Microsoft is Successful once again

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Postby CERVANTES on Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:42 am

cyanide wrote:
Joe' wrote:Always wondered what those side buttons are for, though. I heard you can set them to your preferences (ie. right-side-button opens Dashboard, left-side-button opens Exposé, etc.) but what do they do by default?


Actually if you squeeze the side buttons, you can assign a function. By pushing down on the trackball, you can trigger another function. So how I have it set now is at 2 buttons, the middle button to trigger Dashboard, and the sides to trigger Exposé.


Yeah, I have the same configuration. It's a very fast way to move through your finder.
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Postby cyanide on Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:58 am

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Postby el badman on Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:16 am

Yeah, it's so hard to disable the UAC... :roll:
Apple's strategy is certainly paying off but it's pretty easy when you're only targeting uneducated PC users who are unlikely to look for a solution as soon as they run into an obstacle with Vista.
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Postby cyanide on Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:51 pm

el badman wrote:it's pretty easy when you're only targeting uneducated PC users who are unlikely to look for a solution as soon as they run into an obstacle with Vista.


You say Vista has obstacles? OS X has none :P
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Postby maceo24 on Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:45 pm

Apple is sorta like the Yankees to me. (Mets Fan). By law I must hate them with a passion, but I kinda have no choice but to respect them. :|

To an experienced computer user, vista's obstacles really cant even be considered obstacles. Just annnoyances that keep your techno-retarded father in law from fucking up your shit when he comes to your house on Christmas eve.

OSX might not have the same issues, but it also wont be getting CRYSIS before 2010... The most stable (tinge of sarcasm) operating system in the world is still toting Doom 3 as a marquee game title. Welcome to 2004? Just a tad late i think. Oh yeah, who remembers the bugdom demo? :mrgreen:
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Postby cyanide on Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:34 pm

I know what you mean; I actually used to hate Macs. I thought they were overrated until I actually gave it a shot after learning some key features and usability tips.

It's not a gaming machine, I'm not denying that, and maybe that's one aspect I miss but don't need. It's an excellent productivity machine. I can get my design work done 2-5 times faster than on Windows XP. In fact, my current project was projected to take a week and a half to complete, and I'm almost finished it after three days. I can, and do play Call of Duty 2 and Civilization IV, but there are some nice games coming for the Mac soon, including a few EA Sports titles, Gears of War, and Unreal Tournament 3. Some people install Windows on their Mac using Parallels to play PC games, but that's something I'll explore another time.
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Postby maceo24 on Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:02 am

Its just nitpicking, lol. I know macs kick ass on the productivity side. And while playing games isnt (well, shouldnt be) the primary focus of a work machine, I dont like having to either have a differnent machine to do so, or jump through hoops and HAVING to install a different OS on the same machine. While PCs arent the most productive, or cool looking (unless you build them yourself), or safe for that matter, you have to give the windows platform credit for being able to run just about anything.

Anything meaning 80 percent of the crapware being released ATM (live 07 included).
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Postby cyanide on Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:27 am

Hehe, the irony is that Windows still has trouble running just about anything given that every application will probably go through at least one crash ;) It's just that software developers makes programs for Windows because that's where the biggest market, and therefore, money is. If software developers wanted to, they can develop programs for both operating systems, or just for Macs. Also, I agree that it's annoying, at least to me, to install a different OS on the same machine. It'd be nice to play PC games through a single Mac program. I think there is a program out there that does that, but it's very poor on the compatibility side.
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Postby Joe' on Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:57 am

I believe Parallels or VMWare let you play games on a Mac without having to boot Windows. It was on the last Leopard keynote, when they announced BootCamp.
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Postby benji on Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:32 am

cyanide wrote:Hehe, the irony is that Windows still has trouble running just about anything given that every application will probably go through at least one crash ;)

Hmm...I've had two BSODs since 1997. Both on Windows 98. And the last program to crash on me was iTunes a year and a half ago the one time I used it...although sometimes my DVD drive is not released. But that's a hardware issue, it doesn't report correctly to the motherboard.

Windows is only unstable if people use it improperly. You know, when a person boots their computer and the system tray reaches halfway across the task bar because of all the on-boot programs and services.

XP after SP2 is easily the most stable Windows ever and the biggest reason not to upgrade to Vista. It generally will never crash if you aren't allowing programs unrestricted access to every part of your computer. And if you're not an idiot you wouldn't get virii and spyware anyway.
It's just that software developers makes programs for Windows because that's where the biggest market, and therefore, money is. If software developers wanted to, they can develop programs for both operating systems, or just for Macs

I think if most software developers had a choice...they'd write for linux.

