2017 NBA Finals: Warriors vs. Cavs part 3

[Dee4Three]

I am seriously suspecting if you are seriously a moron.

Even college players go up and down the floor at great pace. Highlights are just highlights. They are highlighted plays which selectively chooses from visually pleasing plays. As many of those plays exists, there are more flawed and failed plays.

So you wanna draw an entire picture based on a few highlighted plays?


Never have I seen anyone using youtube vids as evidence at this massive scale, I am seriously in shock. May I ask you what your IQ score was? Answer it, this is important.

A few highlights... you can watch any game of Magic and see that he can get up and down the floor VERY well, and would be fine. A few highlights? Do you want full games so you can see him get up and down the floor and be physical, to prove that he could keep up in todays game with it's pace and length? By saying a few highlights, you are stating that you have no idea how he played/moved in real life, as in, I question if you know anything about Magic Johnson or the era he played in. An entire picture on a few plays? You are coming at me for posting a video of a chubby Magic showing great pace, but not on the person stating that Magic is too slow for the NBA now? And that Hakeem would be decent? Or that Bird and Peja and Barkley and Millsap would have the same impact because they are similar athletically?

Is that selective hearing/viewing? I have a low IQ, and you are insulting me, but those claims above were made?

NovU, you really need to step back and think for a second. You are not making any sense whatsoever.

[NovU]

I do believe Magic would be great in today's league.

Highlights and vids are not proof. I could do your stupid shit too and post Jamal Crawford's highlights to claim he would have raped Jordan's era, forgetting games were played in entirely different context with different philosophy, rules, system, players, etc.

[Dee4Three]

I do believe Magic would be great in today's league.

Highlights and vids are not proof. I could do your stupid shit too and post Jamal Crawford's highlights to claim he would have raped Jordan's era, forgetting games were played in entirely different context with different philosophy, rules, system, players, etc.

So you are arguing for the sake of arguing, because you actually agree with me about Magic.

I was showing he could keep up with the videos, and you knew he could, so the videos weren't for you.

[NovU]

I do not agree with your assessment and how you come to conclusion, it's nonsensical rage with non factual hypocrisy. While I think Magic would be great, I know he wouldn't be the best that he was in today's league.

I do kinda agree with hova. He has a point in that players of today are generally have grown to be better equipped/trained than previous era hence better physical specs from larger talent pool. Same was the case transitioning from Wilt's era to Jordan's. That has to count for something, though how much effect it'd make is debatable.

[air gordon]

Maybe I'm generalizing here- is the NBA the only professional sport where a lot of the ex players still claim in their time the game was better/ we were better athletes?!

There are some outliers like Jim Brown, wilt when he was still alive, or a lot of former baseball players now turned broadcasters still talking down on the current game

Again perhaps generalizing, a lot of previous era play involves non sport play that was not regulated-. Holding, fouling, hitting players with intention to hurt, etc

To me it seems the ex NBA players complaining are insecure (and have too much pride) to admit the current era/athletes are a step up

[Dee4Three]

Maybe I'm generalizing here- is the NBA the only professional sport where a lot of the ex players still claim in their time the game was better/ we were better athletes?!

There are some outliers like Jim Brown, wilt when he was still alive, or a lot of former baseball players now turned broadcasters still talking down on the current game

Again perhaps generalizing, a lot of previous era play involves non sport play that was not regulated-. Holding, fouling, hitting players with intention to hurt, etc

To me it seems the ex NBA players complaining are insecure (and have too much pride) to admit the current era/athletes are a step up

If I was an ex player, and I saw that Tom Haberstroh, Nick Wright, Stephan A Smith, Skip Bayless and big networks like ESPN, Fox Sports etc were comparing constantly, and I had any pride at all, or I was asked those questions (Like how the comments actually start most of the time), I would be honest and say how I feel as well.

Again perhaps generalizing, a lot of previous era play involves non sport play that was not regulated-. Holding, fouling, hitting players with intention to hurt, etc

It was more physical, but it doesn't take away from what the players could do on the floor.

[air gordon]

Physical play doesn't limit? You could legally hand check a player on defense. Flagrant fouls were not called. Players were scared to go into the lane because of the liberties the defense was given. No vids necessary. We can agree on this

[NovU]

Though the defense was rougher, there were more fouls called and more trips to the line meaning referees were more whistle happy. My take on this is that the league wanted a games to be faster as no fans wanted to stay around for 4 hours to watch players standing around and doing nothing.

Any thoughts?

