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Warning! The contents of this thread is a long read.

Postby shadowgrin on Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:03 am

Quite a long read, 3 pages in all, but interesting nonetheless.
http://biz.yahoo.com/weekend/great_1.html

Some excerpts:

Research now shows that the lack of natural talent is irrelevant to great success. The secret? Painful and demanding practice and hard work

What makes Tiger Woods great? What made Berkshire Hathaway Chairman Warren Buffett the world's premier investor? We think we know: Each was a natural who came into the world with a gift for doing exactly what he ended up doing. As Buffett told Fortune not long ago, he was "wired at birth to allocate capital." It's a one-in-a-million thing. You've got it - or you don't.

Well, folks, it's not so simple. For one thing, you do not possess a natural gift for a certain job, because targeted natural gifts don't exist. (Sorry, Warren.) You are not a born CEO or investor or chess grandmaster. You will achieve greatness only through an enormous amount of hard work over many years. And not just any hard work, but work of a particular type that's demanding and painful.

Buffett, for instance, is famed for his discipline and the hours he spends studying financial statements of potential investment targets. The good news is that your lack of a natural gift is irrelevant - talent has little or nothing to do with greatness. You can make yourself into any number of things, and you can even make yourself great.

To see how the researchers could reach such a conclusion, consider the problem they were trying to solve. In virtually every field of endeavor, most people learn quickly at first, then more slowly and then stop developing completely. Yet a few do improve for years and even decades, and go on to greatness.

Reinforcing that no-free-lunch finding is vast evidence that even the most accomplished people need around ten years of hard work before becoming world-class, a pattern so well established researchers call it the ten-year rule.

What about Bobby Fischer, who became a chess grandmaster at 16? Turns out the rule holds: He'd had nine years of intensive study. And as John Horn of the University of Southern California and Hiromi Masunaga of California State University observe, "The ten-year rule represents a very rough estimate, and most researchers regard it as a minimum, not an average." In many fields (music, literature) elite performers need 20 or 30 years' experience before hitting their zenith.

So greatness isn't handed to anyone; it requires a lot of hard work. Yet that isn't enough, since many people work hard for decades without approaching greatness or even getting significantly better. What's missing?

Practice makes perfect

The best people in any field are those who devote the most hours to what the researchers call "deliberate practice." It's activity that's explicitly intended to improve performance, that reaches for objectives just beyond one's level of competence, provides feedback on results and involves high levels of repetition.

For example: Simply hitting a bucket of balls is not deliberate practice, which is why most golfers don't get better. Hitting an eight-iron 300 times with a goal of leaving the ball within 20 feet of the pin 80 percent of the time, continually observing results and making appropriate adjustments, and doing that for hours every day - that's deliberate practice.

Not all researchers are totally onboard with the myth-of-talent hypothesis, though their objections go to its edges rather than its center. For one thing, there are the intangibles. Two athletes might work equally hard, but what explains the ability of New England Patriots quarterback Tom Brady to perform at a higher level in the last two minutes of a game?

Researchers also note, for example, child prodigies who could speak, read or play music at an unusually early age. But on investigation those cases generally include highly involved parents. And many prodigies do not go on to greatness in their early field, while great performers include many who showed no special early aptitude.

Certainly some important traits are partly inherited, such as physical size and particular measures of intelligence, but those influence what a person doesn't do more than what he does; a five-footer will never be an NFL lineman, and a seven-footer will never be an Olympic gymnast. Even those restrictions are less severe than you'd expect: Ericsson notes, "Some international chess masters have IQs in the 90s." The more research that's done, the more solid the deliberate-practice model becomes.

Real-world examples

Many great athletes are legendary for the brutal discipline of their practice routines. In basketball, Michael Jordan practiced intensely beyond the already punishing team practices. (Had Jordan possessed some mammoth natural gift specifically for basketball, it seems unlikely he'd have been cut from his high school team.)

In football, all-time-great receiver Jerry Rice - passed up by 15 teams because they considered him too slow - practiced so hard that other players would get sick trying to keep up.

