Hey Riot

[bigh0rt]

Curious about what you think of this.

Who are the ones 'terrorizing' and killing 'innocent civilians'?

[Indy]

Oh geez what an original find.

[bigh0rt]

Oh geez what an original find.

Was this posted somewhere previously? I don't keep up with all the 'political discussion' down here, though I have noticed it takes place quite a bit, and who is on what side.

If it's something else, please explain your comment.

[iKe7in]

Come on, there's so obviously a liberal media bias that counts any blown off piece of a civilian as a seperate body. The real number is way more like 20,000.

[Ryan]

Could be less. could be more. Are they taking into account all the sectarian violence?

[Riot]

I'd like to see official sources (pural) that have determined these are all by American forces. Until then, I take this with a grain of salt.

[bigh0rt]

I'd like to see official sources (pural) that have determined these are all by American forces. Until then, I take this with a grain of salt.

But will you take the same information put out by the American government with the same grain of salt, or are we to just take their word as gospel?

I'm not looking to start an argument here. Just searching for some answers.

[Donatello]

Looks like bigh0rt is taking over for me. I'll stay out of this one.

[Joe']

Well, if those numbers are real, I still think 40,000 are still nothing compared to how many Saddam Hussain killed during his dictatorial government years. Don't get me wrong, 40,000 people are an inmense number of deaths, but I don't think those numbers are real.

[bigh0rt]

Looks like bigh0rt is taking over for me. I'll stay out of this one.

As I said in an earlier post, I'm not really sure where everyone sits, or what has and hasn't been discussed, so please do interject. When I came across this web site, I was interested to see what people would think about it, among other things.

Here's another question: how do you feel about the way our country has been treating its soldiers since the start of the war in Iraq? I, for one, know that if I were younger, there's no way I'd even be considering enlisting, the way they're sending people over there without proper gear and protection, along with the way they're pulling people back into active duty right at the end of their contracts, when they've already started their post-service lives.

So?

[Riot]

This is probably going to end up being a long post so beware. If you aren't interested in my side of the story, my opinion, then don't read it.

The number of innocent loss of life in this war has been huge. It's actually quite a shame that so many innocent people have had to die since the invasion. Is America to blame for the loss of life? Yes they are...sometimes directly and sometimes indirectly. Let me explain.

First off, our troops are doing the best they can out there. For the most part they are out there doing their job, a job that they aren't even trained to do. Right now they shouldn't be out there doing what we are doing in Iraq. This should be the job of the United Nations because our troops are not trained to be police in an urban area. Their training going into the war was very limited. They are the best trained troops in the world but this war is something they simply were not prepared for.

There have been quite a few intelligence mistakes by America and our allies. The intelligence our troops recieve has been completely unreliable throughout this war. The main reason for that is because all the Iraqi's are too scared to come forward and help the Americans. The majority of Iraqi's want to come forward and rat out the trouble makers. Whether you believe it or not that is the truth. The problem is if they are seen talking with our troops they could be kidnapped or killed. The terrorists, the insergents, are ruthless killers who will kill anyone who communicates with the Americans. Nobody wants to step up because they are afraid. Because of that the intelligence our troops get on the streets are often wrong and mistakes happen.

Picture this. You are a soldier in Iraq sitting inside your little trailor watching a DVD on your laptop when someone in your unit comes in and says the unit is going out on a raid. They found out where the guy who has been launching mortars at your base for the past two months lives and they are going to raid it. You get your gear and go out to the humvees. Your platoon leader gives you a quick briefing about the building and what he knows. Everyone seems confident that this will be the time that we get this fucker. Everyone hops in and you leave the gates. Thoughts race through your head. What if it's an ambush? What if isn't the right house? What if we hit an IED on the way there or home? What if I get shot? You check to make sure you have all your equipment ready and in places where you can easily grab them. You pull up to the house and your team gets into position. You are on the breach team in the back of the stack and your friend busts the door in. You and your platoon file into the room shouting "GET DOWN!" as your heart races. Your scan the room and you see a man and his family sitting in a room with a panic look on their face. You run in and shove them to the ground and tie the man up with a zippy. The kids are excited and seem happy to see the troops bust into their house. You start looking through their stuff looking for mortar rounds or anything illegal. You check under their mattress, in their drawers, under their couch, etc. You find nothing but an AK-47, which is legal. Whoops. You cut off the zippy and try to explain to the angry man that you are sorry. You don't understand him and he doesn't understand you. You try one last time to calm him before you leave. You hand out MREs and some blankets to the family and head back to the humvees. You think to yourself, "Damn. That family is going to hate Americans for the rest of their lives."

