This is why I have little to no faith in the younger crowd....

[Dee4Three]

So again, numbers wise Jordan, Bird, and Lebron all have good numbers.

Basketball player wise, Lebron doesn't hold a candle to either of them in my opinion. Watching all 3 of them play, Lebron is the easy out for me.

[NovU]

Mere raw stats comparison is stupid and meaningless.

This is both players at age 30, Bird had a bad back at the time, and look at his numbers.

He was in the midst of his prime. 28 to 31 was best years for Bird. And LBJ at 30 was the worst since rookie year. He's been better in last 2 seasons. Might be due to being back in shitty city.

That's the thing. Cheap pick and choose game is needed to make a case for Bird. It can deceive fools, don't fall for it.

I don't think I'm touching Bird to LBJ discussion. That's for another time.

I'm talking about Jordan's footwork, his ability to score whenever he wants to, at will, and every way imaginable. Him being far more of a competitor (Not crying to the refs, not selling fouls constantly, not accusing opponents of being to physical) overcoming obstacles instead of trying to get around them.

Let me explain this to you, young grasshopper.

There is a reason why the term "Jordan Treatment" exists even to this day. Wade, Harden, and Kobe all got joked on about it.

Superstar treatment did exist prior to Jordan era. No need to say but players like Bird, Magic, Kareem, they all were beneficiaries. However it tended to even out at the end as stars from each team got superstar treatment. One day the league decided to change things around and make Jordan invincible thus the term "Jordan Treatment" coming to an existence and swaying every game in Jordan's favor. Sure he earned a lot of calls but a lot of them were manufactured by the league just as any other superstars today.

Also consider this, perhaps your real man Jordan has contributed to league becoming soft. Consider rule changes to soften up Bad Boys because Jordan was constantly whining about their defense to Stern and media.

[Dee4Three]

That's the thing. Cheap pick and choose game is needed to make a case for Bird. It can deceive fools, don't fall for it.

My comments about how Bird is a better basketball player than James were laid out many posts ago, stats were asked for, so I supplied career and a single season where they were the same age. Lebron is not even close to the basketball player Bird was, we don't need to have this discussion anymore, you are correct about that.

Let me explain this to you, young grasshopper.

Is this seriously how you talk in real life? Is this how you communicate? Its demeaning, and insulting. It's very immature.


In regards to Jordan, again, he went through the obstacles. He overcame them. His game was poetry in motion, throughout his whole career. I have already given the reasons why James doesn't hold a candle to them, and again, I stick by them.

[Dee4Three]

Heres your GOAT

phpBB [video]

phpBB [video]

phpBB [video]

[Dee4Three]

Heres the best small forward of all time

phpBB [video]

Here is the best player of all time

phpBB [video]

phpBB [video]

Basketball skill wise, Lebron doesn't compete with either.

[NovU]

Using highlights youtube vids as your evidence... that's a new low. Highlights can make Allen Iverson uber good, perhaps me good too. And Kobe fans used to do that too often. Hey look Kobe can do anything Michael did, even more. ugh... ppl with short term memory would forget all those missed shots and turnovers. Utter madness.

My comments about how Bird is a better basketball player than James were laid out many posts ago, stats were asked for, so I supplied career and a single season where they were the same age. Lebron is not even close to the basketball player Bird was, we don't need to have this discussion anymore, you are correct about that.

LBJ VORP: 79.7
Bird VROP: 115.9

LBJ TS%: .584
Bird TS%: .564

LBJ PER: 27.6
Bird PER: 23.5

LBJ WS/48: .239
Bird WS/48: .203

Difference becomes more severe if we go by their prime years only which actually is the legit way. And only player that realistically contends Jordan in both advanced and boxscore stats is LBJ. Evidently both players impacted in enormous ways even just by eye test.



I don't know if it's your hatred of LBJ or love for Jordan, but you are clearly not talking any sense in this thread. Give where credit's due, buddy. Jordan was better but saying LBJ entirely is shit is simply stupid.

[Dee4Three]

Give where credit's due, buddy.

Still need to work on your communication skills.


Stats wise, all 3 are good. Basketball player wise, Lebron doesn't hold a candle to either of them. I stand by that 100%, for all the reasons I stated above. Also, I didn't use youtube videos a evidence, I have already stated all the reasons prior. However, if you actually watch them play, without your stats, Jordan and Bird are easily the better basketball players. So, video evidence is sometimes kind of nice. Because that's what we have to base it off of, who is the most impressive player. We don't stare at a stat sheet, we watch the player on the floor. And clearly, Lebron is not as impressive.