[Dee4Three]

Physical play doesn't limit? You could legally hand check a player on defense. Flagrant fouls were not called. Players were scared to go into the lane because of the liberties the defense was given. No vids necessary. We can agree on this

I'm saying those players were still amazing, and it didn't interrupt how good they were. I think it's a testament to how good they still were through all of that.

[Dee4Three]

Though the defense was rougher, there were more fouls called and more trips to the line meaning referees were more whistle happy. My take on this is that the league wanted a games to be faster as no fans wanted to stay around for 4 hours to watch players standing around and doing nothing.

Any thoughts?

I agree the league wanted the game to be faster, with less interruption. I'm saying that it doesn't take anything away from the greatness and abilities of the past greats, if anything, it helps the case. As they were able to excel through that.

[NovU]

Not sure how u came to dat conclusion. Free throws is a good thing.

I am implying playing style is different from then because of game being whistled differently. How that impacts the game is up for discussion.

[Dee4Three]

I have a question for you guys, this isn't about past and present.

Do you guys agree that it seems a bulk of the players are looking for the easy way out (bobbing head back on drives, constantly complaining for fouls, flopping, locking arms up with the defender to sell a foul by chucking the ball at the hoop). Do you see it like I do, that it completely hurts the flow of the game. The Thunder/Rockets series is a great example. I had to go for a drive after a couple of the games because it irratated me so much.for example, James Harden and Chris Paul... they don't need to do that stuff, they are very good basketball players, do you find yourself frustrated watching them?

Do you guys see that more players in general don't want to take the challenge of going at the best, that they are looking to play with the best, and that it hurts the balance of the league?

Do you feel sometimes when you watch the NBA, that certain teams (a decent amount) don't have an identity, or the identity is the same or almost the same as many other teams?

This isn't about past and present, there are no "ah hah!" Moments after this. I am just asking what you guys think.

I find myself watching games, and getting frustrated with the play styles/demeanors/flow etc.

Any thoughts?

[air gordon]

Though the defense was rougher, there were more fouls called and more trips to the line meaning referees were more whistle happy. My take on this is that the league wanted a games to be faster as no fans wanted to stay around for 4 hours to watch players standing around and doing nothing.

Any thoughts?

Could play a factor. I remember reading about Stern's forward thinking about globalizing the game, more TV broadcasts, "cleaning up" the game (regarding drug use)

I wonder at what point did stern decide in his mind to call off this tough physical style? I don't know off hand of how long broadcasts were or amount of ft's in the 80-90's. I'm assuming TV ratings were climbing during the bird magic era and at an all time high during the Bulls 1st run

I would venture a guess these TV timeouts have made the national games the same length if not longer.

[Dee4Three]

Though the defense was rougher, there were more fouls called and more trips to the line meaning referees were more whistle happy. My take on this is that the league wanted a games to be faster as no fans wanted to stay around for 4 hours to watch players standing around and doing nothing.

Any thoughts?

Could play a factor. I remember reading about Stern's forward thinking about globalizing the game, more TV broadcasts, "cleaning up" the game (regarding drug use)

I wonder at what point did stern decide in his mind to call off this tough physical style? I don't know off hand of how long broadcasts were or amount of ft's in the 80-90's. I'm assuming TV ratings were climbing during the bird magic era and at an all time high during the Bulls 1st run

I would venture a guess these TV timeouts have made the national games the same length if not longer.

I'd be curious to know the exact year as well.

They shortened the 3 point line in the mid 90's in order to drive excitement for the league. It only lasted a few years

[air gordon]

Are players backing away from challenges??

It's a double edge sword. If someone is using his strength to get to the basket, it's considered less skill and criticized as bully ball

Perimeter players are allowed to check players on pick and rolls (not sure when this started being legal again). It's a smart counter move by the offense. Some may see as free throw hunting or whatever. Im surprised this tactic just started happening in this era

We're rarely seeing players like Wade attacking the basket regularly. Does it mean they are not accepting the challenge or are they playing smart and preserving themselves for a game, series, etc!?

[Dee4Three]

Are players backing away from challenges??

It's a double edge sword. If someone is using his strength to get to the basket, it's considered less skill and criticized as bully ball

Perimeter players are allowed to check players on pick and rolls (not sure when this started being legal again). It's a smart counter move by the offense. Some may see as free throw hunting or whatever. Im surprised this tactic just started happening in this era

We're rarely seeing players like Wade attacking the basket regularly. Does it mean they are not accepting the challenge or are they playing smart and preserving themselves for a game, series, etc!?

