Jordan or Chamberlin

[Fenix]

You think Wilt would be able to dominate against Duncan, Shaq, Amare, Yao, Ben Wallace? Remember, Wilt had his problems against the likes of Russel (6'9), Willis Reed (6'10). When matched up against Kareem, he was virtually helpless. Expect the same against Shaq, Duncan and even a motivated KG and Jermaine O'neal.

You think Shaq of today wouldn't had problems with the young version of Kareem? And you think there are a lot of players today who could play effortlessly against Knicks's team of the late 60' (which were the best D teams in the league) or that Russel with his height (6'9 without shoes), athleticism and instincts wouldn't have been a dominant defensive player today, despite the fact he would probably have to move to the PF position?

As for the inflated stats, remember the average for an nba team was 108 shots per game. 108! Thats about 30 more than a nba team averages these days. When a team has that many more shots, there are naturally more possesions. More possesions means more rebounds, more opportunities to score, get assists, get blocks... the same goes for oscar. If lebron gets a triple double for a season, it means that much more becuase of the amount of possesions a nba team has.

I agree. But my point was that he dominated the boards despite the fact that the average height went south. Plus, if you lower the number of possesions, you wouldn't deflate only Wilt's numbers, but also ther stats of every other player in the league -> he would still keep his position on the top of the statistics categories.

As I said before, Jordan is a classic cross of Magic and Kobe. He can take over with his scoring when needed, and also he can take over with his passing. Remember, Jordan averaged 8 apg when he played point guard for the bulls, so how can you say he wasnt versatile?

Jordan's offensive game was either passing or scoring. He rarely did both in the same game. And as far as his assist numbers goes - its the same thing as it is with Kobe - he just dominated the ball that much.

Wilt was like kg when you think about it. Posts massive numbers, sparingly wins in the playoffs, but gets mentioned in the same breathe as duncan when he really hasnt earned it. Ditto for Tmac.

I agree to some degree. But then again: the best of KG is better than the best of Duncan. It's the same thing with Wilt and MJ.

[J@3]

IMHO, if wilt wasnt dead, we wouldnt even have this discussion. Before he died, people would rank magic and russell ahead of him all the time. Now, maybe becuase he died, people are quick to put him on a level he really doesnt deserve.

I agree, it happens with every celebrity to be honest. Sports stars, musicians, actors... not to discredit anything he achieved but it just seems to happen. Len Bias for instance.

[Matthew]

You think Shaq of today wouldn't had problems with the young version of Kareem? And you think there are a lot of players today who could play effortlessly against Knicks's team of the late 60' (which were the best D teams in the league) or that Russel with his height (6'9 without shoes), athleticism and instincts wouldn't have been a dominant defensive player today, despite the fact he would probably have to move to the PF position?

I think Shaq would absolutely manhandle Willis Reed. There's only ever been one swarming defense totally took shaq out of his game, and that was Portland's in 2000 (when they won game 5 and 6, and dominated for 3 quarters in game 7 before the lakers finally decided to start shooting their wide open shots). Duncan's last 2 championships went through New Jersey and Detroit. I rate the Nets (from 2003) and the current Pistons teams ahead of that 70's Knicks team in terms of athleticism. So if Duncan could do that against those teams, I have no doubt in my mind he could do the same to Willis Reed and co.

Kareem vs Shaq would be great, almost even becuase they wouldnt be able to stop each other. But I guarantee you Shaq wouldnt ask for help when guarding Kareem. Wilt on the other hand said he needed it.

I agree. But my point was that he dominated the boards despite the fact that the average height went south. Plus, if you lower the number of possesions, you wouldn't deflate only Wilt's numbers, but also ther stats of every other player in the league -> he would still keep his position on the top of the statistics categories.

Oh I'm not saying he wouldn't have led the league those years. I'm saying he wouldn't have averaged the same numbers, 50 ppg, 25 rpg etc. Oscar wouldn't have had his triple double year either.

Jordan's offensive game was either passing or scoring. He rarely did both in the same game. And as far as his assist numbers goes - its the same thing as it is with Kobe - he just dominated the ball that much.