Also note, I take these players ahead of Lebron as well.

Hakeem Olajuwon
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
David Robinson
Dirk Nowitzki
Patrick Ewing
Jerry West
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Isiah Thomas
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Kobe Bryant
Vince Carter
Tracy McGrady
Allen Iverson
Shaquille O'Neal
Julius Erving
Clyde Drexler
Charles Barkley
Rick Barry
Oscar Robertson
Magic Johnson
Scottie Pippen
Steve Nash


I could go on even further, but you get the point.

Stats in a league that I consider to be weak does absolutely nothing for your case. I gave stats because they were requested, to show that averages between the 3 are comparable. Basketball players wise, his game makes me cringe, and the above named and more I would take over him.

[Dee4Three]

Ill also suggest, that you step away from the stats, and watch more of the players actually playing.

[NovU]

Then you shouldn't complain when somebody calls you a hater. Sure, the way LBJ plays makes you cringe so he's worse than all those guys listed. Sure, stats don't do mean jack if it favors LBJ even though you don't know meanings of them.

Just as suspected I don't see a difference between you and those young generation you condemn.

Ill also suggest, that you step away from the stats, and watch more of the players actually playing.

It's kinda insulting hearing this from a rookie.

[Dee4Three]

That's not what I said at all, I was asked for stats, so I provided some stats. Those stats are absolutely comparable, even the ones you provided.

The league being soft helps Lebrons stats IMMENSLEY, anybody that recognizes the state of the league sees that. So again, might want to watch more basketball as opposed to staring at stats.

Lebrons game, outside of the occasional solid drive and kick, is ugly. And the way he carries himself on the court as a crybaby, flopping machine, is ugly as well. Same with his limited, ref favoring contingent offensive "repertoire".

[air gordon]

Ah the dreaded stats don't explain it/I saw it all.

Somewhere there is a happy medium between the eye test and the advanced stats

Dee- do you understand what advanced stats are? I ask because in an earlier discussion you thought MCW was a "good" player. The advanced stats were even on the page you shared but it had to be explained to you.

[Dee4Three]

I do, I was stating MCW was not a complete scrub, that he was an important part of a couple other teams. And, he was. He looked like complete and total garbage in the Celtics series.

You guys seriously need to give up.

[Dee4Three]

I'll say again, when you watch Larry Bird and Michael Jordan play, it is beautiful. The way they compete, the repertoire they both had, the effort on both ends of the floor, the skills, etc. Watching Lebron James play, the enjoyment is thrown out the window. Similar to when I watch James Harden play.

[Dee4Three]

MCW Playoffs (look at his PER in the Celtics Series)



MCW First few seasons




So even in advanced stats, he took a huge dive from his past production.


Because the three of us will literally not gain any ground on this, and I have said my peace (multiple times), I am bowing out of this discussion.

Thanks for the entertainment. It got me through the end of my workday.

[Dee4Three]

Ah the dreaded stats don't explain it/I saw it all.

Somewhere there is a happy medium between the eye test and the advanced stats

Dee- do you understand what advanced stats are? I ask because in an earlier discussion you thought MCW was a "good" player. The advanced stats were even on the page you shared but it had to be explained to you.

Also, because I can't let this slide. THIS is a lie. Nothing had to be explained to me. I stated that MCW dropped off, and it was puzzling because he had been productive on a couple other teams in his career, and I also shared his RAW stats to show that he was not a scrub. That's when you stated his RAW stats were empty. And I stood by what I said, stating that he was productive prior, and he was garbage in the Celtics series. So this statement, is a lie to make yourself look superior. Sorry, but it doesn't work.

Also, Raw stats are a measure of what actually happened. All advanced stats are based on formulas that have been devised - and can be manipulated, or taken out of context, or decided that they're not relevant. Don't pick and choose your stats to support your argument because it suits you. This goes for both of you. Bird at age 30, with a bad back, beat Lebrons numbers at the same age. But, because that didn't support the argument, it was something along the lines of Bird being in his prime age, and Lebron had a bad season.

Give me a break guys. Put down the stats and watch some basketball, it makes you guys sound silly. I'm talking about basketball, how the players play on the floor, how they carry themselves, you guys are talking about advanced stats, and only stats that support your argument.

I actually shared career stats for Jordan and James and said that James beat him on APG and RPG. Also remember, I was ASKED for stats.

