Being a skeptical guy, I've been curious about exorcisms since... last night. In my relgious film classes, we were discussing The Exorcism of Emily Rose, and our teacher is a priest who has a PhD from Yale. He said that exorcisms are only performed if:
- The victim has supernatural powers such as flying (:shock:), superhuman strength such as creating a huge mark across wood with their fingers
- Speaking in a language that they have not learned
- Knowing about something that takes place in another country
- Knowing about personal secrets of the other person that was never revealed
Out of 5000 reported cases of exorcisms, only one is approved by the Church, where the other 4999 are most likely psychological issues, so the Church apparently takes these cases seriously and it only has to fit the above criteria.
The priest who gave the lecture yesterday said he went to one exorcism before, but left soon afterward because it was "too weird." He said that the lady was being exorcised (btw, exorcisms are usually done by 3-4 priests, not 1, and it takes place at a church). According to him, the lady was 70 years old, and was flying across the railings. The three priests had to hold her down while another priest gave the rites.
Pretty weird and shocking story.
Anybody else has stories they want to share regarding exorcisms, or want to make a comment regarding stuff like evil, demons, or possession?
Exorcisms
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Exorcisms
by cyanide on Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:51 am
if you were killed tomorrow, i WOULDNT GO 2 UR FUNERAL CUZ ID B N JAIL 4 KILLIN THE MOTHA FUCKER THAT KILLED U!
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by MG-Hass on Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:56 am
"the practice of evicting demons or other evil spiritual entities from a person of which they have possessed (taken control of). The practice is quite ancient and still part of the belief system of many religions.
The person performing the exorcism, known as an exorcist, is often a priest, or an individual thought to be graced with special powers or skills. The exorcist may use prayers, and religious material, such as set formulas, gestures, symbols, icons, amulets, etc.. The exorcist invokes God to actually perform the task.
In general, possessed persons are not regarded as evil in themselves, nor wholly responsible for their actions. Therefore, exorcism is generally thought more as a cure than as a punishment."
The person performing the exorcism, known as an exorcist, is often a priest, or an individual thought to be graced with special powers or skills. The exorcist may use prayers, and religious material, such as set formulas, gestures, symbols, icons, amulets, etc.. The exorcist invokes God to actually perform the task.
In general, possessed persons are not regarded as evil in themselves, nor wholly responsible for their actions. Therefore, exorcism is generally thought more as a cure than as a punishment."
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by Silas on Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:55 am
You're lucky to have a priest with a PhD from Yale, he'd be a cool guy to talk to.
I think the idea of an exorcism is pretty interesting, though obviously not a fun process. Though I'm not very religious myself, I do attend my catholic church every now and then (I used to go regularly) but the whole history of religion, specifically the history of Catholicism is pretty interesting.
I think the idea of an exorcism is pretty interesting, though obviously not a fun process. Though I'm not very religious myself, I do attend my catholic church every now and then (I used to go regularly) but the whole history of religion, specifically the history of Catholicism is pretty interesting.
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by --- on Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:31 pm
Alot of my family are Jehovahs Witnesses, and I actually grew up one. I have never seen an exorcism or anything like that, but my mum and nana often talked about "Demon Attacks". Being 5 years old and hearing your mum get thrown around in the hallway by something you can't see is definately something I would never want to go through again. The only time I ever had a "Demon Attack" with physical contact was about 4 years ago. I was lying in bed on my stomach, and I felt two hands push down on my upper back over my shoulder blades, it pushed me real deep into my matress and I couldn't breathe. When I tried to yell out "Mum" nothing came out. It was like I was put on mute.
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by Dan's Brain on Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:35 pm
why would you want an exorcism if youre flying or have superhuman strength?
BRING ON THE DEMONS!
BRING ON THE DEMONS!
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by Axel on Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:52 pm
Flite, Are you still JW? If not why did you leave the group?
[quote="Flite_23"]The only time I ever had a "Demon Attack" with physical contact was about 4 years ago. I was lying in bed on my stomach, and I felt two hands push down on my upper back over my shoulder blades, it pushed me real deep into my matress and I couldn't breathe. quote]
It's called an asthma attack. About 20 million people in the US can probably relate to that feeling.
