How good would Charles Barkley be in modern-day NBA?

[air gordon]

So Andrew would you say the overlooked is dependent on who is having the conversation?

I agree he's not above the aforementioned...the degree of how far back 4 is from 3, I'll let the sophisticates Duke it out

[shadowgrin]

phpBB [video]

[Sauru]

topic about barkley quickly turned into a david robinson debate

[Dee4Three]

phpBB [video]

He should also be remembered for this. Nobody talks about it, underrated.

[Andrew]

Still love that Ewing commercial.

So Andrew would you say the overlooked is dependent on who is having the conversation?

Absolutely. Any player can feasibly be underrated by an individual onlooker who isn't willing to give them their due. There's also the matter of common sentiment, though. I think Dee's summed up what I was trying to say:

Underrated can mean that a player is seldom or never brought up in conversations about players in his position, or routinely listed low on lists, or is not talked about appropriately for what he was good or great at.

That does seem to happen with Ewing, in part due to the other great players at centre who were in the league at the time, and probably also due to his Knicks' inability to get past Jordan's Bulls.

[NovU]

Ewing is a second tier big, it's insulting to Robinson. Yet some of you guys act surprised why I believe Robinson is underrated, this is almost funny. Good one.

NovU said referring to David Robinson over Hakeem
He also had better stats

This is not entirely true. Not only does Hakeem win on career averages of PPG, RPG, SPG, and BPG (Tied on APG), but his single season bests also beat Robinson in RPG, SPG and BPG. Robinson had great stats, so did Hakeem. But Robinson does not have better stats.

It is true because RPG SPG BPG are raw numbers and using those as ultimate measure is a joke that even forum noobs don't do it. AI averaged more pts than LBJ in a single season, does that make him a better player or means had better stats, this logic sucks, you should know better.

Have you heard of ORtg, PER, USG, WIN SHARE, VORP, etc. Robinson put up better stats by all means.

[Dee4Three]

Raw stats when they played the exact same minutes per game in the regular season? That absolutely counts.

And again, raw stats is exactly what they got when they were on the floor.

We've had this discussion before, I'm not getting into the advanced stats talk with you again. Also, are you discounting what Hakeem did in comparison to Robinson in the post season against eachother? Not as many games, but that wasn't even close.

NovU, how many games have you physically watched this season?

I'm not even going to get into a LeBron vs Iverson talk. Let's not touch that one.

[air gordon]

Interesting take andrew. To me it's similar to a hole that keeps on getting deeper. Hakeem and co are great. So is Ewing but what about the guy as good or close to Ewing? Why isn't that guy getting his due? And the next guy and so forth

We had a discussion about Lillard being underrated. I couldn't agree because there are a lot great pgs in this era. You couldn't put him ahead of wall, Westbrook, curry, a healthy cp3, IT

There's no shame in him not beating them out. And also there's Lowry, Irving, conley

[NovU]

NovU, how many games have you physically watched this season?

I'm not even going to get into a LeBron vs Iverson talk. Let's not touch that one.

joke character?

[Dee4Three]

I watched the Sixers game against the Lakers last night.

Anybody that says that David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, or Patrick Ewing would be LESS effective in todays NBA... you have to be kidding me.

Embiid is very good, and he was in single coverage all night, being posted up in the low and high post a lot. Slower with his feet than all three of the names above (Patrick Ewing and Embiid may be close foot speed wise), he still got his with moves in the low and high post. Yes it was against the Lakers, but he proves that no matter who he faces in the now NBA that he can get his. And a lot of his work is done in the post.

LOL to Julius Randle guarding Ewing, Robinson or Olajuwon in the post.

The post game is far from dead, it's just that Joel is a enormous talent that actually can have a high success rate in that position (Which doesn't exist as much in the now NBA). Now imagine the speed, quickness, athletic ability of a David Robinson operating against that Lakers team, or any other bigs in the league... jesus that would be scary. He would be even better and more effective now.

Shadowgrin mentioned Ben Simmons/Magic Johnson earlier. I used Rondo as an example in the past. Magic would be tearing up the league with his speed, quickness and athleticism in the now NBA, and even more with the floor spacing. Simmons is putting up fantastic numbers, literally not even shooting from the outside (Keep in mind, the couple years before he retired Magic was a damn good 3 point shooter). No chance Magic isn't even better in the now NBA.

I watched the Blazers game after vs the Magic. Nurkic and Vucevic had ample opportunities one on one in the post, they are just not as good as Embiid. A lot of ISO ball in the high post, low post, and on the perimeter during the game.

[hova-]

I watched the Sixers game against the Lakers last night.

Anybody that says that David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, or Patrick Ewing would be LESS effective in todays NBA... you have to be kidding me.

Embiid is very good, and he was in single coverage all night, being posted up in the low and high post a lot. Slower with his feet than all three of the names above (Patrick Ewing and Embiid may be close foot speed wise), he still got his with moves in the low and high post. Yes it was against the Lakers, but he proves that no matter who he faces in the now NBA that he can get his. And a lot of his work is done in the post.

LOL to Julius Randle guarding Ewing, Robinson or Olajuwon in the post.

As you stated, the Lakers had no one to defend Embiid. Lopez is such a whack defender, Randle as well - even if he guards somebody his size. Still I think Robinson, Olajuwon and Ewing would be excellent as they all have the ability to knock down shots from the outside - their other skills are legendary anyway and would still fit in todays game.

Keep in mind, the couple years before he retired Magic was a damn good 3 point shooter).

No, that is just not right. One season with 38 percent does not really qualify for being a "damn good" three point shooter.

