Metaphysical wrote:Lol @ Lebron playing against "high schoolers who won't play at the college level"
Yeah im pretty sure, Luol Deng, Charlie Villanueva, JR Giddens, Shannon Brown, Andrew Lavender, Linas Kleiza, Chris Paul, Mike Jones, Ndubi Ebi, Kendrick Perkins, James Lang, and many more....will never play @ the college level. Those people i named by the way are High School All Americans and certainly future NBA'ers.
A couple things...those players are one player or one team or a couple players on one team. Vincent-St. Mary's has at least one college bound player (can't think of his name), so it's not like LeBron James did it on his own. If James is single handedly beating all those guys when they're on the same team, I can see you arguing this; however, they aren't on the same team, and they aren't 'certainly future NBAers.' Look what happened at North Carolina with all of their All-Americans a few years ago...they disappeared. You can't see into the future, and neither can I.
Again, high school is not college and college is not the NBA (and Europe is not the NBA, but it's definately at least the same level as college if not better). Certainly some players are better and dominate college, and then they leave for the NBA - like 'Melo - and some players are good enough to make the jump - like James. However, how many people are saying that LeBron James is the rookie of the year when they've seen two games on ESPN2 of him playing against guys who are 2 years behind him physically? A lot of people (albeit indirectly) How many people are saying that LeBron James is the savior of whatever team drafts him - and immediately the savior? He might be a savior because he fills the stadium, but like many have pointed out, most of the young superstars didn't do anything till their second or third season - and those aren't just the high schoolers.
Metaphysical wrote:And Lebron clearly reigns above all of them in skill level and work ethic. But i guess those guys will never play college ball huh?
Skill level, yes. Work ethic? The only people that know that are James, his former teammates, and his coach (who probably couldn't tell him a damned thing because he simply gets the privelage of coaching James). I highly doubt James has a great work ethic simply because his jumper hasn't improved since his junior year (I saw footage), and it's still eratic and weak (although good form); if he wants to be a quality NBA player, then he has to get his jumper down, and in order to do that, he has to work at it. He may have hit the weight room, but I can hit the weight room and put on 15 pounds of muscle just as easily.
I'm not just going to talk about his jumper, though. His basketball IQ is good, but it's still selfish. Yeah, he likes passing, but it seems that he does it more to fill up the box score than to win; he KNEW his team was going to win because he scored 30 points and another couple guys dropped 15 points because they were tripling him. It doesn't take someone very long to learn to pass out of a double team, let alone a triple team...
James is getting to the NBA on talent alone, style alone. He's already made mistakes with the throwback jerseys and Hummer, what's he going to do in the NBA with a fucked up mom and a posse from home, let alone a dad who was a convict? Look at the trouble players like Damon Stoudamire, who came from a program at Arizona with Lute Olson at the reigns, a great coach, and he's screwed up a lot. Look at Iverson, look at Webber. What's James gonna do when a girl who looks like a supermodel wants a ride in his Hummer and hands him a joint?
The point I'm trying to make is that while James has the talent, the talent pool he was playing against wasn't that great (even though there's a bunch of All-Americans who will be all but forgotten when they go to college, save about six of them). Couple that with the fact that his game hasn't improved much in the last couple years, the fact that he still doesn't know the game very well at all, and the fact that he's been called the next Michael Jordan before he's even played an NBA game is gonna cause problems with a physically but not mentally developed 18 year old kid, and that, in turn, will cause problems with his game. You said Kobe, Garnett, and McGrady made it. Well, Kobe's dad was a basketball player, so he knew how to play the game. Garnett paved the way, and he's just an athletic freak with talent and a want to learn the game; toss in Flip Saunders and Kevin McHale, and you have some good teachers as well. McGrady took three years to come into his own...
James will be the typical rookie his first year, probably in the mold of Caron Butler (as a number 1 or 2 option). He may develop into the special thing that you all want in the future, but I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt simply because he's already made mistakes and he doesn't even have his million dollar contract; I don't know if he'll make it to his fourth season.
Metaphysical wrote:Also...stop translating college success to the pros. Scouts arent gonna choose lottery picks over who WON in college. If that was the case Juan Dixon would have been a top 5 pick last year.