[quote="Flite_23"]The only time I ever had a "Demon Attack" with physical contact was about 4 years ago. I was lying in bed on my stomach, and I felt two hands push down on my upper back over my shoulder blades, it pushed me real deep into my matress and I couldn't breathe. quote]
It's called an asthma attack. About 20 million people in the US can probably relate to that feeling.
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by Zoom on Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:06 pm
I've been a fan of the supernatural/paranormal. If it's never been proven not be true, then why not...
For many things there are 'scientific/natural' explanations but when nothing has an answer for a certain event then... it only adds to the mystery.
On the topic of Emily Rose, the actual German girl who died... her excorcism was apparantly allowed by the Catholic Church... And her parents and the priest were apparantly put in jail before having sentences suspended in real life... that was back in 70s i believe... freak stuff.
For many things there are 'scientific/natural' explanations but when nothing has an answer for a certain event then... it only adds to the mystery.
On the topic of Emily Rose, the actual German girl who died... her excorcism was apparantly allowed by the Catholic Church... And her parents and the priest were apparantly put in jail before having sentences suspended in real life... that was back in 70s i believe... freak stuff.
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by Cloudy on Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:55 pm
You mean if a person is really possessed by a spirit, s/he has to be able to fly or perform weird stuff? Last year we had a student at school, he summoned a ghost and he was crying and shit in the toilet, our school pastor read some bible verses and said he saw ghosts on the toilet ceiling... It's kinda weird, is that really a case of mental instability or self imagination? Because that pastor has encountered similar situations many times already.
Anyway, I never knew there is really a girl called Emily Rose... Isn't a brand of notebooks named Emily Rose? or Emily something.. Hahaha...
Edit: Went researching on wikipedia and found out the only one who went through the real exocism was Anneliese Michel... My bad
Anyway, I never knew there is really a girl called Emily Rose... Isn't a brand of notebooks named Emily Rose? or Emily something.. Hahaha...
Edit: Went researching on wikipedia and found out the only one who went through the real exocism was Anneliese Michel... My bad
Last edited by Cloudy on Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by --- on Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:01 pm
Axel, I left because I couldn't be fucked going to the meeting and stuff 3 times a week. My mum said once I was old enough to decide, I could leave, and I did.
Also, it was no asthma attack. I had asthma when I was alot younger and this was nothing like it. It didn't hurt, but I could feel the shape of hands and fingers on my back, plus I literally got pushed down into my mattress. I was shit scared, and when I told mum, she told me about all the times it has happened to her.
One thing I noticed is nothing would happen in one house, but then the next house that shit would happen all over again. I'm 17 years old and this house I'm in now is my 23rd, so I have had a few houses that had that weird feeling about them. Thats why I'm always cautious when moving house, because I been in that situation so many times.
Another thing is I always told my mum to keep pictures of her step dad outside of the house, like in the garage or something, because I was scared they would cause something "supernatural" to happen. Her step dad was murdered in front of her and my nana when she was 16. He was the only boyfriend of my grandmother that didn't beat her (my grandmother), so my mum grew really close to him, and she looked at him like her real father. After the murder, the mother of the guy who was killed (he was Maori - native New Zealander) put a curse on the murderers. There was 5 all up - 4 armed with guns and machetes who killed him, and a driver. I don't think the driver was ever "discovered", so the fucker got off. The rest of them are either crippled, crazy or dead. One guy actually died in a motorcycle crash about 2 minutes before my mum drove past that exact spot. I think 2 are still alive, one is crazy and the other guy is in a wheelchair. I went way off there, but the thing I'm trying to bring up was that since Maori are deeply spiritual, photos of the deceased can cause shit like that. My mums old boyfriend nearly burned the photos because my mum used to keep them under their bed in a box and he would have these crazy nightmares and people walking into the room, hearing gunshots, physical contact, etc. that would freak him out, so he wanted them gone. My mum still keeps them, but I convinced her to keep them out of the house at least.
I'l be surprised if I can sleep tonight.
Also, it was no asthma attack. I had asthma when I was alot younger and this was nothing like it. It didn't hurt, but I could feel the shape of hands and fingers on my back, plus I literally got pushed down into my mattress. I was shit scared, and when I told mum, she told me about all the times it has happened to her.
