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Postby Venom on Sun May 11, 2003 6:38 am

i haven't seen LeBron play so i won't/can't comment on how good he is...but i know that he got 15000 people (or whatever the number is) to watch his games,and that's something that lottery teams need

as for Milicic or Carmelo...i don't know...i would take Milicic cause i saw him play and think he'll be good,but if the Bulls get second pick,it would be pointless for them to draft Milicic because they allready have Chandler & Curry...

so we'll see which team get's to draft second,and then make asumptions :)
Last edited by Venom on Sun May 11, 2003 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby scubilete on Sun May 11, 2003 6:42 am

Yeah, 2 guys shooting over 75% of the whole team shooting would be great, wouldn't you have a Celtics situation there?

But imagine if they took Barkley instead of Bowie.


They had Kiki Vandeweghe in the team, that's together with Mychal Thompson, they didn't need a PF.

Charles and Clyde wouldve been better than Clyde and Sam Bowie. No matter which way you look at it, they got a huge bust.


Yeah I know, I bet it would be great but still It's really great to say that after the huge performances those guys had during their careers. Nobody knew how those guys were going to perform. Bowie didn't perform well, nobody knew that he was going to perform that bad, as well as S. King, as well for those Andrew mentioned, there you have the same Benoit Benjamin or Joe Smith, even Mike Dunleavy Jr. as a good example of the present.

Imagine if the Wiz would have chosen Gasol instead of that HS guy, same mistake the Cavs or Denv are about to make if they get the chance.
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Postby Matthew on Sun May 11, 2003 10:55 am

The same mistake that Minnesota and Pheonix made when drafting high school players?

As for Gasol, in 3 or 4 years we'll see who is better out of Gasol and Kwame.
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Postby Steve04 on Sun May 11, 2003 11:49 am

scubilete wrote:Imagine if the Wiz would have chosen Gasol instead of that HS guy, same mistake the Cavs or Denv are about to make if they get the chance.


You cannot really say that, the Wizards organization(Michael Jordan&Doug Collins) have stunted Kwame's growth(I have been over this before) by not showing enough confidence in him when he has a bad game, wait until Kwame gets atleast 2 more FULL years under him before he is classified as a bust.

And I doubt seriously LaBron James is another HS bust :roll:
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Postby Shep on Sun May 11, 2003 1:38 pm

scubilete wrote:They had Kiki Vandeweghe in the team, that's together with Mychal Thompson, they didn't need a PF


they could've drafted barkley and played thompson at C
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Postby Metaphysical3 on Sun May 11, 2003 2:01 pm

What the hell do you mean if the WIZ would have taken Gasol insted of Kwame???

Yeah im sure Gasol would have led them to a playoff berth just like did with the Grizzlies.

Anyway....The team who passes on LJ will pay.

You can call him all hype, he plays with High Schoolers, whatever whatever.....but the fact remains....every scout, talent evaluator, NBA Coach, GM, recruiter, etc....all claim that out of EVERY player at this same stage Lebron is clearly superior to any and every basketball player. I think ill take their word before i listen to someone from NLSC.
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Postby Wall St. Peon on Sun May 11, 2003 4:36 pm

You can call him all hype, he plays with High Schoolers, whatever whatever.....but the fact remains....every scout, talent evaluator, NBA Coach, GM, recruiter, etc....all claim that out of EVERY player at this same stage Lebron is clearly superior to any and every basketball player. I think ill take their word before i listen to someone from NLSC.


Actually, I've read a few columns (espn/cnnsi) that said that if teams wanted the better overall player, they'd take Darko over James; if teams wanted a solid player who would fill the stands, they'd pick James. Not 'every scout, talent evaluate, etc' is saying James is the the best out of "EVERY" player...you may have been exagerating, but I'm doubting it...

Oh, James is obviously superior playing against high schooler's who won't play at the college level while Carmelo Anthony won a national title in a tough tourney, conference, and beat a Kansas team with two lottery picks...not to mention TJ Ford and Texas...Darko's been playing profesionally since he was 14 (I think)...and that's against guys that the NBA is scouting to bring over...

If you look at the competition that James has and the numbers he's putting up, he's a great player, but he's probably not the best in the draft. He might have the best upside, but I - and others - don't think he's the best player in the draft. Many teams are thinking about the crowd he'd draw as opposed to the win/loss column....I mean, honestly, when was the last time a rookie completely turned a team around? You can't say Amare did, because his team tends to be good with Marbury, Hardaway, Marion and co...
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Postby Metaphysical3 on Sun May 11, 2003 5:59 pm

Actually, I've read a few columns (espn/cnnsi) that said that if teams wanted the better overall player, they'd take Darko over James; if teams wanted a solid player who would fill the stands, they'd pick James. Not 'every scout, talent evaluate, etc' is saying James is the the best out of "EVERY" player...you may have been exagerating, but I'm doubting it...

Oh, James is obviously superior playing against high schooler's who won't play at the college level while Carmelo Anthony won a national title in a tough tourney, conference, and beat a Kansas team with two lottery picks...not to mention TJ Ford and Texas...Darko's been playing profesionally since he was 14 (I think)...and that's against guys that the NBA is scouting to bring over...

If you look at the competition that James has and the numbers he's putting up, he's a great player, but he's probably not the best in the draft. He might have the best upside, but I - and others - don't think he's the best player in the draft. Many teams are thinking about the crowd he'd draw as opposed to the win/loss column....I mean, honestly, when was the last time a rookie completely turned a team around? You can't say Amare did, because his team tends to be good with Marbury, Hardaway, Marion and co...


Lol @ Lebron playing against "high schoolers who won't play at the college level"

Yeah im pretty sure, Luol Deng, Charlie Villanueva, JR Giddens, Shannon Brown, Andrew Lavender, Linas Kleiza, Chris Paul, Mike Jones, Ndubi Ebi, Kendrick Perkins, James Lang, and many more....will never play @ the college level. Those people i named by the way are High School All Americans and certainly future NBA'ers. And Lebron clearly reigns above all of them in skill level and work ethic. But i guess those guys will never play college ball huh?

Also...stop translating college success to the pros. Scouts arent gonna choose lottery picks over who WON in college. If that was the case Juan Dixon would have been a top 5 pick last year.

Also, this 1 WHOLE year of college experience that Melo has means nothing. Go on INDIVIDUAL TALENT. Because if Experience mattered...then Joe Smith would be better than Kevin Garnett.

