BIBLICAL debates 2005

[Strike Freedom]

True. This is the eternal 'Which one came first, the egg or the hen?' question. Nothing can be totally convincing in either direction... We are debating for the sake of thinking, no?
...

the hen!

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

the hen!

Talk about constructive criticism... Would you prefer 'the chicken' I wonder...?

[bullsfan009]

Nice testimonials, COOLmac and bullsfan009. It's nice to see you guys and people around you grasp some universal truths, and find meaning within life that is "life giving" rather than destructive.

Thanks, cyanide- that's a fundamental part of spirituality.

although i can easily disrupt your opinions and answer them, but your representation and minute detailing of your views will just make me look bad

bullsfan many thanks for making this thread a long worthwile read......as you can see.......we really are goind in circles but no matter.atleast many more are coming out and staking their views in here.good job

Thanks again. Yes, I'm glad that we NBA Live fans are talking about this...

True. This is the eternal 'Which one came first, the egg or the hen?' question. Nothing can be totally convincing in either direction... We are debating for the sake of thinking, no?

Yes, we are, and that's a good thing

[Andreas Dahl]

But to get back to the chicken, biology is in fact in a position to answer the question. We are all different from our parents. If you trace the ancestry of a humble chicken back through history and pre-history, tracing family trees, tracking down that elusive great-grandparent, you will eventually reach a point where the bird concerned can not be called a chicken. If you go back far enough, it is not even a bird. (Remember, the ancestors of birds were a type of reptile). So there must be a point where the chicken baby had two non-chicken parents. Let's call them protochickens. The protochicken mother laid an egg out of which hatched a chicken. The first chicken came from an egg, but that egg did not come from a chicken; it came from a protochicken.

The answer to the question is therefore: The chicken came first.

I'll give you guys a question to ponder for a little while; Why were there other kinds of 'human beings'. Australopithecus, Ardipithecus, various Homos’ (:wink:) and so on... None of them was even close (extremely far away) from being able to think abstract (God and so on). Why did god create people (or would they fall under the category animals then maybe?) that weren’t even aware of anything other than to hunt and fuck? I though he wanted us to follow his teachings and live by him, not live in ignorance and, in a way, reject him.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

The answer to the question is therefore: The chicken came first.

Ok, so the first ever chicken came out of an egg, according to this... So why can we not say that it was the egg that came first, since the protochickens that 'made' the egg are not chickens themselves? It depends on the definition of that particular egg. If we call it 'a protochicken egg' then yes, the chicken came first. But if we call it 'The first chicken-including egg', then it is the egg that came first.

As you can see, the whole chicken-egg thing varies upon definition, so it is indeed a matter that can only cause discussions to go in circles...

Australopithecus, Ardipithecus, various Homos’

Those are Greek words,friend , except the Homo - whatever variety that is Latin, if I am not mistaken.

Why did god create people (or would they fall under the category animals then maybe?) that weren’t even aware of anything other than to hunt and fuck? I though he wanted us to follow his teachings and live by him, not live in ignorance and, in a way, reject him

Okay. First of all, people who believe in God ,in the biblical sense, do not accept the Theory of Evolution. They are all about Adam and Eve being the first humans, in any form and shape alike modern humans. So that question does not pose itself for those who believe in God and the Bible.

Secondly, if one is incapable of rational or even sentient thought, cannot be blamed for ignarance as far as God is concerned. So the prime humans, or the forefathers of humans, cannot have rejected god because the whole issue of his existence or not never did occur in their simple minds.

Why did god create people that weren’t even aware of anything other than to hunt and fuck

or would they fall under the category animals then maybe?

You made the point yourself. Probably for the same reasons he created animals. Are they sentient? Can they hold abstract thoughts in their brains? Probably no. Then why make them? What's the purpose? I cannot give an answer or even make an assumption on that, as I am not a believer in God. Maybe someone else can care to elaborate on the subject from their own point of view.

I believe that Evolution needs to preserve the food chain in order for all the different species to 'fit' and 'play their part' in the planet they reside upon. That makes humans not much different than animals,at least when the purpose of their making is concerned.