Those kind of things happen A LOT in Iraq. That is part of the reason why a lot of Iraqi's don't want our troops there anymore. You can understand their frustration and anger and it's all because the intelligence isn't there. There has to be some kind of improvement on getting better intelligence. So far though, that has not happened.

Here is the main point of this post. The reason why the Iraqi's were so happy to see us is because they wanted freedom and safety. We gave them freedom but we have yet to give them safety. There are too many car bombs, kidnappings and murders for our troops to handle. They are not suppose to be police men. The Iraqi police is corrupt and untrained. Our troops are busying trying to train them, as well. There seems to be no law there. Looting is extremely bad in most parts of Baghdad and Iraqi's are upset. People are murdering neighbors because of past rivalries dating back to the Saddam era. Atleast under Saddam there was some sense of control. There is no control right now. We need more troops there or else there will never be any control.

I'd say atleast 2/3 of those casulties are from fellow Iraqi's (just normal crime) or from foreign fighters taking up arms against democracy. You could say that America indirectly caused it, and that would be true, but you can't fault them for it. We need more troops there because the borders aren't secure and the people aren't safe. Until those two things can get done we will never see the end of this violence. And until that happens the Iraqi people will want our troops out of Iraq.

America is not terrorizing Iraq. America is not killing innocent civilians. The problem is Iraqi's are killing each other and terrorists are trying to stop democracy from succeeding in Iraq. Those are the two major leaders in that death total. And like I said, the only way to fix that is to bring in more troops. We can do this and we can make Iraq a great place to live but it's going to take time and more man power to do it.

The problem with people attacking the war is that they think there are two options in Iraq. You can either stay the course or go home. That is not true. Neither of those options are going to make Iraq a safe place. You need to add the number of troops, increase the amount of intelligence officers we have in Iraq, give our troops better equipment, make it easier for our troops to engage the enemy and secure the borders. Rumsfeld insists that changes don't need to be made in the way this war is being fought. I disagree and I think we need to start changing our gameplan in this war if we want to win it in the next five years.

[bigh0rt]

So now answer this: can you support both our troops, and the war in Iraq? I argue that no you cannot, based on the way our troops have been treated since the war began, and the way they are continuing to be treated to this very day. I, myself, support our troops, wish them all the best, and wish them home safely and soon. Which do you support?

EDIT: You want to send more troops to Iraq? Are you hopping in line? Which branch are you registering for?

Are those bombs we've been dropping that have landed on thousands of innocent people 'indirectly' our fault too??

[Dro]

Riot, I don't think anybody is blaming the troops for what's going on in Iraq. I understand that it's insurgents and terrorist cunts that are causing the majority of civilian deaths in Iraq, but as you said, it's "indirectly" caused by America. Basically, the US Government is responsible for all of these civilian deaths, that's the bottom line. But as a country, we have to forget about the debate of whether we should have gone into Iraq or not. We didn't go into Iraq for WMDs...hell, I don't think "liberation" had anything to do with it. If we really cared about people suffering, we would have troops on the ground in the Sudan. In my opinion, we went to Iraq partly for oil, but mostly to put pressure on Iran. US boots are on the ground on Iran's east and west borders.

The question becomes, will the US eventually put troops in Iran? I wouldn't be surprised if it happened before Bush's presidency is over (it'll be any day now!).

[bigh0rt]

Thoughts?

What's sad is that when our prisoners are tortured or capture in secret prison's we cry foul; yet when we do it -- ts just a disagreement of policy between us and Amnesty International.