And you seem to keep doubting Lebron's talent on a higher level for some reason....how soon we forget he dominated an NBA practice...schooled Jerry Stackhouse and toyed with Quentin Richardson @ Jordan Camp...and as a sophomore destroyed Lenny Cooke at ABCD Camp....who at the time was the consensus #1 prospect in the US and a sure lottery pick.

And as far as Darko....stop telling me what you've read of him...until you've seen him play dont tell me how good or how bad he is. So what he's been playing "professionally" since he was 14....how many of the guys he is playing against are NBA prospects?
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Postby Matthew on Sun May 11, 2003 7:35 pm

Great post Metaphysical :D
I mean, honestly, when was the last time a rookie completely turned a team around? You can't say Amare did, because his team tends to be good with Marbury, Hardaway, Marion and co...

No one player is ever totally responsable for "turning a team around". Amare helped turn them around, and I don't think anyone is saying that Lebron will make the Cavs or Nuggets contenders for a playoff position single handedly.

Lebron may struggle early in his NBA career. But alot of great NBA players go through slumps. Even great veteran player can struggle. But I spose if you're an argumentative person you like to go against everyone else :?
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Postby paul_pierce_the_truth on Sun May 11, 2003 7:56 pm

How many European players that started at any age are better than Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett or Tracy McGrady??

LeBron James doesn't make the schedule, he doesn't say who he plays against. The coaches lined them up and he took them down.

Everyone acts like High School Basketball is some remote planet somewhere. You do not think this kid has been on a basketball court with talented players?

The whole statement that I heard Milicic's coaches in Europe say, were more about addressing Milicic's age, not how he compares to LeBron James.
I have heard an interview where Milicic made some reference to LeBron James playing against kids and he himself playing against men. Honestly no offense to Milicic, but he just has no idea what a recruit or prospect like James has done or who he has been on a court with.. He is positioning his own status in the draft, like he should.

Emanuel Ginobilli is a great and confindant player, did he just dominate a tournament last season in Europe? If he did, this tells me the level of the compition over in the league. When Toni Kukoc was in Europe he did the same things, even better than everyone else right? When he arrived in the NBA he was awesome, but not awesome on the level of his two teammates in Chicago, not on the level of a serious All-Star.

Guys like Dirk Nowtizki and Pau Gasol are better than Peja or Kukoc, not saying one Nation there produces better than another, that's not the point.
I am saying if Milicic is more like Gasol than like Ginobilli, then maybe he could be better than LeBron or Carmelo.

The bottom line is this, and this we piss everyone off, but at this time there is no place to learn and develop into an NBA player than in America.
That may sound patriotic or something like that, which is not my intention.
The intent of my statement is this, just because you play in Europe since you were a 14, verses growing up playing American high school basketball, doesn't mean you are better or stronger. The steps that LeBron took to the NBA are the same as Tracy McGrady, Kevin Garnett and Kobe Bryant. Believe me Darius Miles and Kwame Brown are still young and I believe they will do just fine, as will LeBron.
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Postby Andrew on Sun May 11, 2003 7:57 pm

I think LeBron James as a rookie will be similar to Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal, and others throughout history who had impressive rookie seasons. Not only did those players possess great talent and understanding of the game from the time they entered the NBA, they also came along at the right time, and landed in the right place.

Consider some of the current NBA stars whose rookie seasons are substantially below their current statistical marks:

Kevin Garnett - drafting high schoolers was still considered risky, especially with the 5th pick. Played behind established starters at forward (Gugliotta and Laettner).

Kobe Bryant - forced to play behind All-Star shooting guard Eddie Jones - not quite developed enough to play alongside Jones on a regular basis during rookie season.

Rasheed Wallace - not much opportunity to shine with a frontcourt of Chris Webber and Juwan Howard. The "emergence" of Gheorghe Muresan and the presence of other players who received more touches (Calbert Cheaney, Robert Pack) meant a fairly quiet rookie year for Wallace, despite starting 51 of the 65 games he played in.

Now consider the two teams with the best chance of landing LeBron James:

Cleveland - like Chicago in 1984, they have a couple of players who could score, but would be at best the third option anywhere else. For a talented player like James, creating space in the starting five would not require much deliberation.

Denver - also similar to the 1984 Bulls, relying on role players in starring roles. No matter where he plays, small forward or shooting guard, James will have no trouble winning the starting job.

His talent aside, LeBron James is entering the NBA at the right time for him to have a chance to be a good player - something lottery picks don't always get these days.
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Postby Rens on Sun May 11, 2003 9:19 pm

I think everyone is expecting too much out of these players straight away. They're 18 for god's sake, if you expect any of them to put up 20 points a game from the start, I think that's asking too much. They could, the chance is there, but I think there's a bigger chance they need a few years of development.

And as far as Darko....stop telling me what you've read of him...until you've seen him play dont tell me how good or how bad he is. So what he's been playing "professionally" since he was 14....how many of the guys he is playing against are NBA prospects?

This works both ways.. how can you say LeBron is better than Darko when you've never seen Darko play?
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Postby Wall St. Peon on Mon May 12, 2003 3:59 am

Metaphysical wrote:Lol @ Lebron playing against "high schoolers who won't play at the college level"

Yeah im pretty sure, Luol Deng, Charlie Villanueva, JR Giddens, Shannon Brown, Andrew Lavender, Linas Kleiza, Chris Paul, Mike Jones, Ndubi Ebi, Kendrick Perkins, James Lang, and many more....will never play @ the college level. Those people i named by the way are High School All Americans and certainly future NBA'ers.


A couple things...those players are one player or one team or a couple players on one team. Vincent-St. Mary's has at least one college bound player (can't think of his name), so it's not like LeBron James did it on his own. If James is single handedly beating all those guys when they're on the same team, I can see you arguing this; however, they aren't on the same team, and they aren't 'certainly future NBAers.' Look what happened at North Carolina with all of their All-Americans a few years ago...they disappeared. You can't see into the future, and neither can I.

Again, high school is not college and college is not the NBA (and Europe is not the NBA, but it's definately at least the same level as college if not better). Certainly some players are better and dominate college, and then they leave for the NBA - like 'Melo - and some players are good enough to make the jump - like James. However, how many people are saying that LeBron James is the rookie of the year when they've seen two games on ESPN2 of him playing against guys who are 2 years behind him physically? A lot of people (albeit indirectly) How many people are saying that LeBron James is the savior of whatever team drafts him - and immediately the savior? He might be a savior because he fills the stadium, but like many have pointed out, most of the young superstars didn't do anything till their second or third season - and those aren't just the high schoolers.

Metaphysical wrote:And Lebron clearly reigns above all of them in skill level and work ethic. But i guess those guys will never play college ball huh?