Tiger Woods is a textbook example of what the research shows. Because his father introduced him to golf at an extremely early age - 18 months - and encouraged him to practice intensively, Woods had racked up at least 15 years of practice by the time he became the youngest-ever winner of the U.S. Amateur Championship, at age 18. Also in line with the findings, he has never stopped trying to improve, devoting many hours a day to conditioning and practice, even remaking his swing twice because that's what it took to get even better.

Be the ball

Through the whole process, one of your goals is to build what the researchers call "mental models of your business" - pictures of how the elements fit together and influence one another. The more you work on it, the larger your mental models will become and the better your performance will grow.

Andy Grove could keep a model of a whole world-changing technology industry in his head and adapt Intel as needed. Bill Gates, Microsoft's founder, had the same knack: He could see at the dawn of the PC that his goal of a computer on every desk was realistic and would create an unimaginably large market. John D. Rockefeller, too, saw ahead when the world-changing new industry was oil. Napoleon was perhaps the greatest ever. He could not only hold all the elements of a vast battle in his mind but, more important, could also respond quickly when they shifted in unexpected ways.

That's a lot to focus on for the benefits of deliberate practice - and worthless without one more requirement: Do it regularly, not sporadically.

Why?

For most people, work is hard enough without pushing even harder. Those extra steps are so difficult and painful they almost never get done. That's the way it must be. If great performance were easy, it wouldn't be rare. Which leads to possibly the deepest question about greatness. While experts understand an enormous amount about the behavior that produces great performance, they understand very little about where that behavior comes from.

The authors of one study conclude, "We still do not know which factors encourage individuals to engage in deliberate practice." Or as University of Michigan business school professor Noel Tichy puts it after 30 years of working with managers, "Some people are much more motivated than others, and that's the existential question I cannot answer - why."

The critical reality is that we are not hostage to some naturally granted level of talent. We can make ourselves what we will. Strangely, that idea is not popular. People hate abandoning the notion that they would coast to fame and riches if they found their talent. But that view is tragically constraining, because when they hit life's inevitable bumps in the road, they conclude that they just aren't gifted and give up.

Maybe we can't expect most people to achieve greatness. It's just too demanding. But the striking, liberating news is that greatness isn't reserved for a preordained few. It is available to you and to everyone.


Which leads me to a question:
AI doesn't practice and yet he's still good.
Practice? Who needs practice? :crazy:
HE'S USING HYPNOSIS!
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Postby Matt on Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:23 am

you lied to me you dirty S.O.a.B.....that's not a long read.
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Postby bigh0rt on Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:00 pm

Good read. (Y)
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Postby hipn on Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:37 pm

Didn't read/10

LOL jokes, but seriously... can someone please summarize this? Please?
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Postby bigh0rt on Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:52 pm

Um, it's summarized in his quoted excerpts?
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Postby Oznogrd on Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:59 pm

shadowgrin, what are we talking about practice? We're talking about practice? come on man its practice! :lol:

Anyway i think i can answer your question there though. AI is just pure naturally lucky at playing this game. An example: in wheelchair track, there was me and this guy on my old team. I practiced 6 days a week, doing everything from technique work to strength training to stamina work...year round...he...did nothing but shoot hoops in his driveway. We get to our national competition. and guess what? he was right behind me. all 5 of our races were decided by a second or less (100 up to 1500)... Some people just have the gift...AI is one of them
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Postby Laxation on Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:04 pm

Thats an interesting read. Now if someone will pay me to train for basketball, Id be happy to do it all day as well... But until then looks like Ill have to keep blaming my lack of success of lack of natural ability :lol:
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Postby koberulz on Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:20 pm

illini wrote:shadowgrin, what are we talking about practice? We're talking about practice? come on man its practice! :lol:

Anyway i think i can answer your question there though. AI is just pure naturally lucky at playing this game.


either you didn't read the article, or you completely missed the point.
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Postby Laxation on Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:53 pm

koberulz wrote:
illini wrote:shadowgrin, what are we talking about practice? We're talking about practice? come on man its practice! :lol:

Anyway i think i can answer your question there though. AI is just pure naturally lucky at playing this game.


either you didn't read the article, or you completely missed the point.