"Both OSes" like there isn't a third superior one... :roll:
It's an excellent productivity machine. I can get my design work done 2-5 times faster than on Windows XP. In fact, my current project was projected to take a week and a half to complete, and I'm almost finished it after three days.

What kind of projects? I guess I don't see how something would be easier just with a slightly different GUI and system interfaces? Laziness holds me back more than Windows or the MacOS ever could.
I believe Parallels or VMWare let you play games on a Mac without having to boot Windows.

VMWare lets you play games? It won't even run NBA Live 2000. Even though it claims to be recompiling DX8 calls through to OGL2. Although I believe Fusion is running on the 7 codebase and I'm using 6. I wish they'd rewrite the Windows one so it just makes DirectX calls straight to my hardware. They know I'm running on Windows as I'm running the Windows version of their software.

Ideally, we'd all just use Linux. It's better than both Windows and MacOS. I know I'd just use it if the purpose of my PC was not videah games. Especially since every program I already use except Excel 2007 (The first truly great Office build. Dumping old code and rewriting from the ground up ftw!) and uTorrent have Linux builds. (And the future of mankind: Steam...is Windows only. Until that changes....)

I also have nightmares of older MacOSes still, and an adversion to supporting Steve Jobs. I'd rather support this psychopath if I'm supporting psychopaths.
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Postby cyanide on Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:58 am

benji wrote:"Both OSes" like there isn't a third superior one... :roll:


Sorry, benji. I should've thrown Linux in there. Maybe I should include OpenBSD? :P

benji wrote:What kind of projects? I guess I don't see how something would be easier just with a slightly different GUI and system interfaces? Laziness holds me back more than Windows or the MacOS ever could.


A book project I'm working on right now, compiling and placing scans and text from external folders and files. I have multiple windows open all the time, so I find myself cycling through windows with ease with cmd-tab and cmd-` to switch through applications or windows of the same application. Occasionally, expose will do the trick, and if I need to go to the desktop, a flick of the mouse to a hot corner will hide all the windows. If I'm finding some applications are getting too cluttered, I could hide all apps by pressing cmd-h or option-click the application icon on the dock. To browse through the Finder, I have it in column format so I can jump through folders within seconds with letters and the arrow keys. No need to open/close programs, click a start menu > programs > etc, or have trouble finding a window when the taskbar becomes too cluttered. Maybe the tasks become easier in Windows if I memorized some keyboard shortcuts, but it's how the GUI is set up that saves me a lot of time.
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Postby benji on Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:49 am

You can attack Windows, it's cool to attack the popular kid. You can even attack Macs and get away rather unscathed because they're the "art" nerd. But you attack Linux and hell will rain down on ye.

Or so I've heard...
A book project I'm working on right now....Maybe the tasks become easier in Windows if I memorized some keyboard shortcuts, but it's how the GUI is set up that saves me a lot of time.

To be honest, nothing you've said sounds like anything I don't do or couldn't do every minute of the day. I mean Windows comes preset with "Show Desktop" there on the taskbar. Not that I use it since I rarely visit the desktop except to launch a resource intensive game. I use to flip through Explorer like you do Finder, but I've become lazy with age and just mouse my way now. You've memorized some keyboard shortcuts in MacOS, so I don't see why that's a problem with Windows? GNOME/KDE blows away both Win/Mac in default functionality and shortcuts, you'd probably move even faster on that.

I think you're blowing things way out of proportion with claims like "No need to open/close programs, click a start menu > programs > etc, or have trouble finding a window when the taskbar becomes too cluttered." Like things suddenly go insane if you run more than two programs in Windows. The dock is just a hybrid of the taskbar, system tray and quickstart. Windows is document centric so quick start and the tray are small, task bar big. I personally don't know why anyone wouldn't put things they use often either in the quick start menu or pin them to the inside of the start menu. And I certainly have never had my taskbar cluttered, I'd probably have to have over 25 individual windows open at all times (assuming I wouldn't group them) before it became a hassle. I usually do seven or eight things at once but they can be contained in a few windows. (I mean like Opera/Pidgin/Excel tabs.)

Also, that it's somehow five times faster to trade an extra click here, for an extra click somewhere else. There's basically nothing you can't do on all three of the viable operating systems. Efficiency is determined by the user and programs, not the OS anymore. Once you get a handle for an OS, any productivity difference is going to be 1% at best. If the GUI design of the MacOS motivates you to work better, that's good. I just hear the "productivity" and "no viruses!" cases all the time and they're both strawmen. Especially when most of the cases made to support MacOS are made better by Linux.
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Postby magius on Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:23 am

personally, there are certain things that make osx more productive than windows. in no particular order, for me, they are -

1. quicksilver - used the right way can save countless mouse clicks and searching, this DOES add up, believe me.

