A New Rosters Patch....!!!

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

Dweaver, you don't understand it. He may not be selling it but still it's not his.

You see, you have this dynasty of yours. What if I copied it and just changed the Font Color and then posted it like my own. How would you feel? Happy? I don't think so. Even if a thing makes the previous one better, you still have to give credit and ask permission to do that. The time Andrew has dedicated just to make roster then you're the one getting credits would make him feel bad. It's just a cheap shot of stealing, y'nah mean. We patchers of the community have been ripped off by chinese & russian (I believe) sites cause they ripped off our patches (with them being credited) and that doesn't make us feel good.

It's not about being a lawyer, it's about respect.

I understand your point but this community's purpose is to provide gamers with help. So if someone decides to give something to the public for FREE, and I stress the free part, then we should let the public decide if and how they use it. Believe me, I am from this Earth too and I understand the frustration that one must feel when his work is "undermined", but in this case, and especially recognizing doctor j's attitude in his posts, I think it is safe to let something like this pass... Nevertheless, this is my opinion, and after having witnessed numerous such cases in my line of work, it is my belief that the least important issues should be let to pass... I apologize if I caused undue frustration but I was voicing my opinion, just like everybody else. Keep up the good patching work, all of you.

[Matthew]

The only thing recognizable about doctor j's post is that he is a retard.

And sure, andrews roster pacth is free, but he is still the owner and it is copyrighted to him. He has full discretion as to how it used. This could have easily been avoided had doctor j just asked... its just manners. But I dont know why you continue to rave on with this, you're just repeating yourself.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

The only thing recognizable about doctor j's post is that he is a retard.

And sure, andrews roster pacth is free, but he is still the owner and it is copyrighted to him. He has full discretion as to how it used. This could have easily been avoided had doctor j just asked... its just manners. But I dont know why you continue to rave on with this, you're just repeating yourself.

As long as there are people in this forum who call others "retards" just by reading a few of their posts, you BET I'll be right here repeting myself. Case closed.

[Matthew]

Shut up, retard. You're not in court, and I have no respect for dickhead lawyers (if you are one, you're probably some wanker solicitor)

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

Shut up, retard. You're not in court, and I have no respect for dickhead lawyers (if you are one, you're probably some wanker solicitor)

Niiiceeee... Too bad you hate lawyers, with eloquence like that you could have been a good one!

[Andrew]

So if someone decides to give something to the public for FREE, and I stress the free part, then we should let the public decide if and how they use it.

but in this case, and especially recognizing doctor j's attitude in his posts, I think it is safe to let something like this pass...

And that's where I don't think you quite understand where I'm coming from. It's not so much a legal issue as a "patchmaker's code" kind of thing. I mean, as far as the legal aspect is concerned, free material is certainly protected by copyright. Consider some of the documents at GameFAQs.com. Websites have copied the documents and been shut down for it. I admit I'm neither a lawyer or someone with extensive knowledge of law, but it is my understanding that just because something on the Internet is free, doesn't necessarily mean you can use it however you want or make certain modifications...even if you don't intend on making money from it.

(I would also point out scripts such as news posting, the downloads script we use on the NLSC and forums such as phpBB as other examples of free things that have certain limitations when it comes to usage and modification.)

About letting it pass...well, if you're going to let one person do something, it's only fair to let everyone do it. And when it comes to patchmaking, that means anyone can take someone else's work, change it around a bit (or maybe not change it at all), slap their own name on it and take all the credit.

I know this may be coming off as extremely egotistical, but really, it's not about that. The NLSC roster gets thousands of downloads, and not nearly as many "Thank yous". That is something you just live with. I update the rosters for my own benefit, but I know that it helps out other people if I share those updates. That's the whole philosophy behind modding and patching. I'm not in this for ass kissing or acclaim, but it is nice to have your hard work acknowledged; especially when it's something all of us don't do often enough. It's nice to get credit for your effort.

When someone takes a mod and passes it off as their own, it really is quite unfair to the person who created it. It is quite frustrating to put a lot of time into a roster patch, have someone take it, change it around a bit, then get all the credit for it when you've done most of the work - creating players, changing a lot of ratings to begin with, adding new Legends, whatever.

And that goes for any patch. But obviously, sometimes it's in everyone's interest to team up or share resources. Common courtesy, which is a big part of the modding community, suggests that it's only fair and appropriate to ask permission before using someone else's work, in any capacity - even if it's just part of a bigger project that will contain your own original work.