Good questions.

I honestly do feel like they were allowing more physical play down low this year, and even a bit more tight D on the perimeter, which was nice. It was also nice that they allowed players to show a little bit more animation this year (a player wouldn't get a T for simply running to the other side of the court in disbelief). So those things were nice.

I'm more getting at all the bobbing head, forced arm locking on threes, etc. Do you find yourself going "Jesus christ guys, just play", like does it hurt your viewing as much as mine.

[Dee4Three]

Like this. When you see him do this stuff all the time, do you get as frustrated as I do, do you agree that these should be offensive fouls if he's using his arm to lock up the defenders?

phpBB [video]

This is what he does all the time on threes. He is chucking the ball towards the hoop, locking his arms in the defenders in a non natural shooting motion. When you see Harden, Lou Williams etc doing this stuff, do you get frustrated?

phpBB [video]

Like how do you guys think these plays should be called? No calls? Offensive fouls? Called as they are?

[hova-]

Dude,

I did NOT compare Peja and Bird. You brought that up. I said that Peja is a shooter who only benefited from being around one of the best teams ever not to make the finals.

I DID say that I think Bird was fragile, especially in his older years. And I HAVE doubts that he could then dominate like he did nowadays. You showed videos why you don't think so, it's ok. When I watch footage of Bird I love him. When I read about his trash talk I seriously get motivated to go out and just ball hard. Don't you just get me wrong. I love the legends. But I think the game has evolved and I ASSUME (ASSSSSSUMMMME!!!!) that some of these players would not have the same impact.

I DID say Magic might be too slow. He is a 6-9 PG which is just not common nowadays. He would have problems to get around screens (considering he would not be able to bang through the screen without getting called for a foul) and a step slow against smaller guards. Hell, he even had that problem in his prime but the Lakers had guys like Scott and Cooper to do the job.

I DID say Hakeem would be decent. And I guess I used the wrong adjective (sry, fucking german). I don't doubt Hakeem's skillset. He is one of the best ever. And he has the skill to do it today, although his style is not favored anymore. Especially the turnaround post jumper is the best weapon you can have in any era. He has it. But I ASSUME that his blocking numbers might be lower nowadays. The style has changed, more fouls, more floaters less hand check makes it tougher for the help defender not to foul IMHO.

I DID NOT MENTION David Robinson. He was a beast. The picture says it all. Same goes for some guys like Nate Thurmond. But when you go to baksetballreference and look at the weight of the players back then as well as view some pictures you will see that there very also many many untrained guys. It's my opinion that today there is a higher level of standard the teams require. It's a thesis though.

ABOUT BARKLEY AND MILLSAP: you did not read MY POINT. My point is that Barkley was specimen back then, whilst today his athleticism would be upper average (his prime maybe a bit better, his non prime days too fat I guess). That means the COMPETITION is harder. Not the STAR PLAYERS are worse, but the competition is harder.

You don't think that's true, that's a point, ok.

AND ABOUT DIRK: dont get me pissed off. I just told you what coaches wanted to do with him and that he had luck there were special coaches. In fact I am from Germany and I think I have more knowledge of how basketball is here. The level is low. It's more than a wonder that there is a german Finals MVP. Its a fucking joke to be honest because basketball is played less than womens bowling (organized ball, not streetball)

[Dee4Three]

Dude,

I did NOT compare Peja and Bird. You brought that up. I said that Peja is a shooter who only benefited from being around one of the best teams ever not to make the finals.

I DID say that I think Bird was fragile, especially in his older years. And I HAVE doubts that he could then dominate like he did nowadays. You showed videos why you don't think so, it's ok. When I watch footage of Bird I love him. When I read about his trash talk I seriously get motivated to go out and just ball hard. Don't you just get me wrong. I love the legends. But I think the game has evolved and I ASSUME (ASSSSSSUMMMME!!!!) that some of these players would not have the same impact.

I DID say Magic might be too slow. He is a 6-9 PG which is just not common nowadays. He would have problems to get around screens (considering he would not be able to bang through the screen without getting called for a foul) and a step slow against smaller guards. Hell, he even had that problem in his prime but the Lakers had guys like Scott and Cooper to do the job.

I DID say Hakeem would be decent. And I guess I used the wrong adjective (sry, fucking german). I don't doubt Hakeem's skillset. He is one of the best ever. And he has the skill to do it today, although his style is not favored anymore. Especially the turnaround post jumper is the best weapon you can have in any era. He has it. But I ASSUME that his blocking numbers might be lower nowadays. The style has changed, more fouls, more floaters less hand check makes it tougher for the help defender not to foul IMHO.