One thing I noticed is nothing would happen in one house, but then the next house that shit would happen all over again. I'm 17 years old and this house I'm in now is my 23rd, so I have had a few houses that had that weird feeling about them. Thats why I'm always cautious when moving house, because I been in that situation so many times.
Another thing is I always told my mum to keep pictures of her step dad outside of the house, like in the garage or something, because I was scared they would cause something "supernatural" to happen. Her step dad was murdered in front of her and my nana when she was 16. He was the only boyfriend of my grandmother that didn't beat her (my grandmother), so my mum grew really close to him, and she looked at him like her real father. After the murder, the mother of the guy who was killed (he was Maori - native New Zealander) put a curse on the murderers. There was 5 all up - 4 armed with guns and machetes who killed him, and a driver. I don't think the driver was ever "discovered", so the fucker got off. The rest of them are either crippled, crazy or dead. One guy actually died in a motorcycle crash about 2 minutes before my mum drove past that exact spot. I think 2 are still alive, one is crazy and the other guy is in a wheelchair. I went way off there, but the thing I'm trying to bring up was that since Maori are deeply spiritual, photos of the deceased can cause shit like that. My mums old boyfriend nearly burned the photos because my mum used to keep them under their bed in a box and he would have these crazy nightmares and people walking into the room, hearing gunshots, physical contact, etc. that would freak him out, so he wanted them gone. My mum still keeps them, but I convinced her to keep them out of the house at least.
I'l be surprised if I can sleep tonight.
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by Cloudy on Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:10 pm
From my point of view, all these stuff are just related to how you grow up and learn these things. Notice people in Japan always say they encounter some weird ass ghosts and spirits coming out of TV's, the more people talk about it, the more you think about it. Just like some other group of people who always say they see angels, the more you think and talk about it, your mind happens to generate some image to yourself... Dunno, there have been so many ghostly cases but in the end they are solved by scientific acts.
Edit: Take a look at these cases, for me it's just people thinking too much.
# Charity Miranda was suffocated with a plastic bag in 1998 in Sayville, New York by her mother and sister, during a Cuban Voodoo exorcism ritual.
# Korean woman Joanna Lee died in early December 2001, during a violent and prolonged exorcism performed in Auckland, New Zealand by Korean church minister Luke Lee. Her decomposing body was prayed over for several days before authorities were notified. During his subsequent trial, Luke Lee claimed that Joanna Lee would rise from the dead in a few days. She did not. Lee was imprisoned but has appealed the conviction.
# Terrance Cottrell Jr., an eight-year-old autistic child, died of asphyxiation in 2003 in Milwaukee, Wisconsin during an exorcism carried out by members of the Faith Temple Church of the Apostolic Faith, in an attempt to expel the boy's demons. The coroner ruled that the boy died "due to external chest compression" as the part-time pastor lay on top of him. On July 10, 2004, the pastor was convicted of child abuse.
# In 2005, Romanian nun Maricica Irina Cornici, 23, heard voices telling her she was sinful, and had been treated for schizophrenia. She was subjected to exorcism allegedly conducted by 29-year-old Daniel Petre Corogeanu, an Orthodox monk of the Holy Trinity convent in the nearby village of Tanacu. Cornici was bound to a cross, gagged with a towel, and left in a dark room without food or water for three days.[1][2] Initially it was believed that she died of suffocation and dehydration during the exorcism. However an autopsy carried out on the exhumed body showed that she died of an adrenaline overdose mistakenly administered by a medic.[3]
Btw, off-topic.. Every religion has some sort of evil spirits, does Scientology have one? Mr. Cruise?
Edit: Take a look at these cases, for me it's just people thinking too much.
# Charity Miranda was suffocated with a plastic bag in 1998 in Sayville, New York by her mother and sister, during a Cuban Voodoo exorcism ritual.
# Korean woman Joanna Lee died in early December 2001, during a violent and prolonged exorcism performed in Auckland, New Zealand by Korean church minister Luke Lee. Her decomposing body was prayed over for several days before authorities were notified. During his subsequent trial, Luke Lee claimed that Joanna Lee would rise from the dead in a few days. She did not. Lee was imprisoned but has appealed the conviction.
