Video cards nvidia FX VS Radeon ATI

[A.I.Rulez]

Will the Radeon 9200 play my games snoothly with high detalis at 1024X768 ?

Can it run DX9.0 games ?

Hi, i think from what im learning so far is that the 9200 will play direct x 9 games, but it cant handle directx 9 new effects. So you'll still be able to play them, but just not with all the whizz bang effects that true directx 9 cards can do.

Oh, thanks.
I still think Radeon 9600Pro is the best choice for me , though ....
But it's expensive !

[Jase23]

Oh, thanks.
I still think Radeon 9600Pro is the best choice for me , though ....
But it's expensive !

Cool, im gonna go to my store today and see how I go, i'll let you all know what I find and what deal I can make... hehe

[bishibashiboy]

Hi, i think from what im learning so far is that the 9200 will play direct x 9 games, but it cant handle directx 9 new effects. So you'll still be able to play them, but just not with all the whizz bang effects that true directx 9 cards can do.

Yep you hit the nail on the head with that one!

I still think Radeon 9600Pro is the best choice for me , though ....
But it's expensive !

I thought you were gonna go with the 9800?
Oh well..yeah graphics cards are expensive. That's why I think the 9600pro is the best balance between price and performance.

Now that I look at it Bishobs breakdown is perfect...I got pretty confused there for a minute I think So many cards.

Tell me about it man.
It's really ridiculous. Throw in the fact that Ati still has the "9800SE" and the "9200SE" and it gets worse. Suppozedly the 9800SE is slower than the 9600pro. Go figure.

Hey Cocobee, I don't know if you read our last posts, but you made a mistake replacing your Geforce4 Ti4600 with a GeforceFX 5200. The 5200 is a budget card that replaced the Geforce4mx series. The Geforce4 Ti4200, 4400 and 4600 ALL absolutely destroy the GeforceFX 5200 AND the 5600. No offence, but I think you're being fooled by Nvidia's Dx9 claim on their box. If you try to play ANY game that uses real direct9 extensions on that card it'll run very poorly. If I were you I would stick to your Geforce4 Ti4600, as it's a superior card. It doesn't support dx9 features, but then again, neither does your FX5200 if you consider the fact that it will be unplayable if you turn those features on within the new games. Your Ti4600 should also be much faster than your FX5200 in Madden at 1600x1200. I think you should download Fraps if you're unsure.

[plunkett05]

I know they signed a sponsorship with nvidia but that's actually misleading. The FX series, while having a slightly higher memory clock, is far worse suited to handle Direct X 9 optimized games than any Radeon 92/6/800. The FX series is surprisingly FAR weaker than new DX9 optimized radeons.

[Cameron]

Hey Cocobee, I don't know if you read our last posts, but you made a mistake replacing your Geforce4 Ti4600 with a GeforceFX 5200. The 5200 is a budget card that replaced the Geforce4mx series. The Geforce4 Ti4200, 4400 and 4600 ALL absolutely destroy the GeforceFX 5200 AND the 5600. No offence, but I think you're being fooled by Nvidia's Dx9 claim on their box. If you try to play ANY game that uses real direct9 extensions on that card it'll run very poorly. If I were you I would stick to your Geforce4 Ti4600, as it's a superior card. It doesn't support dx9 features, but then again, neither does your FX5200 if you consider the fact that it will be unplayable if you turn those features on within the new games. Your Ti4600 should also be much faster than your FX5200 in Madden at 1600x1200. I think you should download Fraps if you're unsure

Holy hell Cocobee, stick with the Ti4600! Even to buy one of those now is like at least twice the price of the FX5200. I'd kill for a Ti4600!!!!