Skill level, yes. Work ethic? The only people that know that are James, his former teammates, and his coach (who probably couldn't tell him a damned thing because he simply gets the privelage of coaching James). I highly doubt James has a great work ethic simply because his jumper hasn't improved since his junior year (I saw footage), and it's still eratic and weak (although good form); if he wants to be a quality NBA player, then he has to get his jumper down, and in order to do that, he has to work at it. He may have hit the weight room, but I can hit the weight room and put on 15 pounds of muscle just as easily.

I'm not just going to talk about his jumper, though. His basketball IQ is good, but it's still selfish. Yeah, he likes passing, but it seems that he does it more to fill up the box score than to win; he KNEW his team was going to win because he scored 30 points and another couple guys dropped 15 points because they were tripling him. It doesn't take someone very long to learn to pass out of a double team, let alone a triple team...

James is getting to the NBA on talent alone, style alone. He's already made mistakes with the throwback jerseys and Hummer, what's he going to do in the NBA with a fucked up mom and a posse from home, let alone a dad who was a convict? Look at the trouble players like Damon Stoudamire, who came from a program at Arizona with Lute Olson at the reigns, a great coach, and he's screwed up a lot. Look at Iverson, look at Webber. What's James gonna do when a girl who looks like a supermodel wants a ride in his Hummer and hands him a joint?

The point I'm trying to make is that while James has the talent, the talent pool he was playing against wasn't that great (even though there's a bunch of All-Americans who will be all but forgotten when they go to college, save about six of them). Couple that with the fact that his game hasn't improved much in the last couple years, the fact that he still doesn't know the game very well at all, and the fact that he's been called the next Michael Jordan before he's even played an NBA game is gonna cause problems with a physically but not mentally developed 18 year old kid, and that, in turn, will cause problems with his game. You said Kobe, Garnett, and McGrady made it. Well, Kobe's dad was a basketball player, so he knew how to play the game. Garnett paved the way, and he's just an athletic freak with talent and a want to learn the game; toss in Flip Saunders and Kevin McHale, and you have some good teachers as well. McGrady took three years to come into his own...

James will be the typical rookie his first year, probably in the mold of Caron Butler (as a number 1 or 2 option). He may develop into the special thing that you all want in the future, but I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt simply because he's already made mistakes and he doesn't even have his million dollar contract; I don't know if he'll make it to his fourth season.

Metaphysical wrote:Also...stop translating college success to the pros. Scouts arent gonna choose lottery picks over who WON in college. If that was the case Juan Dixon would have been a top 5 pick last year.


How about a correct comparison? You know, another player who left after their freshman year instead of one who left after his senior year? Juan Dixon is an undersized shooting guard, Carmelo Anthony is an all around player who led his team to a national title as a FRESHMAN. That's quite a bit different than doing it as a senior...

metaphysical wrote:Also, this 1 WHOLE year of college experience that Melo has means nothing. Go on INDIVIDUAL TALENT. Because if Experience mattered...then Joe Smith would be better than Kevin Garnett.


You're exactly what's wrong with the NBA...DRAFT FOR TALENT!!!!! Look at Miles; talented, athletic as hell, yet he sucks. His game has not improved at all, it's gotten worse. Why? Because teams figured out they just need to box out his skinny ass and not let him get backdoor cuts for alley-oops. Make him shoot the outside shot, as he has a horrible shot and might make 30% of them. There's other players that were drafted on talent, but nobody talks about them.

You're saying Carmelo Anthony has no talent? Yeah, that no talent is a lock in the top three of the NBA draft and led his team to a national title as a freshman. Hmmm....that just might be talent. The difference is that Carmelo had to listen to his coach at college and probably learned a great deal about basketball. Oh, and Joe Smith isn't as talented as Kevin Garnett, there are few who are...so again, have reasonable comparisons, say, Joe Smith and Olowokandi...

Metaphysical wrote:And you seem to keep doubting Lebron's talent on a higher level for some reason....how soon we forget he dominated an NBA practice...schooled Jerry Stackhouse and toyed with Quentin Richardson @ Jordan Camp...and as a sophomore destroyed Lenny Cooke at ABCD Camp....who at the time was the consensus #1 prospect in the US and a sure lottery pick.


So what? He beat some guys one on one, guys that aren't that great at defense. Big whoop...and then he beat Lenny Cooke....and Lenny Cooke is where? Exactly...what's LeBron James going to do with Kobe Bryant hounding him, and, when he gets past Kobe, what's he going to do when he runs into Shaq? Probably throw up a bad shot instead of passing it to an open man...if one on one players were good, then every player on the And 1 Mix Tape would be dominating the NBA. Rafer Alston isn't exactly doing that...

Metaphysical wrote:And as far as Darko....stop telling me what you've read of him...until you've seen him play dont tell me how good or how bad he is. So what he's been playing "professionally" since he was 14....how many of the guys he is playing against are NBA prospects?


You said you haven't seen Darko play either, so you can't say that either.

Have you noticed that more foreign players are being drafted? I hope so. Do you know why? Because they've been in a professional system and have a respect for authority and can be coached and they can improve their game. Take Nowitzki, for example. He's improved his game every year because he listens to Don Nelson and retained his coach from Europe to teach him the game. I read some interview or other with his coach from Europe, and the guy is a basketball genius; he knows how to play the game.

That little story was to help show that European players are taught the game and then developed, as opposed to developed and taught the game like in the NBA. Don't believe me? Go find an article by Daryl Dawkins (he tended to be a decent NBA player, don't know if you heard of him....) that appeared in some magazine or other...read that, and he'll be one of the many people that KNOW about basketball who say that Europeans and foreigners in general know how to play basketball; all they have to do is adjust to biased refs and a more physical game.

Darko's been in a program like that for quite some time. He KNOWS how to play and will adjust to the NBA much faster than James will. James has been told he'll dominate, and he might, but that's about as likely as Darrick Martin winning the MVP. Darko's another Nowitzki.

NBA FAN wrote:No one player is ever totally responsable for "turning a team around". Amare helped turn them around, and I don't think anyone is saying that Lebron will make the Cavs or Nuggets contenders for a playoff position single handedly.


In case you haven't noticed, people are saying James is the rookie of the year, the savior, the next whatever, blah blah blah....that's not saying "he will turn my team around," but it's definately implying it. Try some interpretation of things....it might help debating skills...