You completely missed his point... search youtube for Iverson + practice
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Postby MacGuyver on Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:56 am

i once have sex with a girl with no practice or even experience at all. it sucks (N)
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Postby Tuomas on Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:21 am

Ohh K!

Nice read, especially the last part about motivation. Not many have it, I wish I did :(
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Postby Oznogrd on Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:24 am

kobe listen man...i dont give a crap what you say...i dont need to read the article, i live the pro athlete life. Just no one hears me because its wheelchair sports. Go look up some marathon times for Ernst Van Dyk, Kurt Fearnley, Krige Schabort, and Saul Mendoza. Those guys practiced. I know for a fact practice is the secret to being good at sports, it truly doesnt matter what sport. But there are some guys who are just damn good naturally and are such a statistical anomaly (dammit i sound like the matrix architecht, excuse me while i shoot myself) that not only are they good. they're elite naturally. AI practiced at some point i'm sure....but not anymore. So therefore, it has to be his abilitiy keeping him good
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Postby shadowgrin on Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:27 am

Matt wrote:you lied to me you dirty S.O.a.B.....that's not a long read.

Sorry. I know it's not really that long of a read but I do have to consider the majority of the NLSC posters who don't even bother to read. Like this one:
hipn wrote:can someone please summarize this? Please?

:P
i once have sex with a girl with no practice or even experience at all. it sucks

Lazy fuck, don't depend on the girl. You have to practice yourself, with other women, and not with ms. left and right hand.
HE'S USING HYPNOSIS!
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Postby Nick on Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:01 am

Wow, to be good at things recquires practice? Who would've thought!

A good examle of this is Michael Jordan. I could have my facts wrong, but as far as i know he was originally cut from the college side, which made him determined to work hard and get better. Problem is he worked too hard and got too good and beat Phoenix in '93.
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Postby Andrew on Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:35 pm

Nick wrote:A good examle of this is Michael Jordan. I could have my facts wrong, but as far as i know he was originally cut from the college side, which made him determined to work hard and get better. Problem is he worked too hard and got too good and beat Phoenix in '93.


Close; he was once cut from his high school varsity team, not the squad at North Carolina. ;)

Interesting read though I don't entirely agree with the cited example of Michael Jordan:

Many great athletes are legendary for the brutal discipline of their practice routines. In basketball, Michael Jordan practiced intensely beyond the already punishing team practices. (Had Jordan possessed some mammoth natural gift specifically for basketball, it seems unlikely he'd have been cut from his high school team.)


I don't think that's entirely accurate. I think his athleticism, hand-eye co-ordination and the fact he would eventually grow to a height of 6'6" are natural gifts that lend themselves to basketball. Such natural gifts wouldn't have necessarily saved him from being cut from the team since back then there wasn't the same enthusiasm about kids who were tremendous athletes but still needed to hone their basketball skills, something that has changed in the past couple of decades.

Having said that, I agree that his dedication to practice and honing his basketball skills are what made him successful since there are people who are naturally athletic but aren't good at basketball. The fact that his physical gifts can also lend themselves to other sports (he also played baseball and football in high school) also support that idea.
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Re: Warning! The contents of this thread is a long read.

Postby killer_cr0ss0ver on Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:49 pm

shadowgrin wrote:
Which leads me to a question:
AI doesn't practice and yet he's still good.
Practice? Who needs practice? :crazy:


Good but not good enough thats why they didnt win championships.
Unlike jordan that practices hard and got rewarded for the championship throphies and a name that will echo forever.
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Postby Laxation on Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:31 pm

I think this is sort of true to an extent.
There will always be the naturally gifted people, who will excel WITH practice. Then there is not so gifted people who also excel with practice, but they need a lot more practice to still not be as good.