# Terrance Cottrell Jr., an eight-year-old autistic child, died of asphyxiation in 2003 in Milwaukee, Wisconsin during an exorcism carried out by members of the Faith Temple Church of the Apostolic Faith, in an attempt to expel the boy's demons. The coroner ruled that the boy died "due to external chest compression" as the part-time pastor lay on top of him. On July 10, 2004, the pastor was convicted of child abuse.
# In 2005, Romanian nun Maricica Irina Cornici, 23, heard voices telling her she was sinful, and had been treated for schizophrenia. She was subjected to exorcism allegedly conducted by 29-year-old Daniel Petre Corogeanu, an Orthodox monk of the Holy Trinity convent in the nearby village of Tanacu. Cornici was bound to a cross, gagged with a towel, and left in a dark room without food or water for three days.[1][2] Initially it was believed that she died of suffocation and dehydration during the exorcism. However an autopsy carried out on the exhumed body showed that she died of an adrenaline overdose mistakenly administered by a medic.[3]
Btw, off-topic.. Every religion has some sort of evil spirits, does Scientology have one? Mr. Cruise?
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by Zoom on Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:15 pm
Man Flite, sounds like you've lived a pretty tough life man. Your family's been through tough times. 
It's ok man. I believe ya!
It's not unusual for people to get strange feelings... especially kids man. Kids are more sensitive to this stuff because they are said to be innocent and 'vulnerable' man. My lil bro had nightmares and always cried when he was younger... prob when he was just 4 or 5 when we moved into our new house. We've had the worst luck ever since man...
It's ok man. I believe ya!
It's not unusual for people to get strange feelings... especially kids man. Kids are more sensitive to this stuff because they are said to be innocent and 'vulnerable' man. My lil bro had nightmares and always cried when he was younger... prob when he was just 4 or 5 when we moved into our new house. We've had the worst luck ever since man...- Zoom
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by --- on Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:36 pm
I didn't go through it, so it didn't really affect me. I feel bad for my mum though.
I agree with the kids thing. I also heard that babies can sense supernatural stuff far better than older people. That moving to a certain house = bad luck thing has also happened to me. I was sick all the time at my last house, and thats when I messed up my knees. I really havn't been the same since. Coincedence most likely though. Hope all gets well for you a.s.a.p man.
I agree with the kids thing. I also heard that babies can sense supernatural stuff far better than older people. That moving to a certain house = bad luck thing has also happened to me. I was sick all the time at my last house, and thats when I messed up my knees. I really havn't been the same since. Coincedence most likely though. Hope all gets well for you a.s.a.p man.
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by Zoom on Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:14 am
Flite, I meant tough as in everything... not just this stuff. 
Well, we've had this bad luck since we moved here 7 years ago... everything old and new breaks earlier than usual and just heaps of bad accidents happen. Basically ever since moving here, things have happened that we would just call bad luck. Sometimes I just think it's how life is but then I do remember my lil bro always cried and cired all the time whenever we moved here...
He always has nightmares and freaks me out whenever hes just standing in my doorway in the middle of the night... he seems like a different person... perhaps in a trance or something... I will see him and shout out and he would snap out of it and say he doesn't know wat happened. When i got used to it, I tried talking to him but he would just keep mumbling shit... about 3 years ago he got epilepsy... it seemed like it was overnight and his weight went up lots... We never expected anything like this man especially since my sister has issues too.
The thing is, my brother has never been himself since we moved here. He's become more to himself and doesn't talk to anyone. He's only improved this year after I've been teaching him to not to be scared of people. He still refuses to tell me what his nightmares are of and shit...
And seriously, no one believes me when I say that sometimes when I'm home alone or everything is quiet, I feel like something is watching me man. That's why I never look in the mirror at night when it's dark... perhaps it's me scaring myself but I get this weird feeling...
And just talked to my girlfirend on the phone and she did say this interesting thing, 'What happens to all the people who go missing...' Weird shit aye.
Well, we've had this bad luck since we moved here 7 years ago... everything old and new breaks earlier than usual and just heaps of bad accidents happen. Basically ever since moving here, things have happened that we would just call bad luck. Sometimes I just think it's how life is but then I do remember my lil bro always cried and cired all the time whenever we moved here...