If you are for torturing prisoners and keeping them in secret facilities then don't complain when it happens to our soldiers.

Matt Lauer: And yet you admitted that there were these CIA secret facilities. OK?

President Bush: So what? Why is that not within the law?


Matt Lauer: The head of Amnesty International says secret sites are against international law.

President Bush: Well, we just disagree with him. Plus, my job is to protect you. And most American people, if I said [to them] that we had who we think is the mastermind of the 9/11, they would say, “Why don’t you see if you can’t get information without torturing him,” which is what we did.



Matt Lauer: I don’t want to let this “within the law issue” slip though. I mean, if, in fact, there was water boarding used with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, and for the viewers, that’s basically when you strap someone to a board and you make them feel as if they’re going to drown by putting them underwater, if that was legal and within the law, why couldn’t you do it at Guantanamo? Why did you have to go to a secret location around the world?

President Bush: I’m not going to talk about techniques. And, I’m not going explain to the enemy what we’re doing. All I’m telling you is that you’ve asked me whether or not we’re doing things to protect the American people, and I want the American people to know we are doing so.

Link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14737256/

[Riot]

So now answer this: can you support both our troops, and the war in Iraq? I argue that no you cannot, based on the way our troops have been treated since the war began, and the way they are continuing to be treated to this very day. I, myself, support our troops, wish them all the best, and wish them home safely and soon. Which do you support?

Yes you can because I do support both. I obviously love and support all our troops overseas because they are giving the ultimate sacrafice. I also support the war because I think the Iraqi people deserve freedom and that Saddam was a horrible person who should not be in power. The answer is easy to me. President Bush believes in the war and he supports our troops. A lot of people support both.

EDIT: You want to send more troops to Iraq? Are you hopping in line? Which branch are you registering for?

Yes...we need more troops on the ground in Iraq. Our troops are stretched too thin right now to help the struggling country. I will be enlisting in the United States Army in a year or two and I will volunteer to go to Iraq.

Are those bombs we've been dropping that have landed on thousands of innocent people 'indirectly' our fault too??

No...those are directly our fault. A lot of that has to do with bad intelligence, too. We are told by sources that someone bad is in that building that we need to take out. Both the troops and the government are doing their best to avoid any kind of civilian death but the reality of war is that it is unpredictable and bloody. We are fighting a war in an urban area against enemies who dress up like civilians. It's hard to tell who is a civilian and who is not. That is another reason why I question the number of the death total. How do we know those people were innocent? Many of the people who attack our troops do it only as a mere hobby. Most of them are family men who work for a living and love their families. You wouldn't be able to tell if they are innocent or guilty just by looking at them or asking their family.

Riot, I don't think anybody is blaming the troops for what's going on in Iraq.

Yes, there are people who are.

I understand that it's insurgents and terrorist cunts that are causing the majority of civilian deaths in Iraq, but as you said, it's "indirectly" caused by America. Basically, the US Government is responsible for all of these civilian deaths, that's the bottom line.

Yay! So let's blame the country that is trying to wipe these "terrorist cunts" off the map instead of the actual terrorists! That is a brillant idea. This is excatly what is wrong with the media and the country today. You should hold the terrorists reponsible for their awful actions. How can you blame America for trying to fight them? Do you blame America and Britian for standing up and fighting the Nazi's?

But as a country, we have to forget about the debate of whether we should have gone into Iraq or not. We didn't go into Iraq for WMDs...hell, I don't think "liberation" had anything to do with it. If we really cared about people suffering, we would have troops on the ground in the Sudan.

We do have troops in Sudan.

In my opinion, we went to Iraq partly for oil, but mostly to put pressure on Iran. US boots are on the ground on Iran's east and west borders.

We did it for a lot of different reasons. I think it is a combination of a lot of things. I think honestly and truely President Bush wanted to free the Iraqi people and eliminate Saddam. He also wanted to put pressure on Iran like you said. However, I think the even bigger part is the fact that he wants to end terrorism in the Middle East. The best way to do that is to set up a pro-west democratic state in Iraq. If you can get Iraq to become the success Israel is then you have a lot of leverage in the Middle East. We are trying to forces countries to become anti-terrorist and to stop making their countries safe havens for terrorism. Iraq is merely the first step in this war.