For example. Jordan, would be naturally gifted. Add to that the extent he practices, and you got yourself a top player.
Then, there is guys like you and me. Can get better with practice, but without the natural ability, we will never be able to be as good as those in the NBA. This could even be because our bodies arent able to sustain the practice (i know mine wouldnt be able to)
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Postby koberulz on Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:00 pm

illini wrote:So therefore, it has to be his abilitiy keeping him good


and how do you suggest he got that ability? oh, practice, of course.

and what qualifies you to comment on something you haven't even read?
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Postby Laxation on Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:09 pm

koberulz wrote:
illini wrote:So therefore, it has to be his abilitiy keeping him good


and how do you suggest he got that ability? oh, practice, of course.

and what qualifies you to comment on something you haven't even read?

you didnt check youtube yet did you... :roll:
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Postby Zoom on Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:22 pm

Everyone knows that there are some who have natural ability... but it depends what you are talking about.

Athletic ability can't be given... you are either a freak athlete or you're not... if you could practise and make yourself good, everyone could be a 100m sprinter...

I beleive that there are certain things you can practise for. Anything in the category of sports, academics, music; you need practise in all of these to become good.

You don't wake up one morning and have a jumpshot. You don't wake up one morning to find that you can play an instrument. You don't wake up one morning to find that you remember the whole pereodic table.

There are definitely things you need to practise or you won't be able to do or know them...

However, although the article has some points I agree with, I think calling natural talent irrelvent is really stupid. You have to have, to some sort of degree, natural talent or you won't have the ability to be able to adapt your skills to what you are learning.

So waht if we thought of it this way? Dedication and work ethic should be part of someone's set of natural talent enabling them to work harder than others and therefore allowing them to practise harder... thus making them more succesful?

Well, that's what I think... not sure bout you lot!
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Postby koberulz on Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:37 am

Laxation wrote:
koberulz wrote:
illini wrote:So therefore, it has to be his abilitiy keeping him good


and how do you suggest he got that ability? oh, practice, of course.

and what qualifies you to comment on something you haven't even read?

you didnt check youtube yet did you... :roll:


i ran the search and read titles and descriptions, but i can't watch any of them due to my shitty internet connection until the end of the month. i still don't see how any of that is relevant anyhow.
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Postby Oznogrd on Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:37 am

kobe..note what i said...I AM A PRO ATHLETE FOR MY SPORT...i've seen thousands of articles that say this exact same thing. Which is why i'm commenting. As others have said, it depends on the person and its truly a blending of practice/ability to make the elite and best ever. The MJ example....he wasnt bad at baseball or golf. So why did he choose basketball? Because thats the sport his NATURAL given gifts lent him to be the best at. The videos btw, all show iverson being asked repeatedly why he doesnt practice and to paraphrase he says "i'm good enough already to not have to practice" As i've said before, i'm sure he practiced some point along the line. So obvioulsy that is not whats keeping him the stellar player he still is. It has to be his ability.
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Postby Zoom on Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:26 am

To emphasise on what illini said... one question: How did Iverson learn to play in the first place? It has got to be practise...
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Postby Laxation on Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:22 am

koberulz wrote: i still don't see how any of that is relevant anyhow.

so how about instead of opening your mouth and continuing to make yourself look stupid, you wait for it to load or just shut up.
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Postby Eugene on Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:16 pm

There has to be some innate ability (not necessarily having to do with physical gifts) that naturally incline one person to be better at something than another.

Consider Bobby Fischer--the article notes that he had 9 years of intensive study when he won Grandmaster at 16. Well, if he started when he was six or seven, any other average child at that age would not have the mental capabilities (most notably abstract thinking and perspective taking) that would make the training meaningful. Fischer must have had above average mental capabilities at a younger age to process the training.

In David Halberstam's book, Playing for Keeps, he quotes B.J. Armstrong describing Jordan's unique talent. Armstrong notes that Jordan had an almost preternatural ability to sense the flow of the game, and would be able to pick out the moment that the game was slipping away. Such an understanding would not be possible without some innate sensibility.

It seems to me, then, that people who are exceptionally successful in their fields are, at the most basic level, wired differently than we are. That's why we see examples of totured prodigies (Mozart, Faulkner) who cannot function normally in society because the way they think and way their mind works is so dissimilar from ours that we can't even understand them.

Hard work and practice is absolutely crucial. But it takes a certain kind of crazy to put in the time that most of these special people do. That, in and of itself, is a gift that separates the elite from the rest of their field.
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