[Andreas Dahl]

Ok, so the first ever chicken came out of an egg, according to this... So why can we not say that it was the egg that came first, since the protochickens that 'made' the egg are not chickens themselves? It depends on the definition of that particular egg. If we call it 'a protochicken egg' then yes, the chicken came first. But if we call it 'The first chicken-including egg', then it is the egg that came first.

As you can see, the whole chicken-egg thing varies upon definition, so it is indeed a matter that can only cause discussions to go in circles...

Well, since the 'protochickens' genes were in that way so that their offspring would be different (a chicken), the actually egg was still the same since the attributes of an egg does not lie in the genes, but in the mothers own body; and her genes, which was that of a 'protochicken'. What I'm getting at is that the egg would be the same whether it was a chicken or a freaking rhino in that egg (not that that would be possible, but I hope you get what I'm saying), and that the only thing that was actually different in that entity was the chicken inside of it.

Okay. First of all, people who believe in God ,in the biblical sense, do not accept the Theory of Evolution. They are all about Adam and Eve being the first humans, in any form and shape alike modern humans. So that question does not pose itself for those who believe in God and the Bible.

Well not all Christians stand by the Adam and Eve theory (most of the ones who don't think of everything in the bible as hard facts, but sometimes as figurative). But that does not matter, since my first question was, in fact, about the existence of them; it was a fully valid question to ask, since many Christians don't believe (as you said yourself) in the evolution-theory. The question was 'Why was there... ?'

Secondly, if one is incapable of rational or even sentient thought, cannot be blamed for ignarance as far as God is concerned. So the prime humans, or the forefathers of humans, cannot have rejected god because the whole issue of his existence or not never did occur in their simple minds.

The question I was trying to make here was why did god create 'humans' if they were incapable of being aware of his existence or able to 'follow his word'. I didn't mean to say that they rejected him, but why god created beings that couldn't grasp his existence nor reject it (freedom of choice). Sorry if I wasn't clear or if I miss-expressed myself there.

When it comes down to it, the fact is that Neanderthals, dinosaurs and other creatures existed, and proven so; which doesn't quite unite with the bibles views of things (Adam & Eve).


I agree with you on the point that you said that humans are not much different from animals; I'm under the belief myself, that humans is just self-righteousness, too smart for their own good, animals when it comes down to it...

[bullsfan009]

Andreas Dahl- there are people living today in jungles, islands, etc. who are far removed from society and who have never heard of God, and who knows, maybe never thought of God before either.

I though he wanted us to follow his teachings and live by him, not live in ignorance and, in a way, reject him.

We discussed this towards the start of this thread- this is essentially the same as asking "How does God judge the infant who dies before they are able to think clearly," or what about that person on the deserted island? No one knows, obviously, and everyone has a different answer. I think that it's a combination of Him knowing people's hearts, and also, being all-knowing, knowing what they would have done given the same opportunities that normal people get.

Now WHY do these people never get a chance? It's the same as, "Why did the Holocaust happen," and "Why are there people right NOW in the world who are starving, or being killed or abused?" I believe that God created free will, and has put a limit on himself not to mess with it.

Have you ever seen the movie with Jim Carrey "Bruce Almighty?" It was a funny but in the end very profound movie about God. Well, when Carrey was given the ability to be God for awhile by the real God (played by Morgan Freeman), the Real God tells him there are just two rules:
You can't tell anyone you're God.
You can't mess with free will.

If you think about it, this is how God is (although he does intervene sometimes- again i don't know why).

When it comes down to it, the fact is that Neanderthals, dinosaurs and other creatures existed, and proven so; which doesn't quite unite with the bibles views of things (Adam & Eve).

It all fits in- but not taking the Bible literally. (or if it can I dunno about it)

[Andreas Dahl]

That was, again, not what I was asking (sorry if I was unclear). I was asking why God created humans that had no possibility of thinking abstract and, in no way, was able to follow god's word? Or in any way, for that matter, follow him.
They were more than savages, and I doubt that they didn't break all of god’s commandments; although how could they know it was wrong if god didn't make them able to understand that... I hope that makes what I was trying to say clearer.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

the only thing that was actually different in that entity was the chicken inside of it.