Thats one major misconception about mj's game. He didnt dominate the ball that much during the 3 peat. Pippen helped out with intiating the offense. Horace Grant got alot of touches in on the low blocks, and BJ and Pax brought the ball up alot. Jordan had the most touches obviously, but it's not like how kobe gets the rock now.

I agree to some degree. But then again: the best of KG is better than the best of Duncan. It's the same thing with Wilt and MJ.

You cant say that with and expect to be taken seriously. The best of duncan ended the Lakers 3 peat and nearly got a quadrouble double. The best of KG got them 2 wins against a Lakers team that was about to implode against the Pistons.
The Best of wilt was getting a 100 point game in a meaningless regular season game against a Knick team that won 29 games that season. The best of MJ was averaging 43 ppg in the finals and literally taking the bulls on his back in the final 4 games to get the ring. You tell me which were better at their best.

[Fenix]

Kareem vs Shaq would be great, almost even becuase they wouldnt be able to stop each other. But I guarantee you Shaq wouldnt ask for help when guarding Kareem. Wilt on the other hand said he needed it.

The reason why Shaq wouldn't ask for help is his pride, not his actual defensive ability. Shaq is great for team D because of his size, but he never was a good 1-on-1 defender. He would definitely need big help in his current state of body.

Thats one major misconception about mj's game. He didnt dominate the ball that much during the 3 peat. Pippen helped out with intiating the offense. Horace Grant got alot of touches in on the low blocks, and BJ and Pax brought the ball up alot. Jordan had the most touches obviously, but it's not like how kobe gets the rock now.

No, it's not. 8apg didn't come with a title. It was in the 89' season when he did dominate the ball.

Oh I'm not saying he wouldn't have led the league those years. I'm saying he wouldn't have averaged the same numbers, 50 ppg, 25 rpg etc. Oscar wouldn't have had his triple double year either.

Well, I agree with you on that one.

The Best of wilt was getting a 100 point game in a meaningless regular season game against a Knick team that won 29 games that season. The best of MJ was averaging 43 ppg in the finals and literally taking the bulls on his back in the final 4 games to get the ring. You tell me which were better at their best.

What I tried to say is, that 43ppg in the finals is MJ's best, while Wilt could do better than that in similar circumstances (IMHO, that is), but he was limited by his personality, not by his basketball skills/talent. Like I said, that's the difference between them: MJ is a winner, Wilt is not.

And I still think that KG is not a loser. He just has bad luck and seriously fucked up supporting cast.

[Sauru]

and in an era where he was about 4-5 inches taller than everyone(cept my main man bill)

True. But Yao is 4-5 inches taller than anyone, too. I don't see him dominate.

i have talked about this before also. i feel that players can grow too tall for the nba. yao is too tall. i always believed that 7'1" or 7'2" was the max height you want a player. most of the players that jump over 7'2" are not as good. now i like yao and i think he is good, just like i though eaton was good and smits and so on, but i feel all of them would have been better if they were only 7'1"

[Fenix]

I was just thinking how all of my arguments are completely pointless. Wilt shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath with MJ despite of his immense talent. Who is the best basketball player of all time? The one who led his team to the most prizes while being the MVP of his team. And in the history of NBA only Russel and Jordan can fight for this title.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

Who is the best basketball player of all time? The one who led his team to the most prizes while being the MVP of his team.

...and posseses the greatest overall skill.

[Fenix]

So Russel automatically doesn't win the race because he had no - or in best case modest - offensive skills?

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

So Russel automatically doesn't win the race because he had no - or in best case modest - offensive skills?

In my opinion, Bill Russell is definitely NOT the best basketball player ever. He was the greatest TEAM player/asset ever. Those are two different things. It's like saying Ben Wallace is the best player in the NBA after winning 5 consecutive titles with the Pistons.

[Fenix]

You're forgetting that basketball is a team sport and that 1-on-1 isn't everything.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

1-on-1 isn't everything.

Indeed, But it is SOMETHING, and somethingh Bill was lacking in. At least on offense. So that's minus a few points scored for him.

