most underrated and overrated in the game?

[Metsis]

mchakko... You just can't say that some ancient team would have beaten a team of today... You just cannot...

The game has changed so much... It's a whole other ball game than what it was in the eighties... There has always been guys that standout, but I would say that the average skill and physique of an NBA caliber player is higher and higher as we move on. Today the players are considerably bigger, taller, athletic, more skilled than ever before on average...

Wilt was a monster... He had all the tools and he was pretty much like Shaq is today... The biggest, strongest and fastest center out there... That's what so incredible about these guys. I would say that Shaq has more opposition today than Wilt ever had, size wise... Wilt had Bill, but those were the two good big guys out there...

The game gets better and the players that play the game get better... I bet you that if you would take Oscar Robertson in his prime and put him out there today he wouldn't be able to average a triple-double...

But this is pointless... As I said that the past guys were excellent back then... Todays heroes like Kobe, TMac, Shaq, TimmyD and KG are great now. It's impossible to compare them... You cannot compare them because the game is all different...

The fact that the guys are bigger, faster and more skilled makes the passing game of the eighties pretty much impossible... Phoenix has had some success with that this season, but overall the court is more filled now than ever before and that in it self makes passing more difficult.

And when you have 6'8" 245lbs guys coming from high school, well that's all I have to say about that...

I could even say that the early 90's MJ wouldn't have as much success today as he had back then... The game evolves with the players...

They are all good... They are all super-stars... They have all dominated... Isn't that enough??? It's good enough for me...

Wilt taking 63 shots... Well it's no longer a viable strat as the teams recognise this and make sure that the guy doesn't get that shot off after going 15/20 in the first half... Shaq got hacked during the play-offs when Lakers were winning everything... I don't think this strategy was ever used against Wilt... And he wouldn't have scored the 100 points if it were.

Jordan's 63 point game... That was something else... Didn't he get hurt in that game and came back even angrier than ever and just crushed the other team and they couldn't stop him...

They are all impressive performances... The game changes... They are all super stars that will be coveted by bball fans forever...

[COOLmac©]

amen ...wow metsis another long post enough to make me tire my eyes.

actually it all boils up to what era you play in. we can't just compare this player to this player if they are at different era's because that would just not fit..like comparing fashion from the 60's compared to the fashion in the 90's

[mchakko]

I wasn't gonna argue anymore...I definitely don't agree about Wilt getting too much credit because he's dead - he got just as much credit before he died, it wasn't that long ago. I really disagree with that detail about his death changing things, but that's pretty irrelevant. I agree with you about 63 shots, the very idea of someone averaging 50 a game shows that the game was a lot different and makes you want to throw it out as an aberration or just an incomparable era.

I chalk up his lack of success against Russell to the fact that Russell's the greatest defender of all time and arguably the best player of all time (his lack of offense argues against that though, and I wonder how he'd hold up at 6'9" today...but he equalled Wilt who was 7'1", so I assume he'd do okay.)

Malone was absolutely a choker IMO, Utah would have won those titles if he hadn't. Ewing top 10 center? maybe...Shaq,Olaujuwon,Russell,Wilt,Kareem,Malone...yeah I think he can make it. You can't really argue against the Bulls' greatness relative to their competition, if the league were less watered down they would've probably had another superstar; it's not their fault about their era.

My memory is failing me, I thought that Jordan tripping was in the finals game 5, not against the Pacers. I think I've repressed most of that offseason, it was just bad all around;

metsis makes a great point, it's hard to believe, but it really is a different era now compared to even the 80's - there weren't any giant SF's back then like Dirk, KG (except for Brad Sellers, ha!)...Jordan's athleticism was an anomaly but now we have guys like Kobe cropping up. I still think the best teams of the 80's would do well beause they had 2-3 hof'ers and usually had a big solid center...but it's still changing.

[maes]

I totallya gree with metsis, and that point about the modern technology changing the game has been said by the Legends themselves.

Take a child of 11 years old, have him doing weights, eating the right foods, monitoring his blood chemistry, and exposing him to world class trainers and by the time he's 20 you've got freaks like LeBron & Garnett.