[cocobee]

Hey Cocobee, I don't know if you read our last posts, but you made a mistake replacing your Geforce4 Ti4600 with a GeforceFX 5200. The 5200 is a budget card that replaced the Geforce4mx series. The Geforce4 Ti4200, 4400 and 4600 ALL absolutely destroy the GeforceFX 5200 AND the 5600. No offence, but I think you're being fooled by Nvidia's Dx9 claim on their box. If you try to play ANY game that uses real direct9 extensions on that card it'll run very poorly. If I were you I would stick to your Geforce4 Ti4600, as it's a superior card. It doesn't support dx9 features, but then again, neither does your FX5200 if you consider the fact that it will be unplayable if you turn those features on within the new games. Your Ti4600 should also be much faster than your FX5200 in Madden at 1600x1200. I think you should download Fraps if you're unsure

Holy hell Cocobee, stick with the Ti4600! Even to buy one of those now is like at least twice the price of the FX5200. I'd kill for a Ti4600!!!!

Thanks fellas, but as long as I can play Live 2004 maxed out--then i'm happy. I remember reading that the PC specs are like madden so dx9 might be utilized?

But, lemme get this straight. My geforce ti 4600 will run any game better than my geforce fx 5200? When games (ie Madden 2004) comes out with dx9 specific features like dirty uniforms that i get with the fx card and not on the "superior" ti 4600 card. I just didn't want to be left out again with Live 2004 because there might be some feature that will require dx9 and I wanna make sure I have it. The 97.00 wasn't much and the games I've played aren't any different except for the fact that madden looks a lot better.

[bishibashiboy]

Thanks fellas, but as long as I can play Live 2004 maxed out--then i'm happy. I remember reading that the PC specs are like madden so dx9 might be utilized?

Dx9 will probably not be utilized. As with all new games it will 'require' dx9 in order to run, but it won't actually use any of the graphical enhancements. Live 2004 is almost a straight port from the consoles, and even the graphics of the xbox don't rival that of the pc anymore.
As far as playing Live 2004 maxed, it depends on what you define as playable. If all your'e looking for is 30fps, then I think your card can handle that. If you're looking for 60fps (which imho is what most ppl should be) then you'll have a much better chance with the Ti4600.

But, lemme get this straight. My geforce ti 4600 will run any game better than my geforce fx 5200? When games (ie Madden 2004) comes out with dx9 specific features like dirty uniforms that i get with the fx card and not on the "superior" ti 4600 card. I just didn't want to be left out again with Live 2004 because there might be some feature that will require dx9 and I wanna make sure I have it. The 97.00 wasn't much and the games I've played aren't any different except for the fact that madden looks a lot better.

Interesting. Well I'm not sure if it really looks better with the FX than the Ti4600. Are you using the same nvidia drivers before and after?
As far as I know, the image quality should be the same since I don't think Madden uses any Dx9 specific features either. I don't know why you would see dirty uniforms with the FX and not with the Ti4600, since it's not something that sounds inherent to Dx9 only. Perhaps a driver bug for the Ti series?
I'm sorry if I sound blunt, but I think you're making a big mistake. But regardless, if you're happy with your card then all is good

[cocobee]

I don't know why you would see dirty uniforms with the FX and not with the Ti4600, since it's not something that sounds inherent to Dx9 only

Not sure what exactly, but I see dirty unis, better field degration, better helmets and skin tones too with the fx card. Granted the ti4600 ran just as pretty without those things.

Well, I'll hold on to my ti4600 just in case. If the fx doesn't handle Live 2004 the way I want it too, I'll install my ti 4600 back and give the fx to my boy and vice versa.

Thanks for heads up though man, i appreciate another point of view.

[Jase23]

Hey dudes,

Well today im gonna get my machine (i hope). Went yesterday but was there like 2 hours, place was flat out busy and i couldnt get service.

Ive picked out a P4 3ghz HT machine (800 FSB), 17" lcd, 80 gig drive, cdrw/dvd rom, 512 mb RAM (trying to get 1gig out of them). Only getting the radeon 9200 128mb which comes with it, coz the other cards they were gonna rip me off bigtime!! nearly 500 bucks AUD for a 5600fx!!!!!!!!!

Anyway going in at lunch at today to finalise a deal i hope....

[bishibashiboy]

Nice system. I see one potential problem though: your lcd display. If you play games at high framerates, you may see a "ghosting" effect. Normally it occurs if a game is being displayed at a higher framerate than the refresh rate of your lcd.

I still think you should have went with a better graphics card. But seeing how much even a GeforceFX is in Australia, maybe it's better you held back

Hope you like your new system. Keep us updated!