[GloveGuy]

I have very little doubt that Wilt could have dominated if he played in this era. You can't look at the generations because this guy would be a freak of nature even know. Think about it -- Shaq's strength with KG's athleticism. This guy was almost superhuman no matter what era you compare him to. To say that he wouldn't be dominant today is just ignorant and you need to listen to people who have actually seen him play.

Really, this guy was so much better than Shaq, it's not even funny. His passing was just as great for a big man, his athleticism was world-class, and he even had a little mid-range shot in his repetoire. One thing they have in common is that their achilles heel was free throws.

No one beat the Celtics. Wilt could put up ridiculous performances, dominate Bill Russell, and still, his team would lose. Basketball is a five-man sport. No one can single-handedly win championships. Wilt played with a bunch of scrubs during his Philly days, while Russell was surrouned by future HOFs.

[VexxatuVexx]

Chamberlin

[Matthew]

I was just thinking how all of my arguments are completely pointless. Wilt shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath with MJ despite of his immense talent. Who is the best basketball player of all time? The one who led his team to the most prizes while being the MVP of his team. And in the history of NBA only Russel and Jordan can fight for this title.

Kudos to you. But I also think Magic should be in the same discussion. He had 3 mvp's and 4 rings.

In my opinion, Bill Russell is definitely NOT the best basketball player ever. He was the greatest TEAM player/asset ever. Those are two different things. It's like saying Ben Wallace is the best player in the NBA after winning 5 consecutive titles with the Pistons.

If Ben Wallace won 11 rings in 13 seasons like Ben Wallace did, you could certainly make an arguement for him.

Indeed, But it is SOMETHING, and somethingh Bill was lacking in. At least on offense. So that's minus a few points scored for him.

Just as winning is somthing. You cant overlook winning like its nothing. Russell, MJ, Magic were all winners, while Wilt and Oscar weren't.

I have very little doubt that Wilt could have dominated if he played in this era. You can't look at the generations because this guy would be a freak of nature even know. Think about it -- Shaq's strength with KG's athleticism. This guy was almost superhuman no matter what era you compare him to. To say that he wouldn't be dominant today is just ignorant and you need to listen to people who have actually seen him play.

I have seen games of him. He wasnt as strong as Shaq. He was a David Robinson in the 60's. People make out that he was the incredible hulk out there. Wilt is no where near as strong as shaq. Think back to 2000 and 2001 for shaq's raw strength and how he dominated big centres such as Longley, Divac, Sabonis, Smits. All those guy were physically bigger than Wilt.

Really, this guy was so much better than Shaq, it's not even funny. His passing was just as great for a big man, his athleticism was world-class, and he even had a little mid-range shot in his repetoire. One thing they have in common is that their achilles heel was free throws.

Shaq is quick too. Remember him guarding Duncan? He even guarded an old MJ pretty well when they were switched in the 2003 asg. Dont underestimate his footspeed.

And yes Wilt had the midrange shot. He was a version of David Robinson, without the class.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

If Ben Wallace won 11 rings in 13 seasons like Bill Russell did, you could certainly make an arguement for him.

I could, but he still would not win. Just as Russel.

Just as winning is somthing. You cant overlook winning like its nothing. Russell, MJ, Magic were all winners, while Wilt and Oscar weren't.

True. But we are talking about 'greatest player ever', so individual skill is more of an issue to me.

[Matthew]

Whats the main point in basketball?

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

Whats the main point in basketball?

I see where you're getting at. This has been the point of several discussion, including the infamous "Who would you like to be, Horry or Malone?" thread.

Winning is the driving force behind the game, but if it was teh only thing of valus, then 29 teams would get scrapped at the end of the season... There are more things in basketball, drama, exxitement, idolization, skill, etc,etc.

WINNING isn't everything, no matter what Americans say...

[Matthew]

I'd rather be Malone, but thats besides the point.

The main point of basketball is to win. If you help your team by scoring (like Jordan) that shows you to be both talented and a winner. If you rack up points in a losing effort, that doesnt mean anything to me.