Julius Erving never lifted a weight in his life. Imagine how scary Doc J would be if he was 16 now and had access to all this sports tech.

Those guys back then deserve credit as trailblazers, doing what nobody did before, but things have moved on since their time.

[COOLmac©]

yeah i saw birds body......looks like he never lifted even a 10 pound of wieghts all in his nba career

[debiler]

yeah i saw birds body......looks like he never lifted even a 10 pound of wieghts all in his nba career

You saw Birds body? That's scary, man...

Back on topic:

I think that (original ratings of course) Dirk is quite underrated. I don't remember the exact number, but I think he was in the mid 80s. As is LeBron. The first overrated player I can think of would be Antoine Walker. He still has All-Star ratings...

[Metsis]

Toine's still a pretty good player... He just didn't fit in Dallas to that low post role as Dirk was already a big guy playing perimeter and he didn't have his heart out for the game in Atlanta this season, but look at him now back in Boston... That's just crazy... Boston's gone 9-1 after Toine coming back and that's an impact if you can make one.

That's the problem with a CPU game that you don't have all the details and can't add all the details into the game especially with consoles limiting the depth of the game...

Antoine is good, but he's a bit trigger happy and hasn't been in a place where he wanted to play since he left Boston the first time... He's back for seconds and his stats seem to indicate that he's having good time at it too.

Boston has a pretty scary line up BTW. LaFrentz, Walker, Pierce, Allen, Payton starting and Ricky Davis and Mark Blount coming off the bench... That's a pretty good team and the 9-1 proves it.

I feel that Antoine Walker is an emotional player... What I mean is that when he feels like playing is great, he goes out there and gives 220% for the team, but when there isn't much point to winning etc. he's playing at 60%... I just have gotten this feeling about him during the years. How do you implement this into the game???

[Matthew]

I wasn't gonna argue anymore...I definitely don't agree about Wilt getting too much credit because he's dead - he got just as much credit before he died, it wasn't that long ago.

Thats not exactly true. The world of basketball still revolved around planet MJ, and Wilt wasnt even considered to be better than russell.

I chalk up his lack of success against Russell to the fact that Russell's the greatest defender of all time and arguably the best player of all time (his lack of offense argues against that though, and I wonder how he'd hold up at 6'9" today...but he equalled Wilt who was 7'1", so I assume he'd do okay.)

I agree, Russel was the best defender in league history. The funny thing though is Wilt was contained by someone who wouldnt even be considered a centre by todays standards.

Malone was absolutely a choker IMO, Utah would have won those titles if he hadn't. Ewing top 10 center? maybe...Shaq,Olaujuwon,Russell,Wilt,Kareem,Malone...yeah I think he can make it. You can't really argue against the Bulls' greatness relative to their competition, if the league were less watered down they would've probably had another superstar; it's not their fault about their era.

Malone was not a choker, the man went to war everytime. He struggled against the stella team defense of the chicago bulls, but apart from that, he was as unstopable as anyone has anyone seen at his position. He just reached his prime at the wrong time.

My memory is failing me, I thought that Jordan tripping was in the finals game 5, not against the Pacers. I think I've repressed most of that offseason, it was just bad all around;

Jordan had to jack up a fadeaway 3 to try and bail the Bulls out of the game 5 loss. Nearly made it too, it was dead on line

there weren't any giant SF's back then like Dirk

You dont consider Bird or Dominique as giant small forwards?

[fgrep15]

The game has changed so much... It's a whole other ball game than what it was in the eighties... There has always been guys that standout, but I would say that the average skill and physique of an NBA caliber player is higher and higher as we move on. Today the players are considerably bigger, taller, athletic, more skilled than ever before on average...

I think skill wise he would be able to, but teams just aren't taking 100 shots and averaging 120 PPG anymore, so that would hinder him from doing it. Their's some guys now who could possibly average triple doubles with the 70's pace, Jason Kidd definately, Jordan one of his years, Lebron likely sometimes, and other guys who would be close, Scottie Pippen, Grant Hill, Clyde Drexler [define "close"]. To do that though, you gotta play a lotta minutes, I've seen a lot of older guys who never wanted to come out of games even in blowouts.