[Omeo]

The entire Gforce FX Line is a POS. Everyone knows this.

[Jase23]

Update!

Got back from the store, did some haggling and made a deal.

P4 3Ghz, 800FSB Hyper-threading CPU
1 GB RAM (got extra 512 for free)
17" TFT monitor
80 GB HD
cdrw/dvd rom combo drive
128 Radeon 9200 (crap I know, but this comes with the system and their prices for better cards were very expensive, will get another card elsewhere)
Nice subwoofer and speakers, keyboard & scroll mouse
Also got a Playstation controller to USB adaptor for free, so I can freestyle.

Whats the diff between LCD and TFT monitors???????

[ReyJ]

I just had a look at Cougars Computers and DAMN, they are expensive.

I went to this computer fair at Parramatta, Sydney, and had a look at the AMD 64 processor and was actually tempted to buy it. Don't know what to do, but I might wait until Live 2004 comes out and see how my 2 current rigs plays it.

What is the difference between TFT and LCD panels?

LCD is liquid crystal display, an old technology that is slow and relatively bulky. Think back to those hand-held electronic games that existed before things like GameBoy came around, or digital watches...same technology. The fabrication of LCDs (the LC being encased in glass) limit the resolution you can achieve.

TFTs are thin film transistors. Electronically quicker and can be fabricated much smaller. The fabrication is a solid state device, and is a similar technology to what makes CPUs and such (multi layered film deposition), so you can imagine the speed and potential scaling that can come with TFT devices.

[Forky]

As far as I know ... nothing. But correct me on this techheads (Bashi/Endof/Chunk)!

To my knowledge, TFT and LCD are different abbreviations for the same thing. But Bashi flagged a legitimate concern with the "ghosting". Again, Bashi is talking from a techhead perfectionist point of view, but is correct.

I don't think it will cause any really consternation with NBA Live or Madden or any sports game really, but if you intend on playing Battlefield, Halflife 2 or Formula One (any really fast 3D game, and by fast I mean the entire game environment is moving around all the time with the perspective changing all the time as well) then you will notice it.

(sports games 3D specs are childsplay in comparison to some of the aforementioned games)

Like Bashi said, it occurs when a very fast machine (like yours) updates the information that should be displayed on the screen faster than what the screen can update. The effect is a 'residual image' that stays there for less than a 0.1 of a second. Not a problem usually, but when moving images are concerned (and there's residual image after residual image) you will notice it. Especially at the high resolutions where millions of pixels have to updated over 80 times a second.

I doubt you will really notice it though, or care. It doesn't affect too much at all.

Anyone want to add or subtract from this?

[Forky]

I stand corrected.

The ghosting stuff is still applicable though.

[bishibashiboy]

err..i agree with Forky. I dunno too much about LCD's since i don't have one myself, and I never read up on them, but when i hear TFT or LCD i tend to think of the terms interchangeably and I think they are the same as well.

Forky is also right that you would definitely see ghosting if you play first person shooters such as Quake, Unreal, BF1942 etc. Those games all need high framerates (above 60) in order to be enjoyable, and normally lcd's are pretty much limited to a refresh of 60hz. You will see ghosting for sure in these games. Not sure about Live 2004, or sports games but I would imagine if you chuck the ball downcourt and everybody's running after it causing the screen to pan really fast, you'll see it.

Oh and make sure you plug the LCD into the DVI input of the Radeon (i hope they're giving you one WITH the dvi input, cuz I know the "built by ATI" Radeon 9200 cards don't have one). If you use the analog input, you'll see artifacts on your LCD when you play movies. Happens with DVD's on my dad's comp, and also a few DOS programs he uses.

Overall I like the look of lcd's. It's clearer and much brighter. But I don't think they're ready for gaming yet.

[Jase23]

dang.... so i got a dud monitor. I play BF1942 alot when i have friends over for LANs. Is it so bad i cant see anything???! like how bad is it?

how do i find out what refresh rate i can have?... higher the better i guess. At the store i thought it said 75.....