Of course it makes a difference if you're a role player or the goto guy. Thats why I'd take Malone. But with Jordan and Chamberlin, MJ helped his team by scoring points. Wilt didn't and often disappeared in the most critical of moments.

Are you racist towards Americans? Hmm...

[Fenix]

Are you racist towards Americans? Hmm...

Since when are American a 'race' ?

[Matthew]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Race

# A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.

Obviously they say the german race, but the same rule applies.

[Fenix]

You're right. It's just that the term 'race' in Slovene doesn't have the same meaning than the same term in English (I looked it up, and it defines people based on their psychical characteristics (color of skin etc.)).

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

But with Jordan and Chamberlin, MJ helped his team by scoring points. Wilt didn't and often disappeared in the most critical of moments.

Once again, if MJ was brutalized in the paint, elbowed, pushed, and having rules changed AGAINST him rather than FAVORING him, then I sincerely doubt MJ's numbers in the latter stage of his carreer would be anything like near 30ppg and such, not to mention the rings he wouldn't be able to win.

Let's face it, MJ was treated like the King of his era, while Wilt was treated like a freak that had to be stopped. That's why Wilt gets the most of my respect...

Are you racist towards Americans? Hmm...

DWeaver: "Hey, mother, someone here says I hate you"
Mom: "Who?"
DWeaver: "An Australian in an Internet forum"
Mom: "And how should he know?"
DWeaver: "Well, he says I hate Americans, so , with you being American and all..."
Mom: "What, he called you a racist?"
DWeaver: "Uhhh... yeah..."
Mom: "Let it be, son, let it be..."
DWeaver: "Okay mom. How's that mushroom soup coming?"

Since when are American a 'race'

Hmmm, nice point... maybe they are the 'premium' race.

[Matthew]

MJ was treated the king becuase he won! Don't you think that if Wilt had won he'd get all the accolades? I have no doubt in my mind that he would have.

I usually dont pay that big of a deal to winning, but it is a big deal in this case. Alot of Wilts games weren't televised, so we have to go on word of mouth. When going on word of mouth, you are susceptible to exagerations. When people say "he was truely unstopable" it is a clear exageration becuase he only won 2 rings. The whole "unstopable" is the bread and butter to wilts arguement.

Once again, if MJ was brutalized in the paint, elbowed, pushed, and having rules changed AGAINST him rather than FAVORING him, then I sincerely doubt MJ's numbers in the latter stage of his carreer would be anything like near 30ppg and such, not to mention the rings he wouldn't be able to win.

Tell me, what rules favoured MJ that didnt favour the rest of the league. The NBA was busy revolving around planet magic and bird to really even take note to Jordan until 1991. And MJ did get brutalised by the Pistons. The only difference is he didn't back away and kept going, and then once he got on top of that rivalry, it was over. New York tried similar tactics and got fucked up by MJ again.

You better come up with something significant as to how rule changes helped jordan or your entire arguement is out the window.

DWeaver: "Hey, mother, someone here says I hate you"
Mom: "Who?"
DWeaver: "An Australian in an Internet forum"
Mom: "And how should he know?"
DWeaver: "Well, he says I hate Americans, so , with you being American and all..."
Mom: "What, he called you a racist?"
DWeaver: "Uhhh... yeah..."
Mom: "Let it be, son, let it be..."
DWeaver: "Okay mom. How's that mushroom soup coming?"

You're such a spastic. This is what I said:
"Are you racist towards Americans?"
And you think thats someone calling you racist? Since when is a question considered a statement? And where did I mention hate?

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

The NBA was busy revolving around planet magic and bird to really even take note to Jordan until 1991.

The NBA takes notice of MJ around 1991. MJ starts winning around 1991. Nah... prolly just a coincidence...

You're such a spastic. This is what I said:
"Are you racist towards Americans?"
And you think thats someone calling you racist? Since when is a question considered a statement? And where did I mention hate?

You just can siscern a joke when you see one, right? Tell you what, first remove taht flag-pole from up you ass and maybe we can have a proper debate. Maybe then I'll

come up with something significant as to how rule changes helped jordan or your entire arguement is out the window.

[Matthew]

In other words you have nothing.