I DID NOT MENTION David Robinson. He was a beast. The picture says it all. Same goes for some guys like Nate Thurmond. But when you go to baksetballreference and look at the weight of the players back then as well as view some pictures you will see that there very also many many untrained guys. It's my opinion that today there is a higher level of standard the teams require. It's a thesis though.

ABOUT BARKLEY AND MILLSAP: you did not read MY POINT. My point is that Barkley was specimen back then, whilst today his athleticism would be upper average (his prime maybe a bit better, his non prime days too fat I guess). That means the COMPETITION is harder. Not the STAR PLAYERS are worse, but the competition is harder.

You don't think that's true, that's a point, ok.

AND ABOUT DIRK: dont get me pissed off. I just told you what coaches wanted to do with him and that he had luck there were special coaches. In fact I am from Germany and I think I have more knowledge of how basketball is here. The level is low. It's more than a wonder that there is a german Finals MVP. Its a fucking joke to be honest because basketball is played less than womens bowling (organized ball, not streetball)

Thank you for expanding more. I disagree with many of your points above, but we have already gone over them. You seem like a good guy.

However, truce. This topic has been a good escape over the last few days for me. And I appreciate you going along with it for as long as we did.

So cheers.

[hova-]

I have a question for you guys, this isn't about past and present.

Do you guys agree that it seems a bulk of the players are looking for the easy way out (bobbing head back on drives, constantly complaining for fouls, flopping, locking arms up with the defender to sell a foul by chucking the ball at the hoop). Do you see it like I do, that it completely hurts the flow of the game. The Thunder/Rockets series is a great example. I had to go for a drive after a couple of the games because it irratated me so much.for example, James Harden and Chris Paul... they don't need to do that stuff, they are very good basketball players, do you find yourself frustrated watching them?

Do you guys see that more players in general don't want to take the challenge of going at the best, that they are looking to play with the best, and that it hurts the balance of the league?

Do you feel sometimes when you watch the NBA, that certain teams (a decent amount) don't have an identity, or the identity is the same or almost the same as many other teams?

This isn't about past and present, there are no "ah hah!" Moments after this. I am just asking what you guys think.

I find myself watching games, and getting frustrated with the play styles/demeanors/flow etc.

Any thoughts?

I think that most of these players you brought up are already used to getting these calls and once you master how to draw these fouls and kind of rely on it, you will do it over and over again and even complain about non-calls.

I also think that the "going against the best" stuff is a bit like what Durant did, what LBJ did. It does not seem to be as important to do it by themselves with the team that drafted them. Players are friends and stay in touch all the time. The last few years have been really bad because some teams more and more seem to tank or play some sort of try-out seasons. This leads to dysfunctional teams that have good individual players but just cannot get things together (like the Knicks). This is btw something were I give the 80ies and 90ies an edge. I think the team spirit was better these days. I just doubt the individual dominance of some players would be the same.

As I stated a few days ago I am really frustrated by the shot making in today's game. Some of the threes the Warriors and also the Cavs are taking and making are shots that older guys (I consider us older) would never have taken. You feel like "this was good defense" and then the shot hits nothing but net. That frustrates me a lot

[Dee4Three]

The tanking is so obvious... it's frustrating to watch.

And yeah, these guys depend on those plays... but it totally ruins the flow of the game, and the way it's officiating is wrong. For example, a shooter jumping SIDEWAY into a defender who is jumping passed them, 99% of the time they call the foul on the defender, even the the offensive player is initiating the contact. Paul Pierce used to do it all the time, and even as a Celtics fan... it really bugged me. Westbrook did it a couple times in the postseason, and James Harden/Chris Paul/Lou Williams do it all the time. That has to be cleaned up. Just like the Harden video above, using his off arm to tie the defenders arm in his and flailing... and getting the call every time.

They have to clean it up somehow. If they cleaned that up, and started calling It right, these players would shine brighter. I think we would see more of what they could do in an actual basketball sense.

Btw, props for the love for Dirk... I am a huge Dirk guy.

[hova-]

They should never call a foul on leaning into somebody. It's okay if you get the defender in the air with a pumpfake and you go straight up after. If there's contact, then its a foul.

BUT: the coming around a screen and bumping in the defender, going up for the shot and then getting to the line three times is ridiculous. I hate it.