He always has nightmares and freaks me out whenever hes just standing in my doorway in the middle of the night... he seems like a different person... perhaps in a trance or something... I will see him and shout out and he would snap out of it and say he doesn't know wat happened. When i got used to it, I tried talking to him but he would just keep mumbling shit... about 3 years ago he got epilepsy... it seemed like it was overnight and his weight went up lots... We never expected anything like this man especially since my sister has issues too.
The thing is, my brother has never been himself since we moved here. He's become more to himself and doesn't talk to anyone. He's only improved this year after I've been teaching him to not to be scared of people. He still refuses to tell me what his nightmares are of and shit...
And seriously, no one believes me when I say that sometimes when I'm home alone or everything is quiet, I feel like something is watching me man. That's why I never look in the mirror at night when it's dark... perhaps it's me scaring myself but I get this weird feeling...
And just talked to my girlfirend on the phone and she did say this interesting thing, 'What happens to all the people who go missing...' Weird shit aye.
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by Zoom on Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:34 am
I guarantee there has to be some people who go missing for other reasons than 'choosing to go missing'
Sure, some may get killed, die after getting lost, choose to hide but there has to be a certain number of people who may have gone missing for a different reason.
Sure, some may get killed, die after getting lost, choose to hide but there has to be a certain number of people who may have gone missing for a different reason.
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by MacGuyver on Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:47 am
let me share a story of a girl who live 10 blocks away from where i am now. 12 years ago she was only at the age of 12, when she was possessed[she migrated somewhere else now].
her skin went to full greenish yellow and with many sores all over, she would what most doctors would say a full hepatistic state and her liver and lungs starts to fail[she was hospitalized 2 weeks then the attacks got worst]. little did the doctors knew what went on during the noontime at her house.
they say that her voice would scream out latin, and cursed in aramaic languages, oddly enough she can over power 5-8 grown men and throw them all out like rag dolls.she waould also throw up liters of black fluids with smells like those of the sewers. the most terrifying would be when they say she will flip through the wall and behave like a lizard, she would jump from ceiling from floor and then hang on there and throw out after cursing.
i was a witness to this one time when they put in a quack doctor one afternoon, me and my buddies were there waiting to see this girl flash her undies, as they joke she would do. but to our amazement is that she lift the quackdoc and body slam him to the floor, she would then violently dance around like a maniac full of seduction and utter words with a voice sounding like a horse,cat,dog and human male voice combine.
we started to get scared and decided to leave the house, and so many people too who are present there, when there she is! with my own 2 eyes i saw her jump, planted her finger nails to the wall,extend her face and started screamin a spanish languaged term "PUTA IHA PUTA" all over again. she was swift and felt like a gecko flying leaping from wall to wall.
this goes on for days. and there was a time 3 preist tried to exorcise the 7 demons who claimed her body, they were protestants the priest. it didnt work out. the only thing that calmed her was when she was brought to the death place of her dad, a mere 100 meters away from here place. there the demons they say left her and vanished.
i also heard stories that she was molested and she started to see faces of evil demonic figures popping out of the darkness after her dad died of heart attack. it was strange to see this. and i have heard mostly girls are possessed, they fall pretty easily to demons and stuff. such weak creatures they are.
her skin went to full greenish yellow and with many sores all over, she would what most doctors would say a full hepatistic state and her liver and lungs starts to fail[she was hospitalized 2 weeks then the attacks got worst]. little did the doctors knew what went on during the noontime at her house.
they say that her voice would scream out latin, and cursed in aramaic languages, oddly enough she can over power 5-8 grown men and throw them all out like rag dolls.she waould also throw up liters of black fluids with smells like those of the sewers. the most terrifying would be when they say she will flip through the wall and behave like a lizard, she would jump from ceiling from floor and then hang on there and throw out after cursing.
i was a witness to this one time when they put in a quack doctor one afternoon, me and my buddies were there waiting to see this girl flash her undies, as they joke she would do. but to our amazement is that she lift the quackdoc and body slam him to the floor, she would then violently dance around like a maniac full of seduction and utter words with a voice sounding like a horse,cat,dog and human male voice combine.