True, but the egg was there, no matter its kind. Without the egg, there would be no chicken whatsoever... Therefore te egg preceded the chicken, despite the difference between the chicken's and the egg's 'genes'. In the end it all winds down to semantics, but that's how subtle this whole issue is...

The question I was trying to make here was why did god create 'humans' if they were incapable of being aware of his existence or able to 'follow his word'.

And I answered, for the same reason he created animals. What might that reason be? I do not know and cannot answer from a God-believer point of view.

I think that it's a combination of Him knowing people's hearts, and also, being all-knowing, knowing what they would have done given the same opportunities that normal people get.

Then what's the purpose of putting people on this earth if their actions are already known and the quality of their hearts determined upon creation? It does not make sense, at least in human logic...

[Andreas Dahl]

And I answered, for the same reason he created animals. What might that reason be? I do not know and cannot answer from a God-believer point of view.

I believe it is written that animals are put here to be ruled by humans (for food and stuff like that). So that doesn't make much since then.

I agree with you on the quote on bullsfan009 as well. If our true self is already known to God, then why 'go through it all' if heaven is the goal anyway. The same thing is in Islam, where this life is a trial to determine whether we go to heaven or not. But wouldn't God already know what kind of person we are, without us having to go through a tough trial... After all, he is almighty and omnipotent


I'm tiread at the moment and don't really care to think much more of the egg and chicken. I'll post a reply tomorow if I come up with something about that. Both parts don't seem to budge though...

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

I believe it is written that animals are put here to be ruled by humans (for food and stuff like that).

Maybe god picked his favorite animal and decided to evolve it into something greater... something that would eventually become so dominant on the planet that it would eventually destroy all life upon its surface... Hey, maybe it's the devil that made humans!!!

[COOLmac©]

why did God created these inferior humans?

first of all, they aren't humans......they are animals.... so their purposed is NATURE, you know food chain, hierarchy in the animal world,,,, do you really believe that you came out of a monkey or a HOMO something? i don't...

i have to go back in again in the bible for this to opened a few poeples eyes,

as we have read in Genesis God created Adam and Eve as the first man/woman on earth.........but! a big BUT, is after eve's son cain was banished from the land they were farming because he killed his brother abel, the man known as cain went to a place far away from the outskirts of turkey.....and the bible stated that he met a wife their and have a family, if you're really meticulous about it,where the hell did this wife came from? it never was stated in the bible that God stop making humans after He made adam/eve.......i hope you all get my point

[bullsfan009]

That was, again, not what I was asking (sorry if I was unclear). I was asking why God created humans that had no possibility of thinking abstract and, in no way, was able to follow god's word? Or in any way, for that matter, follow him.

This is a tough question, but I think that COOLmac came up with the best answer for it- that these "humans" were considered animals.

But that still doesn't account for people born today with severe brain damage, who live their lives on feeding tubes and appear to have to coherent thoughts. Why do these people exist? I cannot not say, only that I believe that God has a purpose for everyone.

If our true self is already known to God, then why 'go through it all' if heaven is the goal anyway.

Then what's the purpose of putting people on this earth if their actions are already known and the quality of their hearts determined upon creation? It does not make sense, at least in human logic...

Good questions. My answer comes with a quote that I read in a book a few days ago:

"The average person directly or indirectly affects about 10,000 people in their entire life."

We have to live everything out because our actions on earth matter! Everyone affects many other people during their lives, and life on earth is important (to God too).

And finally, one thing I want to clear up: I don't believe that our fates are already set at our births by God, because that would take away our free will. But instead, God just knows what's going to happen, and lets it play out.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

God just knows what's going to happen, and lets it play out.

For what? His amusement? If God already knows the fate of each man and of humanity as a whole, then what's the purpose of creating man and putting him on this earth. If you knew the ending of teh latest mivie, would you go and pay money to see it? No, you wouldn't...