Oscar would still be a beast though, he'd be like Jason Kidd but a better scorer, something like 25-6-9, since his team wouldn't be averaging 70.8 rebounds a game, I think he'd be down a little

[maes]

In the update Toine is an 80, which puts him even with Odom & Finley, and in the same neighborhood as guys like RJ, Pau, Jamison. That's pretty accurate imho.

His main problem is his salary. I heard he'll be resigning for $5M to stay in Boston...now that will be a killer team.

It's good to see Pierce & Walker back again, with Ricky Davis to back em now. A damn solid team.

[Ronchie]

I have a question, where do i put biedrins? i dont see much of golden state so i ask.

[fgrep15]

I think Walker's rating is fine, one thing many people fail to realize is that a videogame's rating is based on a players skill, and Antione Walker is one of the most skilled players in the NBA.

he cna score 20 points, grab 9+ rebounds, dish out 4-5 assists, handle the ball, get steals, jack up three's if it counts as a skill, and also has a good post game that he never wants to use.

One thing that needs to be changed is to make ratings position specific, make athletic abilities weigh a little less in overall ratings, and make the dunk rating not affect your overall.

[VMS]

Carmelo.

I think he's atleast close to LeBron in skill level, but LeBron's a 93 and 'Melo's in the 80's. Bron is overrated in this game.

EDIT: And Nikoloz Tskitishvili. He's an under-the-radar player. I call him the poor-man's Dirk. 7' tall, and a beastly shot, all around the court.

[Metsis]

Carmelo.

I think he's atleast close to LeBron in skill level, but LeBron's a 93 and 'Melo's in the 80's. Bron is overrated in this game.

Again this is a game and the players ratings figure out how he plays and what kind of a stat line he produces especially when simulating... Melo's been no where near as good as LeBron has been this season... LeBron 93 and Melo 83 is a good comparison this season... Last season I would have rated Bron only a couple of overall points higher than Melo, but either LeBron has improved his game way more or Melo is just having an off season.

Overall 83 is still good... He's good, I'm not saying otherwise, but LeBron is a superstar stat wise and otherwise in comparison... Overall 83 is putting him in the mix with lot's of good players like Pau Gasol, Ray Allen, Antoine Walker, Rasheed Wallace etc. Those are all star players and very important to their respective teams just like Melo... Melo just hasn't been that good this season... Maybe he'll pick up his game again next season as Denver could use his production, but right now... Don't go comparing BronBron's game performance to Melo's... There's a clear difference...

[fgrep15]

Carmelo.

I think he's atleast close to LeBron in skill level, but LeBron's a 93 and 'Melo's in the 80's. Bron is overrated in this game.

EDIT: And Nikoloz Tskitishvili. He's an under-the-radar player. I call him the poor-man's Dirk. 7' tall, and a beastly shot, all around the court.

Lebron is averaging 26 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 2+ steals, 48% FG, 35% 3PT. Lebron is also a better defender than Carmelo, though not the best defender himself.

Carmelo: 20 points, 6 rebounds, 3 assists, barely 1 steal [1.02], 41% FG, 28% 3PT, the only things I can think of him having on Lebron are offensive rebounding, mid-range shooting, which is debatable now with Lebron's improvements, and FT shooting.

Okay, so now let's list the ratings Lebron would have higher than Carmelo:

3PT
Inside scoring
Dunk
Jump
Speed
Quickness
Dribble
Pass
Offensive Awareness
Defensive Rebound
Steal
Block
Defensive Awareness
Stamina
Primacy

If Lebron is higher than him in all those ratings, and in some by a fair margin, I'd expect him to have a much higher overall. Lebron at this moment is on a different level than Carmelo, Wade is on a different level than Carmelo. Carmelo is a 80-83 guy while they're 85+.