NBA FAN wrote:Lebron may struggle early in his NBA career. But alot of great NBA players go through slumps. Even great veteran player can struggle. But I spose if you're an argumentative person you like to go against everyone else


May struggle? The odds are clearly in the realm of he WILL struggle. James isn't an NBA player, so he can't go through a slump until he does two things:

1. Plays an NBA Game
2. Has a good season, then has a worst season

Veteran players struggle? Really? I never knew they could go through slumps! Thanks for enlightening me :roll:

I'm an argumentative person, but I only argue about things where I feel I can enlighten some people and have them think a bit more logically...

Pierce wrote:How many European players that started at any age are better than Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett or Tracy McGrady??


How many European players have you seen play besides those in the NBA? Ever seen Arvydas Sabonis play when he had knees? Enough said...

Pierce wrote:LeBron James doesn't make the schedule, he doesn't say who he plays against. The coaches lined them up and he took them down.


That's like saying Doug Collins was the coach of the Wizards the last two years...

Pierce wrote:Everyone acts like High School Basketball is some remote planet somewhere. You do not think this kid has been on a basketball court with talented players?


He's never been on the court against a team with two definately NBA lottery picks. Carmello Anthony has. Milicic has been playing professionaly for years. That should be enough right there....high school is not the same level as college, not the same level as the NBA, and not the same level as European basketball. Simple as that, I don't care how many All-Americans you're playing against.

Pierce wrote:The whole statement that I heard Milicic's coaches in Europe say, were more about addressing Milicic's age, not how he compares to LeBron James.
I have heard an interview where Milicic made some reference to LeBron James playing against kids and he himself playing against men. Honestly no offense to Milicic, but he just has no idea what a recruit or prospect like James has done or who he has been on a court with.. He is positioning his own status in the draft, like he should.


What has James done? He got a Hummer, some jerseys, proved he was above the law governing high school athletics, played against some NBA players who have no defense. Milicic's played professionally and probably doesn't want a Hummer and throwback jerseys....and he IS playing against men as opposed to playing against high school KIDS. So yeah...Milicic was right...

Pierce wrote:Emanuel Ginobilli is a great and confindant player, did he just dominate a tournament last season in Europe?


Well, for one he's from South America...for another he's doing pretty good against the defending champs, no?

Pierce wrote:If he did, this tells me the level of the compition over in the league. When Toni Kukoc was in Europe he did the same things, even better than everyone else right? When he arrived in the NBA he was awesome, but not awesome on the level of his two teammates in Chicago, not on the level of a serious All-Star.


What about Nowitzki, Gasol, and so on? The All-Stars and All-Stars but on a shitty team?

Pierce wrote:The bottom line is this, and this we piss everyone off, but at this time there is no place to learn and develop into an NBA player than in America.


Bullshit. The game isn't taught in America. I've already touched on that. If you can't figure out what I'm talking about, just go look up "What's wrong with the NBA" on google, and you'll see what I'm talking about when I say the game isn't taught. Hell, listen to the announcers, and you can see that the game is not taught in American, therefore it is not the best place for a basketball player to "Learn and develop."

Pierce wrote:The steps that LeBron took to the NBA are the same as Tracy McGrady, Kevin Garnett and Kobe Bryant.


The same steps??? How do you figure? James has been hyped since his sophomore year, a lot of people only heard of Garnett, Bryant, and McGrady just the year before the draft. They weren't hyped like James, and they didn't break rules like James. Completely different step...

Andrew wrote:I think LeBron James as a rookie will be similar to Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal, and others throughout history who had impressive rookie seasons. Not only did those players possess great talent and understanding of the game from the time they entered the NBA, they also came along at the right time, and landed in the right place.


I dunno, the pressure on James to perform will be great, way more than that which was put on Bird, Jordan, Magic, and Shaq. I think James will have a rookie year about like Caron Butler, scoring quite a few points on a crappy team. He'll be a bit more all around, though. I think he'll end up as a bust...

Rens wrote:I think everyone is expecting too much out of these players straight away. They're 18 for god's sake, if you expect any of them to put up 20 points a game from the start, I think that's asking too much. They could, the chance is there, but I think there's a bigger chance they need a few years of development.


Yeah, that's kinda what I'm saying. I'm also saying James isn't the best number one pick, either...
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Postby Venom on Mon May 12, 2003 5:37 am

Metaphysical3 wrote:And as far as Darko....stop telling me what you've read of him...until you've seen him play dont tell me how good or how bad he is. So what he's been playing "professionally" since he was 14....how many of the guys he is playing against are NBA prospects?
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actually 3 more guys from the league will probably get drafted in the first round...some are allready drafted...and some will be in the future.good enough answer?
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Postby Metaphysical3 on Mon May 12, 2003 9:35 am

Enahs Live wrote:
Metaphysical wrote:Lol @ Lebron playing against "high schoolers who won't play at the college level"

Yeah im pretty sure, Luol Deng, Charlie Villanueva, JR Giddens, Shannon Brown, Andrew Lavender, Linas Kleiza, Chris Paul, Mike Jones, Ndubi Ebi, Kendrick Perkins, James Lang, and many more....will never play @ the college level. Those people i named by the way are High School All Americans and certainly future NBA'ers.


A couple things...those players are one player or one team or a couple players on one team. Vincent-St. Mary's has at least one college bound player (can't think of his name), so it's not like LeBron James did it on his own. If James is single handedly beating all those guys when they're on the same team, I can see you arguing this; however, they aren't on the same team, and they aren't 'certainly future NBAers.' Look what happened at North Carolina with all of their All-Americans a few years ago...they disappeared. You can't see into the future, and neither can I.

Again, high school is not college and college is not the NBA (and Europe is not the NBA, but it's definately at least the same level as college if not better). Certainly some players are better and dominate college, and then they leave for the NBA - like 'Melo - and some players are good enough to make the jump - like James. However, how many people are saying that LeBron James is the rookie of the year when they've seen two games on ESPN2 of him playing against guys who are 2 years behind him physically? A lot of people (albeit indirectly) How many people are saying that LeBron James is the savior of whatever team drafts him - and immediately the savior? He might be a savior because he fills the stadium, but like many have pointed out, most of the young superstars didn't do anything till their second or third season - and those aren't just the high schoolers.

Metaphysical wrote:And Lebron clearly reigns above all of them in skill level and work ethic. But i guess those guys will never play college ball huh?


Skill level, yes. Work ethic? The only people that know that are James, his former teammates, and his coach (who probably couldn't tell him a damned thing because he simply gets the privelage of coaching James). I highly doubt James has a great work ethic simply because his jumper hasn't improved since his junior year (I saw footage), and it's still eratic and weak (although good form); if he wants to be a quality NBA player, then he has to get his jumper down, and in order to do that, he has to work at it. He may have hit the weight room, but I can hit the weight room and put on 15 pounds of muscle just as easily.