2. expose - same as quicksilver, in that it saves mouse clicks and searching. Helps incredibly when working with multiple documents, also it allows me to quickly access dashboard widgets which have in the past saved me the time of loading either the browser or searching for particular things.

3. stability, xp is stable, don't get me wrong, and, of course, if you "use it right" it could hypothetically be equally stable. But, the point is that you don't have to use an OSX "right"... it simply IS stable. Personally I would rather use a product that works straight away than have to tweak another thing to achieve the same end.

4. no/less maintenance required.

5. this may be a (more) personal/subjective thing, I don't know, but sometimes when I'm using xp it feels like I'm somehow working 'against' the os. It just seems to sometimes make things difficult for no real reason, and then I have to go around looking for an answer which drives me mad. osx, more often than not, I can just focus on what I'm doing; the os doesn't get in the way. also, i find dual tasking or even triple tasking with a mac MUCH more effective, I am not sure why.

that said, in the end, if you customize windows xp to your liking, productivity is negligible really.... its never happenned to me, but I'm sure it can happen (because, obviously, in benji and others case it has). Again though, from personal experience the average time of doing things has been incrementally cut with a switchover to mac. Perhaps its just up to preference though, who knows - I don't really care what others think is better, I've tried both and I've found OSX faster, and that is that.
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Postby Joe' on Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:25 am

Not that I want to get into a discussion with you, Benji. I'd get pwned. Everyone would. But one thing OS X has that no other OS has is quality software built-in.

I mean, all Linux distros have built-in software, but we can't exactly say the quality is top notch. It's pretty darn good considering it's open-source but it's not nearly as good as any of the software developed by Apple that comes bundled in OS X.

Another thing OS X has over Windoze and Linux is the unified look of the UI: Since almost every application commonly used on a Mac is made by Apple, the looks and the features of the apps are very similar, if not identical.

Also, the ease of use present on OS X is not present on Linux (I don't know you, but I don't like the fact that the OS is made in such way that you have to use the Terminal every time you have to install an application).
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Postby cyanide on Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:42 am

benji wrote:I think you're blowing things way out of proportion with claims like "No need to open/close programs, click a start menu > programs > etc, or have trouble finding a window when the taskbar becomes too cluttered." Like things suddenly go insane if you run more than two programs in Windows. The dock is just a hybrid of the taskbar, system tray and quickstart. Windows is document centric so quick start and the tray are small, task bar big. I personally don't know why anyone wouldn't put things they use often either in the quick start menu or pin them to the inside of the start menu. And I certainly have never had my taskbar cluttered, I'd probably have to have over 25 individual windows open at all times (assuming I wouldn't group them) before it became a hassle. I usually do seven or eight things at once but they can be contained in a few windows. (I mean like Opera/Pidgin/Excel tabs.)


The thing is, I do have a lot of programs or windows open. Right now, I have Finder, Firefox, Vienna (RSS Reader), Apple Mail, Address Book, Photoshop, Illustrator, Dreamweaver, InDesign, Bridge, Acrobat, iTunes, FontExplorer X, CyberDuck FTP, and TextEdit currently running right now. All of these programs can be used at an instant without having to wait to open it, and any of those programs or windows can be hidden with a couple keystrokes so I can focus on specific tasks. The system tray is essentially like the dock, but it's so tiny and it gets cluttered easily. And when it does get cluttered, I may have to open and close the annoying arrow. I dunno, my experience with Windows for the past 13+ years vs a few months on Mac is just vastly different.

benji wrote:Also, that it's somehow five times faster to trade an extra click here, for an extra click somewhere else.


It's five times faster to open an application that I rarely use on my machine with literally few keystrokes with Quicksilver, for example: ctrl-space to activate Quicksilver, type "trans" to give the best possible file/application match (it's instantaneous) and so I get the program Transmission. I press Enter, bingo. With Windows, it's likely a click, move mouse, click, search for program folder, click/highlight, then click.

Essentially, it's not a matter of mouse clicks; it's a matter of keyboard shortcuts that cuts down the time. I find that with the mouse, I get things done a lot slower than with the keyboard or keyboard/mouse combo.
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Postby benji on Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:48 am

Let me start by first saying I don't have a problem with anyone using MacOS, and I'd never argue that people should switch to Windows. I'm just saying that a lot of this stuff is overblown, the differences between OSes (other than amount of software available) are minimal, and if you're good enough to be efficient with one, you will be with another. If you're happy with MacOS, or Windows, or BeOs, or whatever, that's great, keep using it. I guess it is very much about perception, for some people they sit down with a Mac and find it far easier. I can sit down with Windows, MacOS, or KDE/GNOME and within five minutes being moving just as efficiently through them each. (Windows in no time, simply because I use it everyday and don't have to do that slight adjusting of "oh, this is here in KDE" first time I do it.)
Essentially, it's not a matter of mouse clicks; it's a matter of keyboard shortcuts that cuts down the time.