[Fitzy]

Underated:
Brian Scalabrine
Fred Jones (dunks should be like 99)
Reggie Evans

Overated:
Alonzo Mourining
Brent Barry
Carmelo Anthony

[debiler]

Fred Jones (dunks should be like 99)

A definite NO on that. He is a great dunker, but he hasn't got the repertoire Vince Carter or Jason Richardson have. His jumping is in the high 90s, but his dunk rating should be around 88-92. I don't think he could pull off a behind the back like J.R. Smith did this year or someting like Josh Smith's winning dunk.

[fgrep15]

Yea Fred Jones dunk rating should be like 85, he has power dunks, but he doesn't do anything close to what J-Rich, Vince etc do.

[Fitzy]

Alright i didnt realise that his jump was so high. What happens if the players dunk is 30 but their jump is 99? Do they jump up and lay it up and touch the top of the backboard ?

[debiler]

Alright i didnt realise that his jump was so high. What happens if the players dunk is 30 but their jump is 99? Do they jump up and lay it up and touch the top of the backboard ?

With a dunk rating of 30, I'd think that a player makes only basic, wide-open dunks. But he would be more likely to do layups most of the time.

[BIG_B]

I think that raggie miller is very underated , personally i feel he should be atleast a 75 when they only have him at a 64 , i mean he is one of the best clutch 3 point shooter and he is a 64 comon now think a lil.

what do you guys think?

[artypoe]

Ithinkthe arguement about the greatest player of all time is pretty much done, but i'd like to add some stuff that i hope would settle it. It's difficult to compare players of different era, each have their own unique styles. Most needed their "sidekicks" just like jordan couldn't get it done on his own till pippen came along. Everyone has their own arguement, which i think is rather true on each person's side. So y not everyone make peace n admire their own heroes n appreciate the others? Stupid comments made by a rookie forum participant, hope it doesn't offend anyone...

[Metsis]

I think that raggie miller is very underated , personally i feel he should be atleast a 75 when they only have him at a 64 , i mean he is one of the best clutch 3 point shooter and he is a 64 comon now think a lil.

what do you guys think?

Miller is dead on... He's lost some of that step and he is taking his game into the back burner rather than being the man on the indiana team. There's JO, Ron-Ron and Jackson to do that. Miller is more of a bench warmer/support player now-a-days so he's rated 64 and that's fine. This isn't Miller in his prime, it's Miller how he's today. He is one of the best shooters and his shooting skills are still very high so he can still shoot and get cluthes etc. But he doesn't score 20 points every game especially when they have the younger guys in the lineup. Which hasn't been the case too often this season, but the game cannot reflect that.

Miller is supporting cast today... He's still good, but he ain't the star he used to be. Check him on the 90's all-star team and you'll see how good he was in his prime... He's in there, right? He should be...

[debiler]

Ithinkthe arguement about the greatest player of all time is pretty much done, but i'd like to add some stuff that i hope would settle it. It's difficult to compare players of different era, each have their own unique styles. Most needed their "sidekicks" just like jordan couldn't get it done on his own till pippen came along. Everyone has their own arguement, which i think is rather true on each person's side. So y not everyone make peace n admire their own heroes n appreciate the others? Stupid comments made by a rookie forum participant, hope it doesn't offend anyone...

So true. The only way to compare players like Shaq and Wilt would be a matchup of their teams (not one on one, cause bball is a team game) with both players in their prime. Since this cannot be done, we will never know who would stand out among the others. The only things we can say for sure is that Wilt was the most intimidating, Bill Russell the toughest contender, Magic the most spectacular, Bird the ugliest (and mentally strongest) and Shaquille O'Neal the most dominant OF THEIR TIME. I did not mention Jordan here, because it's ridiculous to even argue about him. For me - and many, many more - he just is the greatest player I've ever seen. It was unbelievable what he did. And in Germany many 16 year old boys like me watched the one hour broadcast of one NBA game a week and discovered their love for the game because of him.

[debiler]

@metsis:
Yep. Also, 64 is not a real bad rating.