I've been around the community a long time, and as Mikki alluded to, it has been a problem in the past. A big problem. Not just in recent times with the sites he mentioned, but pretty much since the beginning of the NBA Live online community. Tim and Lutz used to put watermarks in their roster updates so that if they were re-released by someone else, it could easily be identified.

What I'm saying is, I'm not the first or last person to be this protective of my work. You only have to look through some of the Announcements threads with the graphics patches - jersey textures and cyberface bheds in particular. We do stick together by not tolerating stolen work.

I'm usually not keen on letting folks use my roster patch as a base for their own because there's a lot of work originally, updating the rosters from the game's release with missing players, ratings corrections, etc. It really is a huge shortcut to take my rosters and make a few changes and the latest transactions, which is why I prefer to refuse permission until I'm ready to move onto the next Live, at which time I offer the patch to someone else to continue in my stead.

Above all, it's about asking first and giving credit where credit is due. That is how our modding community works. I understand where you're coming from, but I feel that you see my point of view as being egotistical and inappropriate, to which I say, it has been the way of this community for a long time, even before I was a part of it. If you're going to ask me to let an incident like this slide, you might as well tell that to every other patchmaker as well. And I'm sure you'll get a similar response.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

I said in my previous post, before the "retard" issues , that I understand your position and the way you feel about your hours of work being undermined. And trust me, I made no clear or hidden point that you were egotistical or anything similar. I have been around the web ever since its first steps and have participated in quite a number of forums, gaming ones or otherwise. All I was trying to point out is that sometimes, we should worry more about how the community can be served, rather than by who...

Let's say I want to make a roster patch and distribute it to whoever would have the inclination to use it. Now, I admit I like your rosters and use them with a little bit of tweaking here and there,just like everyone else. Now, if I think that I should share my adjustments with the community, at which level would you consider that i have used your rosters as a base? I mean , if I take every player and adjust his overall rating by 1? If I keep half the teams as they are and tweak the hell out of the other ones? If I just come up with something working on EA's original rosters that just so happens to resemble your rosters? I think the whole roster issue is rather different than the cyberface and shoe patches issue. The work one does adjusting mostly positions and numbers upon a give base is rather difficult to establish legal or ethical right upon. Creating a cyberface or new shoe, on the other hand, is an artistic endeavour mostly and thus easier categorizes as unique.

Anyway, I believe you are soft-spoken and reasonable, and have every right to defend your position, based on your experience of this gaming community. Maybe I speak out of turn, but when you work with legal rights issues most of your life and see that there are people out there who could rip your ear off for a shot at a justicial claim,like land property or inheritance issues, you kind of tend to develop a "prime importance - first serve" mentality.Then again, maybe it's just me.

PS. Sorry about the rant, and especially one in a language I do not possess so well.

[Andrew]

Let's say I want to make a roster patch and distribute it to whoever would have the inclination to use it. Now, I admit I like your rosters and use them with a little bit of tweaking here and there,just like everyone else. Now, if I think that I should share my adjustments with the community, at which level would you consider that i have used your rosters as a base? I mean , if I take every player and adjust his overall rating by 1? If I keep half the teams as they are and tweak the hell out of the other ones? If I just come up with something working on EA's original rosters that just so happens to resemble your rosters? I think the whole roster issue is rather different than the cyberface and shoe patches issue. The work one does adjusting mostly positions and numbers upon a give base is rather difficult to establish legal or ethical right upon. Creating a cyberface or new shoe, on the other hand, is an artistic endeavour mostly and thus easier categorizes as unique.

Your point is well taken. You are correct, roster patches don't require the same artistic ability as graphics patches, which in some respects doesn't make them quite as unique. With information taken from the boxscores and statistics, there are going to be similarities - all current roster updates are trying to achieve the same thing.

It's more about the creation of players - the number of players, the accuracy of the CAPs, the ratings - the manipulation of ratings and the extras. These are things that take a lot of time and effort when making a roster update from scratch, and as I said before it's a huge shortcut to bypass that part of the process.

About tweaking the ratings - it's really a case by case thing. In the past, I've granted permission for people who run online leagues to modify the ratings so they are more "online friendly" and then distribute them to the people within that league. If there are ratings people would like for me to fix, I'm happy to look into that.