But I thought you were complaining you'd have to learn keyboard shortcuts in Windows. ;)
Right now, I have Finder, Firefox, Vienna (RSS Reader), Apple Mail, Address Book, Photoshop, Illustrator, Dreamweaver, InDesign, Bridge, Acrobat, iTunes, FontExplorer X, CyberDuck FTP, and TextEdit currently running right now. All of these programs can be used at an instant without having to wait to open it, and any of those programs or windows can be hidden with a couple keystrokes so I can focus on specific tasks.

Again, a lot of this here is usage difference. For one thing, I don't have any wait time to launch programs on my PC (unless they are resource hogs like a game, or they need to connect like Skype) that aren't running, but I have a fairly fast PC. Unix based systems are a lot better at swapping programs in and out. Definately a Windows weakness, but I also wouldn't run all those progams at once simply because I like to see my CPU sitting idle most of the time incase I'm going to need it for encoding or something at moments notice.

I can switch between open programs instantly and hide them as well, the only difference between the two is the fact that Unix can keep them "running" out of memory, Windows can't. (I say Unix to allow me to specify Linux as well as MacOS.) The difference is more how the systems work, not how we experience them.
With Windows, it's likely a click, move mouse, click, search for program folder, click/highlight, then click.

Again, you're exaggerating a bit. There are numerous ways to launch a program in Windows, not just clicking on the start menu (which you can also move through without clicking each time) I mean I run a lot of stuff with Windows+R -> program name.
3. stability, xp is stable, don't get me wrong, and, of course, if you "use it right" it could hypothetically be equally stable. But, the point is that you don't have to use an OSX "right"... it simply IS stable. Personally I would rather use a product that works straight away than have to tweak another thing to achieve the same end.

Here's what I've "tweaked" in Windows:
1. Switched to "Classic" view because I hate Luna.
2. Turned off Automatic Updates and Windows Firewall.
3. Set it to auto login so I don't have to click the lone user account.

I certainly don't use Windows "right" either. I install drivers and programs on top of each other, disable and reenable hardware, swap nvidia drivers five or six times in a row.

What I mean, is these people who will install AIM, MSN, Yahoo!, Norton, Zone Alarm, five copies of LimeWire, two Ares, BitComent, BitTorrent, Kazaa, etc. al. And have them all start at boot, along with all their little extra programs, toolbars and spyware. People who never update their stuff properly, so when Windows runs an automatic updates, it creates a bigger mess as they had broke it to start with. Meanwhile they run IE6 to check their mail, while using FireFox to browse the internet. I assume you aren't doing that crap to your Macs.

I have three things run on boot: Sunbelt, PeerGuardian, Gmail Notifier. I run Opera, Steam and Pidgin almost all the time, and utorrent usually joins them. I don't have a mess, I never find anything but cookies. Subsequently, I never have stability issues with XP. (Unless it is my doing, such as tinkering with game files, causing said game to crash. This is the cause of all my "button on case" reboots.)

Now, it's true for past Windows, especially ME, and for Vista, you can have stability issues just by things going crazy and breaking in the middle of it just running. But NT5 and especially XP after SP2, are VERY stable just running. That's why XP isn't fully backwards compatable with old Windows software, a lot of that software was written specifically on the problems in Windows or DOS. DOS was the biggest cause of Windows instability.
this may be a (more) personal/subjective thing, I don't know, but sometimes when I'm using xp it feels like I'm somehow working 'against' the os. It just seems to sometimes make things difficult for no real reason, and then I have to go around looking for an answer which drives me mad. osx, more often than not, I can just focus on what I'm doing; the os doesn't get in the way. also, i find dual tasking or even triple tasking with a mac MUCH more effective, I am not sure why.

See, I don't understand this. Windows never gets in my way. It does what I want it to always. Programs are another story, but that's where my focus is, on the applications. Windows sits there and lets me run my programs, and directorizes my files.

Now, I've had MacOS and Linux get in my way and I've had to work against those OSes at times. But I'm not saying that's an issue with them, it's an issue with me needing to figure out how to do something I haven't done on them before. I've had some of that with Windows when I'm doing something new of course as well.
that said, in the end, if you customize windows xp to your liking, productivity is negligible really.... its never happenned to me, but I'm sure it can happen (because, obviously, in benji and others case it has).