I'm not just going to talk about his jumper, though. His basketball IQ is good, but it's still selfish. Yeah, he likes passing, but it seems that he does it more to fill up the box score than to win; he KNEW his team was going to win because he scored 30 points and another couple guys dropped 15 points because they were tripling him. It doesn't take someone very long to learn to pass out of a double team, let alone a triple team...

James is getting to the NBA on talent alone, style alone. He's already made mistakes with the throwback jerseys and Hummer, what's he going to do in the NBA with a fucked up mom and a posse from home, let alone a dad who was a convict? Look at the trouble players like Damon Stoudamire, who came from a program at Arizona with Lute Olson at the reigns, a great coach, and he's screwed up a lot. Look at Iverson, look at Webber. What's James gonna do when a girl who looks like a supermodel wants a ride in his Hummer and hands him a joint?

The point I'm trying to make is that while James has the talent, the talent pool he was playing against wasn't that great (even though there's a bunch of All-Americans who will be all but forgotten when they go to college, save about six of them). Couple that with the fact that his game hasn't improved much in the last couple years, the fact that he still doesn't know the game very well at all, and the fact that he's been called the next Michael Jordan before he's even played an NBA game is gonna cause problems with a physically but not mentally developed 18 year old kid, and that, in turn, will cause problems with his game. You said Kobe, Garnett, and McGrady made it. Well, Kobe's dad was a basketball player, so he knew how to play the game. Garnett paved the way, and he's just an athletic freak with talent and a want to learn the game; toss in Flip Saunders and Kevin McHale, and you have some good teachers as well. McGrady took three years to come into his own...

James will be the typical rookie his first year, probably in the mold of Caron Butler (as a number 1 or 2 option). He may develop into the special thing that you all want in the future, but I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt simply because he's already made mistakes and he doesn't even have his million dollar contract; I don't know if he'll make it to his fourth season.

Metaphysical wrote:Also...stop translating college success to the pros. Scouts arent gonna choose lottery picks over who WON in college. If that was the case Juan Dixon would have been a top 5 pick last year.


How about a correct comparison? You know, another player who left after their freshman year instead of one who left after his senior year? Juan Dixon is an undersized shooting guard, Carmelo Anthony is an all around player who led his team to a national title as a FRESHMAN. That's quite a bit different than doing it as a senior...

metaphysical wrote:Also, this 1 WHOLE year of college experience that Melo has means nothing. Go on INDIVIDUAL TALENT. Because if Experience mattered...then Joe Smith would be better than Kevin Garnett.


You're exactly what's wrong with the NBA...DRAFT FOR TALENT!!!!! Look at Miles; talented, athletic as hell, yet he sucks. His game has not improved at all, it's gotten worse. Why? Because teams figured out they just need to box out his skinny ass and not let him get backdoor cuts for alley-oops. Make him shoot the outside shot, as he has a horrible shot and might make 30% of them. There's other players that were drafted on talent, but nobody talks about them.

You're saying Carmelo Anthony has no talent? Yeah, that no talent is a lock in the top three of the NBA draft and led his team to a national title as a freshman. Hmmm....that just might be talent. The difference is that Carmelo had to listen to his coach at college and probably learned a great deal about basketball. Oh, and Joe Smith isn't as talented as Kevin Garnett, there are few who are...so again, have reasonable comparisons, say, Joe Smith and Olowokandi...

Metaphysical wrote:And you seem to keep doubting Lebron's talent on a higher level for some reason....how soon we forget he dominated an NBA practice...schooled Jerry Stackhouse and toyed with Quentin Richardson @ Jordan Camp...and as a sophomore destroyed Lenny Cooke at ABCD Camp....who at the time was the consensus #1 prospect in the US and a sure lottery pick.


So what? He beat some guys one on one, guys that aren't that great at defense. Big whoop...and then he beat Lenny Cooke....and Lenny Cooke is where? Exactly...what's LeBron James going to do with Kobe Bryant hounding him, and, when he gets past Kobe, what's he going to do when he runs into Shaq? Probably throw up a bad shot instead of passing it to an open man...if one on one players were good, then every player on the And 1 Mix Tape would be dominating the NBA. Rafer Alston isn't exactly doing that...

Metaphysical wrote:And as far as Darko....stop telling me what you've read of him...until you've seen him play dont tell me how good or how bad he is. So what he's been playing "professionally" since he was 14....how many of the guys he is playing against are NBA prospects?


You said you haven't seen Darko play either, so you can't say that either.

Have you noticed that more foreign players are being drafted? I hope so. Do you know why? Because they've been in a professional system and have a respect for authority and can be coached and they can improve their game. Take Nowitzki, for example. He's improved his game every year because he listens to Don Nelson and retained his coach from Europe to teach him the game. I read some interview or other with his coach from Europe, and the guy is a basketball genius; he knows how to play the game.

That little story was to help show that European players are taught the game and then developed, as opposed to developed and taught the game like in the NBA. Don't believe me? Go find an article by Daryl Dawkins (he tended to be a decent NBA player, don't know if you heard of him....) that appeared in some magazine or other...read that, and he'll be one of the many people that KNOW about basketball who say that Europeans and foreigners in general know how to play basketball; all they have to do is adjust to biased refs and a more physical game.

Darko's been in a program like that for quite some time. He KNOWS how to play and will adjust to the NBA much faster than James will. James has been told he'll dominate, and he might, but that's about as likely as Darrick Martin winning the MVP. Darko's another Nowitzki.

NBA FAN wrote:No one player is ever totally responsable for "turning a team around". Amare helped turn them around, and I don't think anyone is saying that Lebron will make the Cavs or Nuggets contenders for a playoff position single handedly.


In case you haven't noticed, people are saying James is the rookie of the year, the savior, the next whatever, blah blah blah....that's not saying "he will turn my team around," but it's definately implying it. Try some interpretation of things....it might help debating skills...

NBA FAN wrote:Lebron may struggle early in his NBA career. But alot of great NBA players go through slumps. Even great veteran player can struggle. But I spose if you're an argumentative person you like to go against everyone else


May struggle? The odds are clearly in the realm of he WILL struggle. James isn't an NBA player, so he can't go through a slump until he does two things:

1. Plays an NBA Game
2. Has a good season, then has a worst season

Veteran players struggle? Really? I never knew they could go through slumps! Thanks for enlightening me :roll:

I'm an argumentative person, but I only argue about things where I feel I can enlighten some people and have them think a bit more logically...