The question becomes, will the US eventually put troops in Iran? I wouldn't be surprised if it happened before Bush's presidency is over (it'll be any day now!).

I don't think we'll have an invasion like we did in Iraq. I think we could see some bombing campaigns and some special forces operations to eliminate key military and political figures. Iran is a lot more stable than Iraq is/was. Iran will not be a repeat of Iraq...military wise and politically.

What's sad is that when our prisoners are tortured or capture in secret prison's we cry foul; yet when we do it -- ts just a disagreement of policy between us and Amnesty International.

You know what I find sad? The fact that American soldiers can get beaten, have their testicles ripped off, have their hearts ripped out of their chest and have their penis' cut off and shoved down their throats and yet there is no public outcry for them. There is no condemning of the terrorists who did this to our fellow Americans. The only bitching I seem to hear about torture is about Americans torturing terrorists or terrorist suspects. Why do people not care about our troops and our citizens (American citizens have been kidnapped in the middle east)? People seem to brush it off because "that's what terrorists do". Yet when America does something on a scale of 1/100 of that people seem to get all bent out of shape. I understand torture isn't right or humane and it probably shouldn't go down but there are somethings that cannot happen. We cannot give an open, fair trial to these terrorist suspects. We just cannot.

You want to know why? There are basically two or three answers to that question. The first answer is the fact that we would lose almost every case. The witnesses that we have or the intelligence we have would not come forward and testify because if they did their families would be kidnapped and murdered. They must remain silent and out of picture. The same thing would happen to the person on trial's family. Another reason why we cannot give them a free and open trial is because it would ruin our operations in the War on Terror. We have operations going down to track and catch these terrorists and we are using information from these suspects to catch them. If we try them and reveal everything we know then those operations would be useless and canceled. It would cost us the capturing of hundreds of terrorist targets if we did that. It would make it virtually impossible for us to track and catch our targets. It would make winning the War on Terror a thousand times tougher.

I do not agree with torture but I do agree with not having a free and open trial. More people would get hurt by doing that then anything else.

[bigh0rt]

You avoided my initial question. With the way the government has treated our troops over the past several years, how can you possibly support both them and the troops? If you support them, you support the way in which they're treating the troops, and vice versa. I have no doubt that the troops, for the most part, are doing their best. I have no doubt as well, that there are assholes over there who go out of their way to cause trouble -- the same way people do in every other facet of life. You say you support the war "because I think the Iraqi people deserve freedom and that Saddam was a horrible person who should not be in power." but Saddam no longer is in power, and isn't it up to the Iraqi people now to do what they will with their freedom? Is the price we're paying for this 'freedom' we keep referring to, worth it? Why are our soldiers losing their lives to 'free' people who want nothing more than to kill them? How would you feel if soldiers invaded America, captured your homeboy Pres. Bush, told us what to do, and all the while, kept saying it was so we could be 'free'???

You paint America like some hand clean saint savior when the fact of the matter is, that couldn't be any further from the truth. Our President throws around buzz words to avoid answering questions when they're brought up to the contrary, and if you think otherwise, you're fooling yourself.

[Riot]

You avoided my initial question.

I don't think I did.

With the way the government has treated our troops over the past several years, how can you possibly support both them and the troops?

Just because I support my government doesn't mean I support it in every way. I think troops should be treated better but in reality...troops get some pretty good benefit plans.

If you support them, you support the way in which they're treating the troops, and vice versa.

That's like saying if you support the troops then you support those retard troops who murdered innocent people. Therefore, you support murder.

I have no doubt that the troops, for the most part, are doing their best.

That's good.

I have no doubt as well, that there are assholes over there who go out of their way to cause trouble -- the same way people do in every other facet of life.

Then how about you start looking at them as the enemy instead of your own damn country? You need to realize that there are people who want you and me dead because of the country we were born in. It's tough to comprend but it's reality.