"The average person directly or indirectly affects about 10,000 people in their entire life."

We have to live everything out because our actions on earth matter! Everyone affects many other people during their lives, and life on earth is important (to God too).

As I have said before, if every person's heart is known to god, then these people do not need me to affect their lives in order to be judged according to their own hearts... Since god already knows their hearts, then whether I affect their lives or not is inconsequent in the end...

[bullsfan009]

For what? His amusement? If God already knows the fate of each man and of humanity as a whole, then what's the purpose of creating man and putting him on this earth.

Of course, I don't know, but I think that there are certain things that must come to pass on earth. I don't know God's motives, but he obviously cares about the earth (enough to send his son Jesus there).

As I have said before, if every person's heart is known to god, then these people do not need me to affect their lives in order to be judged according to their own hearts... Since god already knows their hearts, then whether I affect their lives or not is inconsequent in the end...

Think of it this way- God knows how people's hearts will end up.

But to get to that point, each person must go through life, experience many experiences, learn many things, and shape their hearts until the day they die.

I do see your point, though- what difference is there in terms of God's judgement for someone who dies at 10 years old and someone who dies at 80 years old, if He just judges on how they would have ended up? Well, I don't pretend to know all the answers, because I don't. How people live on earth is important to God too, I believe.

All I know is that life must be valued and protected, and it is precious. And that God's will will be done on earth, in whatever way and for whatever reasons...

[COOLmac©]

God can see a lotta of future....

NOW for the time TO LOOK BAD at the discussions against DW
well to put my final rebuttal at the evolution theory as it is getting kinda old.
my point is this, take a look at the other animal species we have around...
let's say the cats....there are many species of cats, the lions, tigers, tigons, ligers, domestic cats,bobcats etc.....the birds....some have very long neck....others super long beaks.....others can't fly......unto the fishes....they came in all sizes....humonguos and very small.......many different species there, the monkeys have gorillas orang utans and yes the tiny tarsiers....all because of evolution as you guys tried to point out....

we now came to the big question: tell me what other species the human race have?
NONE....we only have one....that is the human race.....if you look at it.there isn't much difference at all......yes the skin color maybe, the eyes, but if you look at it there are no other species beyond the human race....they may boast about that there are 300 or so species of frogs.....with differet characteristics,the spiders and their biological make.....but humans in general all have 4 limbs......a head that has the same thing and a fragile body.....that's all........nothing else come close.......not even the damn monkeys........
so to concluded my argument......we humans are unique.......and not a product of evolution, because if so.....we could have many more species beyond the perfect specimen we are now today.....

now unto a new topic.
DISCALIMER: these info is just for you to read, if it casues inconvenience pls ignore immediately.

the topic of the latest news circulating today.........

as i have stated in the previous pages of this thread... whenever Jesus did a story/lecture in the new testament it is always calls for religion/spiritual meanings behind it all........not political at all......

MATTHEW 23:9
"and call no MAN your FATHER upon the earth; for one is your father which is in heaven"


many have argued that "shit can't we call our biological parents "father" anymore.....man this Jesus teaching sucks"......BUT as i said Jesus teachings are either spiritual or religion based.......so it is very okay to call our earthly biological fathers as our very own father, but when it comes into religion, as Jesus specifically imply "NO MAN"
when he means NO MAN it really means noone.

why is this so....as we can read in the next phrase...."FOR ONE IS YOUR FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN"

ahhh that's why the prayer MATTHEW 6:9
"our Father, which art in heaven, hollowed be thy name........."

actually Jesus has refered to God by the name Father all throughout the New Testament......and he never called anyone Father besides God, not even Peter... so even Jesus put noone on earth greater than God...

John15:15
"Henceforth I call you not servants,for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth:but I have called you FRIENDS, for all things i have heard of my Father, I have made known unto you."

so what did Jesus advice for us to call each other......ever heard of the terms brothers and sisters?