But when it comes to distributing a brand new roster patch, as doctor j seemingly was intending to do, it's really something the patchmaker has to do by themselves from scratch unless they have permission to use someone else's work, again, not "legally" but due to community goodwill.

Anyway, I'm glad we were able to reach an understanding of sorts on this issue, I certainly see your point of view a lot clearer now and I feel that you understand my stance as well. Similar incidents, both recent and in years gone by make all of us patchers a little sensitive to them.

[debiler]

Well, maybe he just didn't know that he had to ask for permission and label the patch as "a tweaked version of Andrew's rosters". I mean, if it had been that way, you might have considered letting him distribute the patch in the first place, right? But imagine that he just didn't know... I don't think it's all that severe. Although I don't know his patch or the changes he made. I have been creating cyberface patches for live 2000, and one time i found my Jay Williams face on another website. Hey, that way it spreads around. It's ok for me. But I can understand how you feel about the issue, though.

[doctor j]

The only thing recognizable about doctor j's post is that he is a retard.

And sure, andrews roster pacth is free, but he is still the owner and it is copyrighted to him. He has full discretion as to how it used. This could have easily been avoided had doctor j just asked... its just manners. But I dont know why you continue to rave on with this, you're just repeating yourself.

you fu**ing retard if i wiil see one more curse i swear that i will come to your house and kick your ass יבן זונה תדבר יפה כי אני יזיין אותך יחתיכת הומו אוכל בתחת ואני מקווה שהבנת את זה!

that was in hebrew you fu**ing retard !

and about the patch !

i want to ask you andrew something how do you make ratings!?
cause i looked in the nba.com site and i have seen that you have some rating to change so i released my patch and i dont understand why u r hangry i didnt do with that nothing i ve hust changed the rating as they sould be!

end of story!

[[lob]-Shy]

DUDE, SUMONE JUST CLOSE THIS THREAD, WHATS THE POINT OF ALL THIS?, HE MADE A MISTAKE, HE'S NOT GONNA DO IT AGAIN.....END THIS

[doctor j]

OK

hes never sould open that i have just come home from school and i ve saw that crap!

i dont want to see it anymore casue i though this is agood forum but all i get is
shit!

[[lob]-Shy]

OK

hes never sould open that i have just come home from school and i ve saw that crap!

i dont want to see it anymore casue i though this is agood forum but all i get is
shit!

dont worry bout it, just work hard, come out with sumthing u can actually call your own and this is all be over and everyone will be able to appreciate the work u've done....look at me, nobody cares what i did last year anymore....i made up for it, i'm helping in the forums now, and its all good.

[doctor j]

but look i want to create but i dont know how and all the guides here suck!
i dont understant what to do their!!!

so if somebody can help me but real help not some got deam link to some stupied guide!

i would like to talk in icq if somebody got please!

[Matthew]

OK

hes never sould open that i have just come home from school and i ve saw that crap!

i dont want to see it anymore casue i though this is agood forum but all i get is
shit!

Becuase you're dumb as dogshit, you dont have a clue what the English language is all about, so you probably cant even understand what I'm typing here. Seriously, looking at your posts, a kid in kindergarten is more legible.

You stupid cunt

[Strike Freedom]

do the commentators announce the new players by their names or ..by numbers, which is very annoying.. if they kept saying "number xx..."

[Username123]

TheCambyManVol3, Be nice. He is new around here.

[[lob]-Shy]

do the commentators announce the new players by their names or ..by numbers, which is very annoying.. if they kept saying "number xx..."

why are u saying this is here?

[[lob]-Shy]

TheCambyManVol3, Be nice. He is new around here.

i agree, let it go man, he didnt take your rosters

[Andrew]

i want to ask you andrew something how do you make ratings!?
cause i looked in the nba.com site and i have seen that you have some rating to change so i released my patch and i dont understand why u r hangry i didnt do with that nothing i ve hust changed the rating as they sould be!

end of story!

No, you did do something wrong. Listen carefully: In our modding community, it is common courtesy to ask permission before you use someone's work. I put a hell of a lot of work into that roster patch, creating players and whatnot.

Make your own patch, from the originals, just like the rest of us do, instead of taking other people's work, without their permission, and passing it off as your own! That is what you have done wrong.

Sorry, but I'm at the end of my patience. If you pursue this matter, you're out.