we started to get scared and decided to leave the house, and so many people too who are present there, when there she is! with my own 2 eyes i saw her jump, planted her finger nails to the wall,extend her face and started screamin a spanish languaged term "PUTA IHA PUTA" all over again. she was swift and felt like a gecko flying leaping from wall to wall.
this goes on for days. and there was a time 3 preist tried to exorcise the 7 demons who claimed her body, they were protestants the priest. it didnt work out. the only thing that calmed her was when she was brought to the death place of her dad, a mere 100 meters away from here place. there the demons they say left her and vanished.
i also heard stories that she was molested and she started to see faces of evil demonic figures popping out of the darkness after her dad died of heart attack. it was strange to see this. and i have heard mostly girls are possessed, they fall pretty easily to demons and stuff. such weak creatures they are.
Last edited by MacGuyver on Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by cyanide on Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:43 am
Silas wrote:You're lucky to have a priest with a PhD from Yale, he'd be a cool guy to talk to.
He's very, very cool. He's not the average priest who is closed-minded and does preaching, but he's also very well-read in philosophy and psychology. And movies.
Flite and MacGuyver, very interesting stories. One thing I don't get is why were you and other people allowed to watch her? It's supposed to be closed-door and secretive, not some sort of exhibition?
if you were killed tomorrow, i WOULDNT GO 2 UR FUNERAL CUZ ID B N JAIL 4 KILLIN THE MOTHA FUCKER THAT KILLED U!
......|..___________________, ,
....../ `---______----|]
...../==o;;;;;;;;______.:/
.....), ---.(_(__) /
....// (..) ), ----"
...//___//
..//___//
.//___//
WE TRUE HOMIES
WE RIDE TOGETHER
WE DIE TOGETHER
......|..___________________, ,
....../ `---______----|]
...../==o;;;;;;;;______.:/
.....), ---.(_(__) /
....// (..) ), ----"
...//___//
..//___//
.//___//
WE TRUE HOMIES
WE RIDE TOGETHER
WE DIE TOGETHER
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by MacGuyver on Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:54 am
with all the noise she generated back then, you can hear her half a kilometer away, i think it wound't be that hard for her family to let neighbors grab a few looks there and there and maybe say a prayer or too. also she did shriek when the name Christo or Christ is said, i was told she even ask who was the Christ the priest is talking about, is it the Jew or the guy in the vatican was the demons question. man i remember those times so well, my mom would even start talking to the neighbors of having them evicted out as the entire hood is freaked out.
i visited 2x i think, the other visit was she was calmed and sleeping but one of her leg is lifted straight up! that they say were in that position for 2 whole days.
i visited 2x i think, the other visit was she was calmed and sleeping but one of her leg is lifted straight up! that they say were in that position for 2 whole days.
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by --- on Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:50 am
And seriously, no one believes me when I say that sometimes when I'm home alone or everything is quiet, I feel like something is watching me man. That's why I never look in the mirror at night when it's dark... perhaps it's me scaring myself but I get this weird feeling...
A house that I lived in about 2 years ago was like that. In my new house and about 90% of the houses I have lived in I can walk round the house in pitch black, hear a noise and not think about it, walk up and down stairs without watching my back which sounds pretty normal, but some houses I just couldn't do that.
That house I lived in had a feeling about it like someone was always behind me back watching me. Its a really bad feeling because it could be the middle of the day when I was at home alone and I would walk up the stairs and always be checking over my shoulder. Another thing is the air always felt "heavy".
MacGyver, that sounds pretty damn freaky. Never witnessed anything like that.
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by Zoom on Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:58 pm
Hey Flite, the weirdness factor is nasty when it's broad day light and you're home alone and you swear you hear something/one walking... especially on the stairs. Perhaps it's all imagined... but you know. Weird nonetheless...
The most weird things that's happened recently is that whenever I talk to my girlfriend on the phone at night, it sounds like someone is listening... I go and look and no one has touched our other phone and she says she didn't hear anything. Must be going crazy I am.
The most weird things that's happened recently is that whenever I talk to my girlfriend on the phone at night, it sounds like someone is listening... I go and look and no one has touched our other phone and she says she didn't hear anything. Must be going crazy I am.
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