You can throw all of the numbers you guys want at me, including your beloved "Advanced Stats", and that doesn't change the way Bird and Jordan were far superior basketball players and competitors than Lebron James, in a tougher league. Throw your advanced stats out and form your own opinions.

[air gordon]

only a sith deals in absolute.

as i said there is some happy medium between the eye test and stats.

no one can possibly watch and remember all the games. perhaps the only exception being Rondo. also you can't watch a game without having some sort of bias, impairing your judgement. you've already stated jordan's style being beautiful and james style being ugly.

this is a retread of a classic discussion in the forum.

specifically what stats are manipulated and how are they manipulated? what is being taken out of context?

your argument against stats leads me to believe you don't fully understand stats, both advanced and raw. if player X scored 20 points and needed 30 shots to get those points, is that considered productive? or dished out 10 assists and had 5 turnovers. is that productive?

how about this Raw stat? lebron james passed jordan on the all time playoff scoring list. does that tell the story on how jordan totally outclassed james?

[Dee4Three]

only a sith deals in absolute.

as i said there is some happy medium between the eye test and stats.

no one can possibly watch and remember all the games. perhaps the only exception being Rondo. also you can't watch a game without having some sort of bias, impairing your judgement. you've already stated jordan's style being beautiful and james style being ugly.

this is a retread of a classic discussion in the forum.

specifically what stats are manipulated and how are they manipulated? what is being taken out of context?

your argument against stats leads me to believe you don't fully understand stats, both advanced and raw. if player X scored 20 points and needed 30 shots to get those points, is that considered productive? or dished out 10 assists and had 5 turnovers. is that productive?

how about this Raw stat? lebron james passed jordan on the all time playoff scoring list. does that tell the story on how jordan totally outclassed james?

Air Gordon, there is no hope for you at this point. NovU, same. The arrogance, and ignorance (when it comes to actual on court basketball) shines through.

Your questions don't deserve answering anymore, because anything thrown at you, you both dodge it, or cherry pick one thing you want to talk about, or bring up meaningless garbage.

Both of you are not worth it. At all.

[Sauru]

i cant believe this is still going on. i cant understand how anyone with any type of basketball knowledge can attempt to argue that lebron is even equal to jordan let alone better. like i said lebron needs to be compared to bird not jordan and if we are talking both players at their absolute best lebron cant hang with bird. lebron wins with his longevity which has to account for something otherwise we should be bringing up bill walton every time we talk about the best centers of all time.


i also dont understand why people consider it a knock on lebron to say he is not as good as jordan. lebron is an amazing talent and people now should consider themselves lucky to have been able to witness his play. not being the best ever in no way diminishes what he has done during in time in the nba.

lastly can we please stop acting like lebrons finals run is this insanely amazing thing? everyone bitches about how weak the east is (its fucking pathetic really) but then says lebron coming out of the east is a credit to his greatness? can you imagine some of the all time great teams playing in todays eastern conference? there are past teams that lost in the conference semi finals that would come out of the east today. the east is a fucking joke.

[Andrew]

Agreed. Ranking other greats below Michael Jordan still leaves plenty of room to give them a lot of praise. In all fairness though, there probably are some people who legitimately do "hate" on LeBron and don't give him his due, but you can say that for a lot of the all-time greats (even MJ).

lastly can we please stop acting like lebrons finals run is this insanely amazing thing? everyone bitches about how weak the east is (its fucking pathetic really) but then says lebron coming out of the east is a credit to his greatness? can you imagine some of the all time great teams playing in todays eastern conference? there are past teams that lost in the conference semi finals that would come out of the east today. the east is a fucking joke.

As I've said before, it's funny. For years people have been talking about how weak the East is, but it seems they've now realised that it kind of undermines LeBron's accomplishments, so they're furiously backpedalling on it and trying for a bit of revisionist history into the bargain. The new one is that he's the first player to lead two different teams to four different Finals...an impressive feat, but considering that most all-time greats spent most or all of their career with one team, which usually meant at least a decade or so playing for the same franchise, they were never in a position to do that.

When you look at the all-time greats, apart from LeBron switching teams a couple of times, the only really nomadic players in the upper echelon are Moses Malone and Shaquille O'Neal, more so Moses. Let's not forget that Moses led a sub .500 Rockets team to the NBA Finals in 1981 where they took Bird's Celtics to six games before losing, then went to Philadelphia and took the Sixers to the 1982 Finals. In addition to leading two different teams to the Finals in consecutive seasons, he was also the regular season MVP both of those years, becoming the first player to win the award back-to-back while playing for two different clubs. If you look at the careers of the best of the best, you'll find that most of them have a "first player to accomplish X" or "only player to accomplish Y" to their credit. It's something we admittedly tend to place arbitrary importance on to (somewhat artificially) bolster arguments in their favour.