Looking through the stats I also found out that Magic was a turnover machine like other "stars" are nowadays. I always though he separated himself from that being a great passer with a good TO/A ratio. But 4.6 in his worst year ... wow. Which led me to the stat that James Harden had 5.6 TOPG in 2016/17. WTF? Oh and Jason Kidd once had 14 TOs in one game ....

[Dee4Three]

I consider 38% pretty good, Ray Allen in 07-08 shot 39%. Pretty sure you didn't want to give Ray Allen an open three. The average 3P% for the league last year was .358%, so he would be considered an above average 3 point shooter with that percentage in todays NBA.

Ben Simmons has currently hit 0 three's this season. It's an element of his game he may develop (In fact, I am sure he will over time). But Magic's ability to do that, along with his other skills would be very difficult to stop in todays league, as it was back when he played.

[hova-]

I consider 38% pretty good, Ray Allen in 07-08 shot 39%. Pretty sure you didn't want to give Ray Allen an open three. The average 3P% for the league last year was .358%, so he would be considered an above average 3 point shooter with that percentage in todays NBA.

That is why I say one season with 38% does not qualify. That is why I mention the 38%, because they are very good. But only one season is not enough. In his three seasons he actually took threes he was 38%, 32% and 31%. So he does not cut the average 35%.

He surely could have improved that stroke, I am just going for the stats.

[Dee4Three]

Correct, but I'm saying he could shoot them. It was something else in his arsenal. Simmons cant... yet.

Magic shot a good percentage in 95-96, but you can't count it the same because of the moved in line.

Again, I am sure Simmons shoots them in time. He is really talented. I'm impressed with his patience on offense.

[hova-]

I agree. His shot does look broken (unlike of other hyped rookies ...).

Griffin is one of the best examples. His shot got better each season and now the three point stroke looks really solid.

[Dee4Three]

I agree. His shot does look broken (unlike of other hyped rookies ...).

Griffin is one of the best examples. His shot got better each season and now the three point stroke looks really solid.

Exactly. And look at Aaron Gordon, his shot looks amazing this year. Not only that he has confidence, but his mechanics.

I doubt he will be at 50% from three by Seasons end, but he certainly looks like he will shoot above 40% barring a catastrophic collapse. His overall game looks different, he's gotten faster and looks to have worked on his ball handling.

He's now not just a PF, he can excel at the quick forward spot as well.

[hova-]

I was watching a vid of how Gordon changed his mechanics. He added a simple two feet hop before the release and it looks way more fluid. It's amazing how you can change your shot.

Same goes for Andre Drummonds free throws. Over 70%

[Dee4Three]

I was watching a vid of how Gordon changed his mechanics. He added a simple two feet hop before the release and it looks way more fluid. It's amazing how you can change your shot.

Same goes for Andre Drummonds free throws. Over 70%

It makes a huge difference for Detroit. They can keep him on the floor at the end of games, and hack a Drummond can't be used if he's shooting that well.

Good stuff.

[hova-]

I was watching a vid of how Gordon changed his mechanics. He added a simple two feet hop before the release and it looks way more fluid. It's amazing how you can change your shot.

Same goes for Andre Drummonds free throws. Over 70%

It makes a huge difference for Detroit. They can keep him on the floor at the end of games, and hack a Drummond can't be used if he's shooting that well.

Good stuff.

The fact that he hits them in late game situations as well is really a huge leap. Just look at Shaq, Dwight and other bigs (also Wilt) and how they were not able to change their shot (although some of them maybe did not show enough comittment). It means that he has also been able to change his mental state when heading to the line. He must be so confident right now that he got rid of this huge weakness and hopefully can sustain it.

[[Q]]

I remember shaq hired a coach to work on it one year and I think he got up over 60%

[Andrew]

"I make 'em when I need to."

[shadowgrin]

To be fair to Shaq his FT% in clutch situations were higher than his season % iirc.

Looking through the stats I also found out that Magic was a turnover machine like other "stars" are nowadays. I always though he separated himself from that being a great passer with a good TO/A ratio. But 4.6 in his worst year ... wow. Which led me to the stat that James Harden had 5.6 TOPG in 2016/17. WTF? Oh and Jason Kidd once had 14 TOs in one game ....

LIES.
Magic's TOV% was similar or even lower compared to Nash and Stockton. Nets Kidd had lower than them three.

Reason why Magic's TOPG looks worse compared to Stockton and Nash is the Showtime Lakers (and even opponents) ran more. More possessions, more plays, more chances of committing turnovers.

Magic's highest APG in a season that also had his worst TOPG, the Lakers had a pace of 103.
None of Nash's Suns team even had more than 96 pace.
Highest pace a team in Kidd's career ever had was 95.
Stockton's worst TOPG Jazz had 98 pace, his two best seasons with 14 APG Jazz had 96 pace.
Harden's madness last season, Rockets had 100 pace. His TOV% was similar to Stockton's TOV% in the latter's best APG season.

[Andrew]

Shaq's claim wasn't entirely accurate, but his percentage did go up sometimes.

As for Magic, I believe he also holds the dubious distinction of having the most turnovers in a single Playoff game, with a mark that's in double digits. I feel you've got to be a great player to notch a record like that. Otherwise, there's no way you've got the ball in your hands that much, or indeed, are staying in the game, after the sixth or seventh turnover.

[shadowgrin]

Found the game. It was in his rookie year too and a Finals game and they still won. Pretty impressive considering the context.

[Andrew]

Quadruple-double...of sorts...