How about a correct comparison? You know, another player who left after their freshman year instead of one who left after his senior year? Juan Dixon is an undersized shooting guard, Carmelo Anthony is an all around player who led his team to a national title as a FRESHMAN. That's quite a bit different than doing it as a senior...
metaphysical wrote:Also, this 1 WHOLE year of college experience that Melo has means nothing. Go on INDIVIDUAL TALENT. Because if Experience mattered...then Joe Smith would be better than Kevin Garnett.
You're exactly what's wrong with the NBA...DRAFT FOR TALENT!!!!! Look at Miles; talented, athletic as hell, yet he sucks. His game has not improved at all, it's gotten worse. Why? Because teams figured out they just need to box out his skinny ass and not let him get backdoor cuts for alley-oops. Make him shoot the outside shot, as he has a horrible shot and might make 30% of them. There's other players that were drafted on talent, but nobody talks about them.
You're saying Carmelo Anthony has no talent? Yeah, that no talent is a lock in the top three of the NBA draft and led his team to a national title as a freshman. Hmmm....that just might be talent. The difference is that Carmelo had to listen to his coach at college and probably learned a great deal about basketball. Oh, and Joe Smith isn't as talented as Kevin Garnett, there are few who are...so again, have reasonable comparisons, say, Joe Smith and Olowokandi...
Metaphysical wrote:And you seem to keep doubting Lebron's talent on a higher level for some reason....how soon we forget he dominated an NBA practice...schooled Jerry Stackhouse and toyed with Quentin Richardson @ Jordan Camp...and as a sophomore destroyed Lenny Cooke at ABCD Camp....who at the time was the consensus #1 prospect in the US and a sure lottery pick.
So what? He beat some guys one on one, guys that aren't that great at defense. Big whoop...and then he beat Lenny Cooke....and Lenny Cooke is where? Exactly...what's LeBron James going to do with Kobe Bryant hounding him, and, when he gets past Kobe, what's he going to do when he runs into Shaq? Probably throw up a bad shot instead of passing it to an open man...if one on one players were good, then every player on the And 1 Mix Tape would be dominating the NBA. Rafer Alston isn't exactly doing that...
Metaphysical wrote:And as far as Darko....stop telling me what you've read of him...until you've seen him play dont tell me how good or how bad he is. So what he's been playing "professionally" since he was 14....how many of the guys he is playing against are NBA prospects?
You said you haven't seen Darko play either, so you can't say that either.
Have you noticed that more foreign players are being drafted? I hope so. Do you know why? Because they've been in a professional system and have a respect for authority and can be coached and they can improve their game. Take Nowitzki, for example. He's improved his game every year because he listens to Don Nelson and retained his coach from Europe to teach him the game. I read some interview or other with his coach from Europe, and the guy is a basketball genius; he knows how to play the game.
That little story was to help show that European players are taught the game and then developed, as opposed to developed and taught the game like in the NBA. Don't believe me? Go find an article by Daryl Dawkins (he tended to be a decent NBA player, don't know if you heard of him....) that appeared in some magazine or other...read that, and he'll be one of the many people that KNOW about basketball who say that Europeans and foreigners in general know how to play basketball; all they have to do is adjust to biased refs and a more physical game.
Darko's been in a program like that for quite some time. He KNOWS how to play and will adjust to the NBA much faster than James will. James has been told he'll dominate, and he might, but that's about as likely as Darrick Martin winning the MVP. Darko's another Nowitzki.
NBA FAN wrote:No one player is ever totally responsable for "turning a team around". Amare helped turn them around, and I don't think anyone is saying that Lebron will make the Cavs or Nuggets contenders for a playoff position single handedly.
In case you haven't noticed, people are saying James is the rookie of the year, the savior, the next whatever, blah blah blah....that's not saying "he will turn my team around," but it's definately implying it. Try some interpretation of things....it might help debating skills...