[Jackal]

Legitimate question: Shaq with Kobe/Duncan work ethic. (Minus his own personality.) Better than Jordan? Or if you don't want to split big men and guards..who do you start the franchise with?

[diamenz]

havent read the entire thread, but in response to the op:

"jump shooting" in new school terms is aka 3 pointers, period. kids r so naive that they watch a few highlights and make a rash judgement while having no clue about how the game was played from an inside-outside standpoint back in the day. mid range jumper u say? krazy, step back another two feet and launch the long bomb. better yet, launch a tre 20 sec into the shot clock with a hand in your face cuz thats flexing nuts.

[Sauru]

Legitimate question: Shaq with Kobe/Duncan work ethic. (Minus his own personality.) Better than Jordan? Or if you don't want to split big men and guards..who do you start the franchise with?

if shaq had the kobe mind set it would just be fucking gross. however as a center he still needs someone to get him the ball. this is why i agree when people say we need to split the best player of all time into big man and the rest. to answer the quest, if shaq had kobe mind set his numbers would be untouchable



someone posted this video to reddit today. now i have seen pretty much all of these plays already but the play at 3:11 is just insane. people never really talk about how much easier the game is when you can grab the ball so easily.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuLprHh ... e=youtu.be

[Andrew]

That play from '88...no wonder Laimbeer is constantly talking him down with salty remarks. The catch in the '93 play was jaw-dropping as well.

As great as Shaq was, with better conditioning and work ethic, he could've been even better. That said, I don't think he'd have ever been a strong free throw shooter. He put in work, shot better than usual for a year or so, and then dropped off again. It just didn't click with him.

[Dee4Three]

But.. but... Advanced Stats in a few seasons?

The eye test is the most important, by far. If you watch a lot of each player, and it's obvious that a player is better at the majority of basketball skills, and it's clear he is more of a competitor, he probably is. Not one claim refuted my comments about footwork, shooting, low post game, body control, mental toughness, playing the right way (not loafing on D, constantly trying to sell fouls, crying to the refs constantly, going around obstacles instead of through them), etc. Stats wise, you can cherry pick, pick and choose how you may, but all 3 have good stats, but the eye test makes it very easy for me. Also, no doubt in my mind that if Jordan and Bird were in the NBA today, the stats would be elevated by quite a bit, they would dominate in today's game.

Stats wise, I could make an argument that Hakeem is the best player of all time at his peak, single season bests of over 200 steals and almost 350 blocks, combined with 1000 boards and roughly 28 PPG. Hakeem was an absolute terror on the offensive and defensive end, and in his career he demanded a double team in the post on most every posession. He is also higher than Lebron on my list, for those reasons (the visual evidence of complete dominance on both sides of the ball). Not only needed to be doubled almost every posession, but was possibly the best defending big man of all time, with amazing footwork, a sweet mid range shot, and the highest of basketball IQ. Watching the dream was poetry in motion.

And Sauru has a point about Bill Walton, him taking down that 76ers team was not supposed to happen. Julius Ervings team was heavily stacked that season (playing alongside George McGinnis. World B free, Henry Bibby, Darryl Dawkins. Etc). Walton couldn't be stopped, and surprised the world with that title. Similar to how Dirk won the 10-11 title against the super team Heat. Dirk and company swept (embarrassed) the favored Lakers in the Western Conference Finals, and went on to beat the Heat in 6 in the finals. Nobody saw that coming. Dirk put on a herculean performance (So did Jason Terry). Bill Walton barring his injuries, probably would have been realistically in this conversation as well.

I feel very strong about the points I made. And I made a lot of them.

So grasshopper, buddy, chief, champ, sport, rookie, etc. Watch more basketball, get your head out of your advanced stats, and form your own opinions based on each players skill set. Go get em, tigers.

[air gordon]

Legitimate question: Shaq with Kobe/Duncan work ethic. (Minus his own personality.) Better than Jordan? Or if you don't want to split big men and guards..who do you start the franchise with?

so you're asking if we prefer Hakeem over Jordan?

to play the dee4three card, i have been watching (live) basketball games since the 90's. i wished the Rockets played in the East so i could see them play more than the handful of times a year while the dream was playing!

the dream would routinely smash the bulls in their meetings. i always wondered how the a bulls-rockets finals could have gone