Pierce wrote:How many European players that started at any age are better than Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett or Tracy McGrady??


How many European players have you seen play besides those in the NBA? Ever seen Arvydas Sabonis play when he had knees? Enough said...

Pierce wrote:LeBron James doesn't make the schedule, he doesn't say who he plays against. The coaches lined them up and he took them down.


That's like saying Doug Collins was the coach of the Wizards the last two years...

Pierce wrote:Everyone acts like High School Basketball is some remote planet somewhere. You do not think this kid has been on a basketball court with talented players?


He's never been on the court against a team with two definately NBA lottery picks. Carmello Anthony has. Milicic has been playing professionaly for years. That should be enough right there....high school is not the same level as college, not the same level as the NBA, and not the same level as European basketball. Simple as that, I don't care how many All-Americans you're playing against.

Pierce wrote:The whole statement that I heard Milicic's coaches in Europe say, were more about addressing Milicic's age, not how he compares to LeBron James.
I have heard an interview where Milicic made some reference to LeBron James playing against kids and he himself playing against men. Honestly no offense to Milicic, but he just has no idea what a recruit or prospect like James has done or who he has been on a court with.. He is positioning his own status in the draft, like he should.


What has James done? He got a Hummer, some jerseys, proved he was above the law governing high school athletics, played against some NBA players who have no defense. Milicic's played professionally and probably doesn't want a Hummer and throwback jerseys....and he IS playing against men as opposed to playing against high school KIDS. So yeah...Milicic was right...

Pierce wrote:Emanuel Ginobilli is a great and confindant player, did he just dominate a tournament last season in Europe?


Well, for one he's from South America...for another he's doing pretty good against the defending champs, no?

Pierce wrote:If he did, this tells me the level of the compition over in the league. When Toni Kukoc was in Europe he did the same things, even better than everyone else right? When he arrived in the NBA he was awesome, but not awesome on the level of his two teammates in Chicago, not on the level of a serious All-Star.


What about Nowitzki, Gasol, and so on? The All-Stars and All-Stars but on a shitty team?

Pierce wrote:The bottom line is this, and this we piss everyone off, but at this time there is no place to learn and develop into an NBA player than in America.


Bullshit. The game isn't taught in America. I've already touched on that. If you can't figure out what I'm talking about, just go look up "What's wrong with the NBA" on google, and you'll see what I'm talking about when I say the game isn't taught. Hell, listen to the announcers, and you can see that the game is not taught in American, therefore it is not the best place for a basketball player to "Learn and develop."

Pierce wrote:The steps that LeBron took to the NBA are the same as Tracy McGrady, Kevin Garnett and Kobe Bryant.


The same steps??? How do you figure? James has been hyped since his sophomore year, a lot of people only heard of Garnett, Bryant, and McGrady just the year before the draft. They weren't hyped like James, and they didn't break rules like James. Completely different step...

Andrew wrote:I think LeBron James as a rookie will be similar to Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal, and others throughout history who had impressive rookie seasons. Not only did those players possess great talent and understanding of the game from the time they entered the NBA, they also came along at the right time, and landed in the right place.


I dunno, the pressure on James to perform will be great, way more than that which was put on Bird, Jordan, Magic, and Shaq. I think James will have a rookie year about like Caron Butler, scoring quite a few points on a crappy team. He'll be a bit more all around, though. I think he'll end up as a bust...

Rens wrote:I think everyone is expecting too much out of these players straight away. They're 18 for god's sake, if you expect any of them to put up 20 points a game from the start, I think that's asking too much. They could, the chance is there, but I think there's a bigger chance they need a few years of development.


Yeah, that's kinda what I'm saying. I'm also saying James isn't the best number one pick, either...


Dude we played on the same AAU team at 14....and the dude is obsessed with Basketball. Please dont question his work ethic. He is/was the first guy in the gym and the last one out. After practice when guys are leaving to go home....he'll stay in the gym an extra hour to get some shots up. Basketball is on mind 24/7.

And no one EVER said Carmello doesnt have talent. But he clearly doesnt posess Lebrons ability. He isnt as strong, doesnt have the court vision, not as athletic, not as quick, and doesnt have an array of moves like Lebron. The only area he has LJ beat is in an consistent jumper...and even then Lebron has more range.

And its a known got damn fact you draft for talent. Because the fool that does otherwise is taking a gamble knowing that if you pass on a certain guy he may come back to haunt your franchise. You sound like the same type of person that would have dismissed an Al Harrington or a Jermaine O Neal because they didnt show IMMEDIATE impact.

And you keep throwing in these High Expectations for the guy in his first year. Its a known fact that he will have to work on his game....but Melo will too. And they all are going to lottery teams and you're making it seem like Melo and Darko are going to help their teams THAT much better than Lebron will help his. Also Lebron isnt filling up the stat sheets by TRYING to distribute the ball. If you've seen him play more than twice like i have...you'd know that the guy loves to dish the ball. He's been the same way since he was younger. You mean to tell me he cared about filling up the stat sheets back then too in recreational ball?

And as far as Darko...you're right i havent seen him play either...but im not the one calling him the next Dirk because you read a column that said he was. I read an interview where HE himself claims he plays nothing like DIRK.


I mean im pretty much done arguing with you on this topic...all i can say is...ILL take an NBA GM's word over yours ANYDAY...and right now...they are all saying he is the best out there. You can claim he'll be a bust all you want...but please don't hop on the bandwagon a few years down the line.
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Postby Wall St. Peon on Mon May 12, 2003 11:16 am

Metaphysical wrote:Dude we played on the same AAU team at 14....and the dude is obsessed with Basketball. Please dont question his work ethic. He is/was the first guy in the gym and the last one out. After practice when guys are leaving to go home....he'll stay in the gym an extra hour to get some shots up. Basketball is on mind 24/7.


How was I supposed to know that? I wasn't on his AAU team, I don't know him personally, but just going by the fact that he's been a superstar since he was 15, odds are he doesn't have a good work ethic because everything's handed to him...

metaphysical wrote:And no one EVER said Carmello doesnt have talent. But he clearly doesnt posess Lebrons ability. He isnt as strong, doesnt have the court vision, not as athletic, not as quick, and doesnt have an array of moves like Lebron. The only area he has LJ beat is in an consistent jumper...and even then Lebron has more range.


Carmelo Anthony has three point range and he's more consistant than James....just because you can shoot it from 30 feet doesn't mean you have more range...you have to make it consistantly, and LJ isn't consistant...