1corinthians7:15
"But if the unbelieving depart,let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace."

all in all we can call each other FRIENDS, BROTHERS, SISTERS in faith..... there is noone greater than each of us, we are all i the same class....no one is most holy noone is most high. amen
some religions follow this callings, some don't....

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

well to put my final rebuttal at the evolution theory as it is getting kinda old.
my point is this, take a look at the other animal species we have around...
let's say the cats....there are many species of cats, the lions, tigers, tigons, ligers, domestic cats,bobcats etc.....the birds....soem have very long neck....others super long beaks.....others can't fly......unto the fishes....they came in all sizes....humonguos and very small.......many different species there, the monkeys have gorillas orang utans and yes the tiny tarsiers....all because of evolution as you guys tried to point out....

we now came to the big question: tell me what other species the human race have?
NONE....we only have one....that is the human race.....if you look at it.there isn't much difference at all......yes the skin color maybe, the eyes, but if you look at it there are no other species beyond the human race....they may boast about that there are 300 or so species of frogs.....with differet characteristics,the spiders and their biological make.....but humans in general all have 4 limbs......a head that has the same thing and a fragile body.....that's all........nothing else come close.......not even the damn monkeys........
so to concluded my argument......we humans are unique.......and not a product of evolution, because if so.....we could have many more species beyond the perfect specimen we are now today.....

Unique we are,yes,and our cognitive minds make us so... Evolution fends for all species in its own way...

The giraffe has a long neck in order to reach leaves in tall tres and/or notice predators from afar...

A bird has a small beak because its main source of food is found in little crevices or tiny flowers, while another type of bird has a long beak to catch fish in the water...

Different needs, different formations of various body organs or apparatus...

The man, on the other hand, has benefited differently from Evolution. He was provided with an adaptable cognitive mind , capable of abstract and creative thinking. If man is required to protect himself from predators, he will use his brain to build walls, traps, and eventually Weapons of Mass Destruction to annihilate all threat... If he wishes to eat leaves in high trees he will build scaffoldings and ladders...

In other words, the human mind that makes us so different is nothing more than an extremely advanced and complicated Evolutionary tool.

Yes, man is unique. There are no variations of humans in structure. And I ask: Why would there be a need for that? Since the focus of human actions are thoughts rather than insticts, variations are being created by choice and need combined, and each individual human is capable of producing a different result. That is adaptability in its highest form. And that was the entire purpose of Evolution in the first place: Adaptability.
That's why they call humans 'The pinnacle of Evolution'

as i have stated in the precious pages of this thread... wheever Jesus did a story/lecture in the new testament it is always calls for religion/spiritual meanings behind it all........not political at all......

MATTHEW 23:9
"and call no MAN your FATHER upon the earth; for one is your father which is in heaven"


many have argued that "shit can't we call our biological parents "father" anymore.....man this Jesus teaching sucks"......BUT as i said Jesus teachings are either spiritual or religion based.......so it is very okay to call our earthly biological fathers as our very own father, also beyond that as Jesus specifically imply "NO MAN"
when he means NO MAN it really means noone.

why is this so....as we can read in the next phrase...."FOR ONE IS YOUR FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN"

ahhh that's why the prayer MATTHEW 6:9
"our Father, which art in heaven, hollowed be thy name........."

actually Jesus has refered to God by the name Father all throughout the New Testament......and he never called anyone Father not even Peter...

John15:15
"Henceforth I call you not servants,for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth:but I have called you FRIENDS, for all things i have heard of my Father, I have made known unto you."

so what did Jesus advice for us to call each other......ever heard of the terms brothers and sisters?

1corinthians7:15
"But if the unbelieving depart,let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace."

all in all we can call each other FRIENDS, BROTHERS, SISTERS in faith.....
soem religions follow this callings, some don't....

Semantics, semantics, semantics. Don't get caught up on words, that's what the Phariseans did, and we know how good it turned out to be for them, right?