NBA FAN wrote:Lebron may struggle early in his NBA career. But alot of great NBA players go through slumps. Even great veteran player can struggle. But I spose if you're an argumentative person you like to go against everyone else
May struggle? The odds are clearly in the realm of he WILL struggle. James isn't an NBA player, so he can't go through a slump until he does two things:
1. Plays an NBA Game
2. Has a good season, then has a worst season
Veteran players struggle? Really? I never knew they could go through slumps! Thanks for enlightening me

I'm an argumentative person, but I only argue about things where I feel I can enlighten some people and have them think a bit more logically...
Pierce wrote:How many European players that started at any age are better than Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett or Tracy McGrady??
How many European players have you seen play besides those in the NBA? Ever seen Arvydas Sabonis play when he had knees? Enough said...
Pierce wrote:LeBron James doesn't make the schedule, he doesn't say who he plays against. The coaches lined them up and he took them down.
That's like saying Doug Collins was the coach of the Wizards the last two years...
Pierce wrote:Everyone acts like High School Basketball is some remote planet somewhere. You do not think this kid has been on a basketball court with talented players?
He's never been on the court against a team with two definately NBA lottery picks. Carmello Anthony has. Milicic has been playing professionaly for years. That should be enough right there....high school is not the same level as college, not the same level as the NBA, and not the same level as European basketball. Simple as that, I don't care how many All-Americans you're playing against.
Pierce wrote:The whole statement that I heard Milicic's coaches in Europe say, were more about addressing Milicic's age, not how he compares to LeBron James.
I have heard an interview where Milicic made some reference to LeBron James playing against kids and he himself playing against men. Honestly no offense to Milicic, but he just has no idea what a recruit or prospect like James has done or who he has been on a court with.. He is positioning his own status in the draft, like he should.
What has James done? He got a Hummer, some jerseys, proved he was above the law governing high school athletics, played against some NBA players who have no defense. Milicic's played professionally and probably doesn't want a Hummer and throwback jerseys....and he IS playing against men as opposed to playing against high school KIDS. So yeah...Milicic was right...
Pierce wrote:Emanuel Ginobilli is a great and confindant player, did he just dominate a tournament last season in Europe?
Well, for one he's from South America...for another he's doing pretty good against the defending champs, no?
Pierce wrote:If he did, this tells me the level of the compition over in the league. When Toni Kukoc was in Europe he did the same things, even better than everyone else right? When he arrived in the NBA he was awesome, but not awesome on the level of his two teammates in Chicago, not on the level of a serious All-Star.
What about Nowitzki, Gasol, and so on? The All-Stars and All-Stars but on a shitty team?
Pierce wrote:The bottom line is this, and this we piss everyone off, but at this time there is no place to learn and develop into an NBA player than in America.
Bullshit. The game isn't taught in America. I've already touched on that. If you can't figure out what I'm talking about, just go look up "What's wrong with the NBA" on google, and you'll see what I'm talking about when I say the game isn't taught. Hell, listen to the announcers, and you can see that the game is not taught in American, therefore it is not the best place for a basketball player to "Learn and develop."
Pierce wrote:The steps that LeBron took to the NBA are the same as Tracy McGrady, Kevin Garnett and Kobe Bryant.
The same steps??? How do you figure? James has been hyped since his sophomore year, a lot of people only heard of Garnett, Bryant, and McGrady just the year before the draft. They weren't hyped like James, and they didn't break rules like James. Completely different step...
Andrew wrote:I think LeBron James as a rookie will be similar to Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal, and others throughout history who had impressive rookie seasons. Not only did those players possess great talent and understanding of the game from the time they entered the NBA, they also came along at the right time, and landed in the right place.
I dunno, the pressure on James to perform will be great, way more than that which was put on Bird, Jordan, Magic, and Shaq. I think James will have a rookie year about like Caron Butler, scoring quite a few points on a crappy team. He'll be a bit more all around, though. I think he'll end up as a bust...
Rens wrote:I think everyone is expecting too much out of these players straight away. They're 18 for god's sake, if you expect any of them to put up 20 points a game from the start, I think that's asking too much. They could, the chance is there, but I think there's a bigger chance they need a few years of development.
Yeah, that's kinda what I'm saying. I'm also saying James isn't the best number one pick, either...