The stuff you mention have to do with position; James' place is the backcourt, Anthony's in the frontcourt. James is big for a point or shooting guard, average for a small forward. More athletic than the average small forward, about the same for a guard, and not quite as quick as the typical NBA point guard. Carmelo's a small forward/power forward, and his athletic ability and skills fit that position. James is more all around, and like I said a few times, at best James will have a rookie year like Caron Butler, with a few more assists and probably a lower shooting percentage.

metaphysical wrote:And its a known got damn fact you draft for talent. Because the fool that does otherwise is taking a gamble knowing that if you pass on a certain guy he may come back to haunt your franchise. You sound like the same type of person that would have dismissed an Al Harrington or a Jermaine O Neal because they didnt show IMMEDIATE impact.


I wouldn't have dismissed Al Harrington or O'Neal as a draft pick if I were the Pacers or Blazers GMS; the Blazers had depth at power forward, the Pacers depth at SG/SF/PF...they had plenty of time to develop. They were projects. James and Anthony and Milicic are all projects, but I think James would be the one with the best upside but the most downside (because of possible off court problems and high expectations). I think about the players impact ON the court and OFF the court as well, plus their attitudes. I don't know James personally, nor have I had private workouts like GMS. However, they're all drooling over his vertical, his bench, and what not, plus the fact that he's bringing in 15,000 people to see him dunk over a guy 5 inches shorter than him.

No rookies really make an immediate impact, but many expect LeBron James to do so. A team would love the publicity, but if you fill an NBA arena with people just to see a 19 year old kid play, and those fans are expecting him to win games and make a significant impact, that's a ton of pressure on a young mind.

Metaphysical wrote:And you keep throwing in these High Expectations for the guy in his first year. Its a known fact that he will have to work on his game....but Melo will too. And they all are going to lottery teams and you're making it seem like Melo and Darko are going to help their teams THAT much better than Lebron will help his. Also Lebron isnt filling up the stat sheets by TRYING to distribute the ball. If you've seen him play more than twice like i have...you'd know that the guy loves to dish the ball. He's been the same way since he was younger. You mean to tell me he cared about filling up the stat sheets back then too in recreational ball?


You don't think LeBron James will have high expectations?? They've been talking about him since he was like 15! They've already cleared a place for him in the Hall of Fame, rookie of the year, mvp....everything! He has huge expectations from everyone. Think about this...Kwame Brown had huge expectations, and that's Kwame Brown. A ton of people hadn't heard of him until he played well at camps. This is LeBron James....he's known world wide. If he doesn't perform, what'll happen?

I never said that Melo and Darko wouldn't have to develop, I just said the transition would be much easier and that they know more about the game...

As for the dishing of the ball, I comment on what I've seen. From what I've seen of his gameplay, he just does it to improve his draft stock, and from comments like "I'd win the national title if I went to college," it clearly shows he's arrogant. He already knows he's above the law because of the whole one game suspension for the jersey thing.

Metaphysical wrote:And as far as Darko...you're right i havent seen him play either...but im not the one calling him the next Dirk because you read a column that said he was. I read an interview where HE himself claims he plays nothing like DIRK.


How about you quote me, buddy? Where'd I sayd "Darko Milicic is the next Dirk Nowitzki?" You won't find it because I never said it...I used Dirk Nowitzki as an example of the way basketball is in Europe...as in the coaching, the learning, and so on. Not as a comparison....

Metaphysical wrote:I mean im pretty much done arguing with you on this topic...all i can say is...ILL take an NBA GM's word over yours ANYDAY...and right now...they are all saying he is the best out there. You can claim he'll be a bust all you want...but please don't hop on the bandwagon a few years down the line.


Did you speak to each and every GM personally? In those scouting reports they only have quotes from a few of the GMs...

As for claiming he's a bust, I never said 'he will be a bust,' I said he has a much greater chance of being a bust than everyone else we're talkinga bout; why? Because of expectations and because of off court stuff....odds are, stuff'll happen off the court for James. Two occurances in what, three months while he was in high school? Just wait till he gets money....

Don't generalize or misquote things I say...
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Postby scubilete on Mon May 12, 2003 11:17 am

Metaphysical wrote:I mean im pretty much done arguing with you on this topic


Geez, I'm late :lol:

Metaphysical wrote:I think ill take their word before i listen to someone from NLSC.


You are already taking our words, :lol:

Metaphysical wrote:But i guess those guys will never play college ball huh?


They will, that's where they will develop their game, they don't have game in HS.

NBA Fan on Metaphysical wrote:But I spose if you're an argumentative person you like to go against everyone else


:lol: (Y)

Metaphysical wrote:The only area he has LJ beat is in an consistent jumper


Great, don't you need to be consistent to be better than anyone else?

Metaphysical wrote:ILL take an NBA GM's word over yours ANYDAY.


That's all we are saying, whatever the NBA GM's & reporters have said, Carmelo is better, you are just taking LJ's mom word over ours I guess.

Metaphysical wrote:but please don't hop on the bandwagon a few years down the line.


Wouldn't be better if you say next year?, if he's the better out there he has to show it next year not in 5 or 7.

NBA Fan wrote:As for Gasol, in 3 or 4 years we'll see who is better out of Gasol and Kwame.


That's too much waiting to show you were the best player out of your draft, MJ was the better out of his draft, he showed that the very first year.

Metaphysical wrote:Anyway....The team who passes on LJ will pay.


Yeah I know, it would take over 5 to 7 years to start paying for that, at that time he will have already been a free agent.

Metaphysical wrote:Yeah im sure Gasol would have led them to a playoff berth just like did with the Grizzlies.


Well, the Griz didn't have Jordan & Stackhouse, players that for sure were needed to make the playoffs.

The best player out of any draft is the one who shows he's the best starting on his rookie year. eg: Amare, you might argue cause was a close race but he got the award, that means he was the best out of his draft, Ming might become even better but the best of that draft was Amare. Kobe/T-Mac/KG were not the best out of their draft but they are the best players now, that's something you have to understand that it's been saying here. LeBron might become a great player with the time but that's just everyone's hope.
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Postby Metaphysical3 on Mon May 12, 2003 3:36 pm

Dude you clearly said "I think he'll end up as a bust... "

Show me where an NBA GM said he thinks Carmello is better....

Ive got tons of ESPN Insiders on my HARD DRIVE with quotes from about 10-15 GMs that prove otherwise.