[Andreas Dahl]

we now came to the big question: tell me what other species the human race have?
NONE....we only have one....that is the human race.....if you look at it.there isn't much difference at all......yes the skin color maybe, the eyes, but if you look at it there are no other species beyond the human race....they may boast about that there are 300 or so species of frogs.....with differet characteristics,the spiders and their biological make.....but humans in general all have 4 limbs......a head that has the same thing and a fragile body.....that's all........nothing else come close.......not even the damn monkeys........
so to concluded my argument......we humans are unique.......and not a product of evolution, because if so.....we could have many more species beyond the perfect specimen we are now today.....

We are a product of evolution...

Code: Select all

Ardipithicus ramidus          5 to 4 million years ago
Australopithecus anamensis    4.2 to 3.9 million years ago
Australopithecus afarensis    4 to 2.7 million years ago
Australopithecus africanus    3 to 2 million years ago
Australopithecus robustus     2.2 to 1.6 million years ago
Homo habilis                  2.2 to 1.6 million years ago
Homo erectus                  2.0 to 0.4 million years ago
Homo sapiens archaic          400 to 200 thousand years ago
Homo sapiens neandertalensis  200 to 30 thousand years ago
Homo sapiens sapiens          200 thousand years ago to present

[COOLmac©]

DW you calling Jesus a semantic? that was his teaching you know not mine!

and to reiterate: the HUMAN EVOLUTION is just a theory

because if so.....we could have many more species beyond the perfect specimen we are now today

[Dweaver99027]

the HUMAN EVOLUTION is just a theory

So is God...

[Strike Freedom]

Everything has a beginning and an end.
When did evolution begin?
what causes it to exist?
Life also a beginning, but how do they exist?
No human can create life..
Human's a mystery, isn't it?

Noone can prove the existence of evolution, unless they've the time machine to go back and witness it.
However, if God didn't exist, why were people talking about God today?
For 2000+ years, the subject of God has never been stopped.
Why?????

[J@3]

Dweaver why did you register a new account? It's against the rules, if you had a problem with your password or whatever you could've just told Andrew.

[Dweaver99027]

Dweaver why did you register a new account? It's against the rules, if you had a problem with your password or whatever you could've just told Andrew.

Yes, I've been having some account problems and trying to work around it. You should probably PM me this instead of putting it in plain sight at the bible thread of all places, though...

[bullsfan009]

To follow up on what Mr. SO said, take for example the Big Bang Theory, which states that all the matter in the universe was condensed into one "singularity"- sort of like a big ball. Then, something triggered an explosion, and everything came out, and eventually after many millions of years, everything formed. And that also is why, according to the theory, to this day the universe is still expanding...

Now wait just a minute: WHERE did that original ball/singularity of matter come from??? How did it get there? When? Why? There had to be a beginning, right? A time when the first millimeter of matter appeared, but how could something come from nothing? It's impossible.

And say that you believe in God, and the theory of creation. Now you can explain everything about the starting of the earth and the galaxies, all the matter, etc. The question that comes up now is: WHEN was God born? Why? When did God "start," and HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE???

Because ultimately, what you're asking is "How could something come from nothing?"- because the human concept of everything is that there is a beginning, a middle, and an end.

Well in the bible, it says, "IN THE BEGINNING, God created the heavens and the earth." In the beginning, God was already there!

Now you cannot prove or disprove the theory of evolution or God, but if you want to come as close as you can to explain this unexplainable beginning of the universe, take this quote from Jesus: "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

I believe that believing in God gets you closest to the truth.

[cyanide]

However, if God didn't exist, why were people talking about God today?
For 2000+ years, the subject of God has never been stopped.
Why?????

The subject of God was more like 200 000+ years old. There's always been some sort of ritual to some higher power. Freud's theory was that man is alone in a sublime world, and suffered the trauma of self-consciousness. So man sought security by worshipping a higher form (God) to take care of them, or at least, be present in spiritual form.

Now wait just a minute: WHERE did that original ball/singularity of matter come from??? How did it get there? When? Why? There had to be a beginning, right? A time when the first millimeter of matter appeared, but how could something come from nothing? It's impossible.

That's one of the reasons why I believe there is a God.