Again, my "customization" of Windows is basically non-existant. I turned off the "security center" and changed the theme to "Classic" but it may again just be me. I've seen "gamers" have to adjust to playing different consoles, and people who've logged as many or more hours than me on a PS2 have to look down to remember where the buttons are on a Dual Shock. It may just be I am able to adapt quickly. But I think the issues are not with the OSes, and primarly with the users.
Not that I want to get into a discussion with you, Benji. I'd get pwned. Everyone would. But one thing OS X has that no other OS has is quality software built-in.

I mean, all Linux distros have built-in software, but we can't exactly say the quality is top notch. It's pretty darn good considering it's open-source but it's not nearly as good as any of the software developed by Apple that comes bundled in OS X.

Now, see I think most Apple products are crap. I know iTunes and iChat are exceptions, but they are especially crap. To be fair, until Office 2007, Microsoft didn't produce any software that I wouldn't call crap either. But Office 2007's wonderfulness is currently blinding me to their other software debacles.

I'd also question the lack of "top notch" stuff. Yeah, Photoshop is better than GIMP. But pretty much all other GPL stuff is better. Amarok/Banshee...XMMS is Winamp...OpenOffice.org is superior or as good as any non Office 2007 Microsoft Office. You have stuff like Opera and Pidgin also on other OSes. I don't use Microsoft programs other than Office 2007, everything I use is basically third-party GPL stuff. (Except for Steam...oh Steam how I love thee.)
Another thing OS X has over Windoze and Linux is the unified look of the UI: Since almost every application commonly used on a Mac is made by Apple, the looks and the features of the apps are very similar, if not identical.

Well, there's two points here. For one, KDE does the same thing for any program with a K prefix. QT, GTK. Also, because a lot of Windows programs use the same APIs, they do turn out looking similar and identical. I don't think it's necessarily a great thing, though I wish I could make everything in Windows use ClearLooks.

Secondly, I don't know if "every application...made by Apple" is necessarily a good thing. ;)
Also, the ease of use present on OS X is not present on Linux (I don't know you, but I don't like the fact that the OS is made in such way that you have to use the Terminal every time you have to install an application).

Don't know when the last time you used Linux is? But I've almost never had to go into the Terminal for anything in years. We have RPM distribution now. Yum. Only crazy...er hardcore people use Slackware. I think most people are using Ubuntu, Fedora, or SUSE. I use Fedora personally as I think it's installation is the best.
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Postby cyanide on Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:23 pm

Well, it's clear you have a lot of experience with operating system and you know your stuff. I guess the one thing I should mention is the interface design. I find that with OS X, developers paid a lot of attention to usability and accessibility, not necessarily with keyboard shortcuts, but with how much attention to detail developers took into consideration of visual cues, how the dock works, how Expose can help accessibility, the placement of tools and menus, etc. It's the design and intuitive feel that I really appreciate, where in Windows I felt it was overlooked. Sure, Windows provides an operating system that can get the job, but OS X is the operating system I feel most comfortable in. I'd rather use the dock than the quicklaunch/system tray/taskbar hybrid because I feel it's more accessible and provides better usability even though both the Windows hybrid and the Mac dock could be set up to provide a similar setup arrangement. Information design is one area that I specialize in, and going through the OS, I picked a lot of subtle details that I really appreciate that I didn't see (or missed) when working with Windows.
if you were killed tomorrow, i WOULDNT GO 2 UR FUNERAL CUZ ID B N JAIL 4 KILLIN THE MOTHA FUCKER THAT KILLED U!
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Postby CERVANTES on Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:29 pm

I just gotta say that my mom learned to rip DVDs with our Mac in 2 minutes with Handbrake.

Macs are easier to use, and its' software it's simple yet powerful. That's why I stick with Mac. I preffer Apple Mail than Microsoft Crappy Outlook (even though I know Vista has a copy of Apple Mail that is called Windows Mail or whatever), Safari RSS >>>> IE7 RSS, iMovie > Movie Maker (for small video projects), Final Cut Studio >>>>>>>>>> Any other pro video app on Windows, just because it's easy to use, and with a Mac I can use up to 16 GB of RAM and an Octo Core if I need it. (King Kong movie was made with I think 3 or 4 Mac Pro's), iCal > Windows Calendar, iPhoto > My Pictures folder :D LOL. The best of all is that I can sync everything easily with iTunes, and every program talks to the others with ease.

DOCK & FINDER LOVER!!! F*** YOU, MY DOCUMENTS AND MY PC!! :P
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