You say you support the war "because I think the Iraqi people deserve freedom and that Saddam was a horrible person who should not be in power." but Saddam no longer is in power, and isn't it up to the Iraqi people now to do what they will with their freedom?

Saddam is no longer in power. We accomplished that goal. The problem now is stablizing the country so the Iraqi's can support themselves. Right now they have literally no police force, their public facilities are crap and their economy sucks. They need us there to help them get off the ground. And the Iraqi's are in control of their own government...they elected all their officials.

Is the price we're paying for this 'freedom' we keep referring to, worth it?

Of course. Absoutely. I also look at the great words of Abraham Lincoln in regards to that question. ""Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves." It is a great quote because it is true. Everyone human being deserves to be free...denying that right to people is wrong. Unfournately, we cannot free everyone in the world.

Why are our soldiers losing their lives to 'free' people who want nothing more than to kill them?

Most of the Iraqi's do not want to kill the American troops. In fact, most of them welcomed them with open arms. Now a lot of them want us to leave because we did not hold our promise of securing the country. Most of the violence is by foreign fighters from places like Syria and Iran. Once again, we must secure their borders.

How would you feel if soldiers invaded America, captured your homeboy Pres. Bush, told us what to do, and all the while, kept saying it was so we could be 'free'???

I would be pissed off because we are already free. The Iraqi people were not free and they wanted us there. That is the key part of this that you are not understanding. They welcomed us with open arms and they celebrated with our troops in the streets. The issue now is the fact that the country is not secure and the Iraqi's are scared. They believe the violence will stop if our troops leave...that is not the case but that is what they believe. They don't hate us, in fact most of them respect us and love us for what we have done there.


Iraqi kid

You paint America like some hand clean saint savior when the fact of the matter is, that couldn't be any further from the truth. Our President throws around buzz words to avoid answering questions when they're brought up to the contrary, and if you think otherwise, you're fooling yourself.

Really? It couldn't be further from the truth? I really don't know how to respond to that. You think America is on the level of the Nazi's? I don't know how you can sit here and look at all the foreign aid and military aid we have sent to dozens and dozens of countries around the world and say we are the devil. Just because you don't hear about what our troops are doing in Bosnia, Africa, South America and Asia doesn't mean they aren't doing anything. And come on...you act as though President Bush is the only President or politican to avoid a question. Give me a break.

Why don't you go back to your Al-Qaeda training camp and stay there.

[J@3]

Lmao that looks like a dodgy paint shop job, it's hardly compelling evidence.

[Riot]

It's a legit photo...same with this one.



And if you read some of the books I suggested about the War in Iraq from a soldiers view you would know that a lot of the Iraqi's can only say a few things in English. One of those things is "Thank you bush". The Iraqi's would go up to the soldiers and say that to them.

[J@3]

Do they only produce one kind of permanent marker in Iraq or something?

Btw, there is a difference between being able to write and being able to speak a language.

[iKe7in]

Maybe the soldiers told them "thank you Bush" was the translation for "I'm hungry, please don't kill me."

[Riot]

Maybe the soldiers told them "thank you Bush" was the translation for "I'm hungry, please don't kill me."

Why do I even bother with you guys?

[Matt]

Btw, there is a difference between being able to write and being able to speak a language

or understand what your write for that matter.

[iKe7in]

Maybe the soldiers told them "thank you Bush" was the translation for "I'm hungry, please don't kill me."

Why do I even bother with you guys?

[bigh0rt]

Maybe the soldiers told them "thank you Bush" was the translation for "I'm hungry, please don't kill me."

Why do I even bother with you guys?

For the same reason you make short-sighted, unwarranted, silly statements like the following:

Really? It couldn't be further from the truth? I really don't know how to respond to that. You think America is on the level of the Nazi's? I don't know how you can sit here and look at all the foreign aid and military aid we have sent to dozens and dozens of countries around the world and say we are the devil. Just because you don't hear about what our troops are doing in Bosnia, Africa, South America and Asia doesn't mean they aren't doing anything. And come on...you act as though President Bush is the only President or politican to avoid a question. Give me a break.

Why don't you go back to your Al-Qaeda training camp and stay there.

You're showing your age.