trade at all. trading ai was a bad move? only bad part about the trade was they didnt do it sooner. that entire situation was bad for everyone involved
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Postby Drex on Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:12 am

but they should get a new young PG in summer

Biggest need is a PF.
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Postby Andrew on Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:32 am

benji wrote:Trading for, or signing an existing NBA player is making a decision on a known commodity. Drafting a player is completely different, they have no prior NBA performance to judge on.


Indeed, but what about selections that leave people scratching their heads at the time they're made, such as Olowokandi going first in 1998 ahead of a class of players that the Clippers could have/should have taken in the view of analysts and armchair analysts alike, both at the time it happened and looking back now with the benefit of hindsight? Such decisions do admittedly look worse once we've seen how those other players perform in the NBA but even based on the available data at the time the selection was, at the very least, questionable.

benji wrote:Signing Grant Hill can't be a gamble in context of him being the best small forward in the league at the time. Orlando could not have known his career would be nearly derailed by a recurring medical problem and that he would nearly die. (Remember, it's not like he had any history of injury problems.) There was basically no gamble when they made the move, Hill had a badly sprained ankle he was recovering from during the offseason, and he was the dominant player at his position.


My memory is probably failing me here, but I thought Hill had actually broken his ankle after the initial injury and had screws inserted back in 2000. Perhaps I'm mistaking it for one of his subsequent injuries and surgeries.
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Postby benji on Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:07 am

Andrew wrote:Indeed, but what about selections that leave people scratching their heads at the time they're made, such as Olowokandi going first in 1998 ahead of a class of players that the Clippers could have/should have taken in the view of analysts and armchair analysts alike, both at the time it happened and looking back now with the benefit of hindsight?

I seem to remember a surge of hype for Olowokandi right before the draft (much like Kwame) that made him the near unanimous number one pick, for the "experts," over Bibby simply because he was a center. It is hard to find decade old things on the internet, but I managed to find a few post-draft evaluations:
Sports Illustrated wrote:Los Angeles Clippers (Grade: B+)
The Skinny: The Clips went with NBA convention and selected the big, raw Olowokandi, who has much greater upside than Mike Bibby.

The Sporting News wrote:Clippers--Potentially great centers such as Michael Olowokandi come only once a decade, so he was the logical choice over Mike Bibby. Brian Skinner doesn't figure to play much. Grade: A.

Boston Globe wrote:The Clippers couldn't lose either way - we think. They went big, with raw but promising Michael Olowokandi, a 7-foot-1-inch athlete who may or may not be one of the better centers in the league by the millennium. In so doing, they dissed David Falk, who had determined that his guy, Bibby, was going to the Clippers and had had an 11th-hour repast with Los Angeles owner Donald Sterling to make a final pitch.

New York Times wrote:His skill was hard to gauge, given that he had played only 77 games in his life. But Michael Olowokandi's size alone -- 7 feet 1 inch, 265 pounds -- made it impossible for the team with the No. 1 pick, the Los Angeles Clippers, to stubbornly choose a point guard.

The Clippers finally decided that Olowokandi's potential held more promise than anything Arizona's guard Mike Bibby could offer.
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Postby Sauru on Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:47 am

yeah if i recall everyone said they had to pick him, mostly for the same reasons everyone said oden had to be first choice this year
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Postby CMJ3 on Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:51 am

Signing Kenyon Martin didnt really do anything for us at least for what we payed/paying him. Fair enough hes doing alright now after two knee surgeries but before that he was ment to be Melo's sidekick, how wrong they were.
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Postby Fitzy on Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:51 pm

im pretty sure he was traded, and it wasnt too bad considering what the nuggets traded for him, just draft picks
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