And what do you mean all you need is a consistant jumper to be better than someone....that makes no sense.....stop talking about these kids as if they will be VETS next year. You're making it seem like that whatever they do next year....thats how they will be forever. PEOPLE WORK ON THEIR GAMES. Who's to say Lebron wont develop a better J than Melo....and who is to say he is. But at least throw solid facts in there before you ASSUME what the guy will become.
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Postby paul_pierce_the_truth on Tue May 13, 2003 2:42 am

All those years.....

Darko Milicic is 17 years old, he has played almost two years of A League European basketball. He averaged 5.4 points and 3.1 rebounds and had like 7 assists in 20 games as a 16 year old.

I can't find his current stats, but they must be amazing, but I doubt it.

Okay Carmelo Anthony lead his team to a NCAA Title, that is pretty good, but many players have done so and it really has no worth towards their NBA careers.

I really like Carmelo and believe that scouts believe in Milicic, but LeBron James can not be faulted for playing the schedule he was given. Again I tell you Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady played the same type of schedule and the same type of players, it just doesn't mean anything.

I just read several articles and interviews with Milicic, he believes he is comparable to Kevin Garnett (which no one is) but I understand what he means... But he says he is a better passer than Garnett (who averaged more than 5 assists per game and Milicic had 7 assists in 20 games), this is biting off more than he can chew. He points out time and again about his compition vs. the compitiion of James, again what does he know about any of the leagues and camps that James has been to. Michael Jordan calls LeBron James on the telephone, Does Divac or Peja even know this guy? I really believe if he were the greatest Yugoslavian player of all time at the age of 17, he'd be talking to Peja on the phone at some point, and the greatest 17 year old of all-time is what they call James.

I really think when they both get into the NBA, that I will like and cheer for Darko more, I like his left hand, I like his class and work ethic, but LeBron James is going to be better. I am not a fan of Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett but I know how good they and I understand that they do more than Paul Pierce, but I like Pierce more. I will like Darko very much, but I also believe James is better.

All those years.........

At 17 Darko Milicic hasn't been doing anything for a long time.

At 18 or 19 whatever Carmelo Anthony is, he didn't get a masters degree in Basketball in one good year at Syracuse.

Some guys play 15 years in the NBA and could never do what LeBron will do in just a few weeks in the NBA.

It's about talent first and foremost, pointing to compition is a way of pointing away from yourself. Look at James and look at Milicic, look at history, look at what you want, but don't hold it against LeBron James because he played High School Basketball, everyone plays High School basketball, some play okay and some are considered the best to every play. A scout said that James is the best high school basketball player since Lew Alcindor at Power in New York in 1965 (K. Abdul-Jabbar).
He is the best at what he does, he can't be discredited for this. I mean give me a break already.

All those years......

Seventeen years old and so seasoned........ C'mon already, who's this great compition anyway, I have so heard so much about it.

Back to the guy who avoided everything I said about Ginobilli....
I didn't say he was from Europe, I said he dominated it.
And if he did, there really isn't that much of a league there.
Sorry but the guy is just a regular player in the NBA, talented and cool under pressure, but he's no dominating figure.
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Postby Rens on Tue May 13, 2003 3:00 am

paul_pierce_the_truth wrote:All those years.....

Darko Milicic is 17 years old, he has played almost two years of A League European basketball. He averaged 5.4 points and 3.1 rebounds and had like 7 assists in 20 games as a 16 year old.

I can't find his current stats, but they must be amazing, but I doubt it.

Okay Carmelo Anthony lead his team to a NCAA Title, that is pretty good, but many players have done so and it really has no worth towards their NBA careers.

I really hope these aren't arguments to show why you think LeBron is better...
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Postby paul_pierce_the_truth on Tue May 13, 2003 6:24 am

Does it say LeBron James is better?

I am trying to say that the arguments that Milicic is seasoned and LeBron is so tender and a simple schoolboy, is just nuts.

All those years........
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Postby paul_pierce_the_truth on Tue May 13, 2003 6:35 am

Here I will just say it..........

LeBron James is better.

I can't wait to hear the stories of the workouts.

It may never happen, and disregard size, position...

I believe if Darko Milicic were to step onto a basketball court with LeBron James one-on-one, he would be eaten alive!

Again I think I probably would root for Milicic, don't forget this, but stuffed into a paper bag for lunch, maybe just a light snack for James.

Did anyone see the McDonald's All-American Game?

He killed them all.

Milicic is 17 and that league is full of men, 95% of which will not play in the NBA. Will Not. Probably around 50% of the McDonald's All-Americans will. Not because they are in the USA, but because the they are the players selected from MILLLIONS of High School players. MILLIONS.

Lunch.... Light Snack...

All those years ballin' in Europe, wow!!

:wink:
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Postby Matthew on Tue May 13, 2003 9:46 am

What the fuck? Did Atlanta really win the lottery or was I dreaming? Did the Knicks really steal the 3rd pick? :lol:
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Postby Matthew on Tue May 13, 2003 10:22 am

Whoops, I nearly missed these :cool:
In case you haven't noticed, people are saying James is the rookie of the year, the savior, the next whatever, blah blah blah....that's not saying "he will turn my team around," but it's definately implying it. Try some interpretation of things....it might help debating skills...

So you were assuming thats what they meant? Tsk tsk, try not to jump to conculsions, it may help your debating skills (y). And just becuase a player wins Rookie of the year doesn't mean he turned his team around. Look at Gasol, he was the best rookie, and he deservidly so won R.O.Y honours but his Grizzlies were still a bad team.
May struggle? The odds are clearly in the realm of he WILL struggle. James isn't an NBA player, so he can't go through a slump until he does two things:

1. Plays an NBA Game
2. Has a good season, then has a worst season


this whole statement is just playing with words so i may as well do likewise. A slump doesn't have to be a season long, it can be 5 or so games. So criteria B is void.
Veteran players struggle? Really? I never knew they could go through slumps! Thanks for enlightening me

You're welcome.
I'm an argumentative person

Correct! (y)

but I only argue about things where I feel I can enlighten some people and have them think a bit more logically...

lol, enlighten? Oh yeah, I forgot, you know more than everyone else :lol:
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Matthew
 
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Postby Venom on Tue May 13, 2003 10:36 am

the whole point with the "playing with men" argument isn't that they are better prospects then some high schoolers...the point is they are stronger...especially if you're playing center

LeBron is (what i hear) 6'6" and he's guarded by someone who's probably 5'10"...so it's not really that hard to dominate him,is it? but if you're 17 and playing aginst someone who's your size and bigger,well you can't dominate him that easily

anyway,I'm not saying anything about who should be no.1 because I haven't seen LeBron play,and I'm not even trying to prove he's no good ;)
Venom
 
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