Everybody who does not like Dirk does not like fundamental basketball. I mean he never gave anybody offcourt reasons for not liking him, so the only thing I could imagine is that people like dunks more then jump shooting.

Calling him soft - I never understood that. Is LeBron harder just because his body allows him to drive easier? I mean there are some players I consider very very tough, like Kobe and in his earlier days also Wade (he took a lot of beating), but apart from these few guys I think Dirk is as tough as it gets.

And one thing that is really really underestimated about the midrange game: when the game is on the line, superstars just don't get easy shots. They will get doubled or fouled or haunted when driving. So having a mid-range guy and a free throw shooter is so unbelievably valuable.

[Dee4Three]

They should never call a foul on leaning into somebody. It's okay if you get the defender in the air with a pumpfake and you go straight up after. If there's contact, then its a foul.

BUT: the coming around a screen and bumping in the defender, going up for the shot and then getting to the line three times is ridiculous. I hate it.

Everybody who does not like Dirk does not like fundamental basketball. I mean he never gave anybody offcourt reasons for not liking him, so the only thing I could imagine is that people like dunks more then jump shooting.

Calling him soft - I never understood that. Is LeBron harder just because his body allows him to drive easier? I mean there are some players I consider very very tough, like Kobe and in his earlier days also Wade (he took a lot of beating), but apart from these few guys I think Dirk is as tough as it gets.

And one thing that is really really underestimated about the midrange game: when the game is on the line, superstars just don't get easy shots. They will get doubled or fouled or haunted when driving. So having a mid-range guy and a free throw shooter is so unbelievably valuable.

Dirk took a beating night in and night out, I agree Dirk is tough as nails.

I think that pull up mid-range (Derozen does it) is huge, to be able to hard drive one way and pull up from 10-15 feet. In most buzzer shots, I see a heavily contested three, a three in general, or a hard drive into other defenders. The mid-range game is a lost art... unfortunately. Paul Pierce was another one who used that mid-range game right.

I love watching Klay Thompson sometimes, because he will utilize the mid-range game, either by stepping around his defender after a pump fake, or taking on a mismatch, or in the high post. He actively looks for that shot.

[shadowgrin]

That said, Hakeem's stock would more than likely to take a bigger hit that David Robinson's if he played today because of bigger emphasis in his post up skillset.

I think prime Olajuwon would still be good today, he's not someone to rely on in a sprint but he's still agile for a big, agile enough to bamboozle David Robinson.
Hakeem's post game was definitely better than Cousins' or Blake Griffin's and his midrange game was more reliable than the latter.

But when you go to baksetballreference and look at the weight of the players back then as well as view some pictures you will see that there very also many many untrained guys.

Don't trust the weight listed in b-r. It's usually their rookie weight, just look at Jordan being listed as 195 when his playing weight at his prime was 216. Also, there's no way Moses Malone was 215 in his prime as listed in b-r.

It's not b-r's fault, it's their source/s. Even the NBA doesn't update height and weight unless the player's team submits new info, that's why old data like height and weight usually stays the same.

really really underestimated about the midrange

This.
An efficient midrange game is backed by analytics! The Spurs knew this that's why they had no problem giving Aldridge a max contract. Same Spurs that valued corner threes (because of analytics!) before THREEZ were cool in the NBA.

[Dee4Three]

That said, Hakeem's stock would more than likely to take a bigger hit that David Robinson's if he played today because of bigger emphasis in his post up skillset.

I think prime Olajuwon would still be good today, he's not someone to rely on in a sprint but he's still agile for a big, agile enough to bamboozle David Robinson.
Hakeem's post game was definitely better than Cousins' or Blake Griffin's and his midrange game was more reliable than the latter.

But when you go to baksetballreference and look at the weight of the players back then as well as view some pictures you will see that there very also many many untrained guys.

Don't trust the weight listed in b-r. It's usually their rookie weight, just look at Jordan being listed as 195 when his playing weight at his prime was 216. Also, there's no way Moses Malone was 215 in his prime as listed in b-r.

It's not b-r's fault, it's their source/s. Even the NBA doesn't update height and weight unless the player's team submits new info, that's why old data like height and weight usually stays the same.

really really underestimated about the midrange

This.
An efficient midrange game is backed by analytics! The Spurs knew this that's why they had no problem giving Aldridge a max contract. Same Spurs that valued corner threes (because of analytics!) before THREEZ were cool in the NBA.

I agree.

Btw, LOL to Moses being 215lbs.