[Jase23]

Oh and make sure you plug the LCD into the DVI input of the Radeon (i hope they're giving you one WITH the dvi input, cuz I know the "built by ATI" Radeon 9200 cards don't have one). If you use the analog input, you'll see artifacts on your LCD when you play movies

artifacts? please explain

[bishibashiboy]

You didn't get a 'dud' in that sense. Things are still very playable and I'm sure it's not THAT bad. It's just noticeably worse than a CRT display when ghosting occurs. I think it's similar to laptops and when you move the mouse it leaves a sort of trail. Not as pronounced as that, but similar.

The refresh rate thing I'm not too sure about. A lot of lcd's are capable of going as high as 75hz no problem from what I hear. But 60hz is very common and sometimes is the default.

By artifacts I mean little colors here and there that pop out of no where when watching dvd's (and vcds). I know this for sure because my dad first got his samsung lcd when he had his old computer and only used the analog input since his graphics card didnt' have a DVI input. When he got his new comp (same graphics card as yours), i put it thru the dvi for him and all those artifacts disappeared. It sounds really fishy i know, but it fixed those for sure.
His DOS accounting program also had weird strips of black lines that disappeared once the DVI input was used. An isolated incident, but still a problem nonetheless.

One last thing you have to worry about with LCD's are dead pixels. I forgot the rule for it, it's something like if you have more than 4 dead pixels on the lcd you can return it to the manufacturer and they send you a new one. If you have 2, you can return it to the place you bought your comp from. Something like that.
Dead pixels are very common with LCD's, so make sure u check that when you get your comp.

[Forky]

It's not a dud. Not by any stretch of the imagination. It won't make any of your 3D games unplayable. Not by a long shot. It's just noticeable, that's all.

Remember, Bashi is a techhead, and teachheads by definition are 'perfectionists'. Any little glitch or abnormality (even if it doesn't affect playability) is noticed by this breed of people.

TFT's are superior in terms of picture quality and they don't go out of focus like your CRT monitors can over time.

Don't worry about you're systems. It's great. All parts of it are above par. Well above par.

[bishibashiboy]

hahaha dammit Forky, you make me sound like some kinda compulsive perfectionist that's hard to please.

I just think if you're gonna pay for something, you should make a smart choice about it and know what you're getting.

Sorry if I sound like I'm pointing out so many bad things all the time. Truth is I'm jealous , cuz your system IS very nice, and I'd be happy to have what you got (cept the graphics card).
Just a few quirks here and there that you should be aware of that's all!

oh btw Jase, which Ps2 --> PC converter are they giving you? I wanna get one too, but dunno how well they work. Keep me updated on that k? Thanks!

[Forky]

Good to see you take it all in good humour!

All the points you make are very valid and things that any computer buyer should know about. I'm just putting the common persons touch on things!

[diafenes]

hi there,

I've got a geforce4 ti4200 video card, how does it compare with the current standard (if there is such a thing, things change so fast) of video cards?

I've heard later versions aren't as good as the ti4200 i.e. fx 5600. that's got me like:

[Superchunk]

I don't know much about LCD as I haven't had any desire to have one, but if you turn Vsync on and limited to 60 fps (which they say is the most the human eye can see, and from my experience I agree as long as it is always above 60) then would you still see the ghosting?

Considering you can get a used 21 Trinitron CRT and a very fast video card for the same price as a LCD I would never get one myself.

Here is a "Gamers guide to LCD Monitors". Seems like a decent read.

http://www.monitorsdirect.com/before/expert/jims_corner/munchies.shtml

[Superchunk]

Diafenes: I recently upgraded from a Ti4200...I would say that card is in the range where it is really gonna be a trial and error. It should still be good enough for most games, but you will have to toy around a bit to see what settings work best. Live 2004 may have to be run at lower resolutions. It isn't a bad card at all, but it is certainly leaning towards being an outdated card.

I would think about overclocking it to squeeze some more performance out of it. If you haven't overclocked a video card before, it is a pretty safe and easy thing to do, but you will want to make sure your case temperatures are decent first as it can increase heat and if your case is hot you will get artifacts before you get to much of an o/c. If you want a bit of a rundown on overclocking your video card I'd be happy to help.