This is why I have little to no faith in the younger crowd....

[Andrew]

I mean, I feel MJ holds his own against those guys in debates, but it's misguided to completely write them off, sure.

[Sauru]

honestly whenever someone says "X player was better than jordan" i know its best to avoid discussing basketball with them. also someone said in an interview (cant remember who right now) that we should have 2 best players, a big man and non big man. i agree with this. comparing jordan to wilt makes no sense. comparing shaq to kobe makes no sense. then there is always to topic of longevity and how much it matters when talking about the best ever. i give lebron the nod over bird for sure in terms of greatness but thats from his longevity. if we are talking both players at their single season best then we have a lot more to talk about

[Jeffx]

honestly whenever someone says "X player was better than jordan" i know its best to avoid discussing basketball with them. also someone said in an interview (cant remember who right now) that we should have 2 best players, a big man and non big man. i agree with this. comparing jordan to wilt makes no sense. comparing shaq to kobe makes no sense. then there is always to topic of longevity and how much it matters when talking about the best ever. i give lebron the nod over bird for sure in terms of greatness but thats from his longevity. if we are talking both players at their single season best then we have a lot more to talk about

Comparing Jordan to LeBron makes no sense, yet fans and media loudmouths have an obsession with it. LeBron is Magic & Oscar rolled into one, while Kobe is the closest I've seen to Jordan.

And whenever I see an NBA top 10 without the 3 big centers, Oscar & West, I just move on.

[Sauru]

honestly whenever someone says "X player was better than jordan" i know its best to avoid discussing basketball with them. also someone said in an interview (cant remember who right now) that we should have 2 best players, a big man and non big man. i agree with this. comparing jordan to wilt makes no sense. comparing shaq to kobe makes no sense. then there is always to topic of longevity and how much it matters when talking about the best ever. i give lebron the nod over bird for sure in terms of greatness but thats from his longevity. if we are talking both players at their single season best then we have a lot more to talk about

Comparing Jordan to LeBron makes no sense, yet fans and media loudmouths have an obsession with it. LeBron is Magic & Oscar rolled into one, while Kobe is the closest I've seen to Jordan.

And whenever I see an NBA top 10 without the 3 big centers, Oscar & West, I just move on.

but what about carmelo, wade, KD, Curry, westbrook, and harden? none of the players you mentioned would even make a team in todays nba.

[NovU]

Real reason why anyone thinks Jordan was better than Wilt is exactly the same reason why today's people think LBJ is better than Jordan. Game and players evolved to be better so newer is better type of mindset. Otherwise nobody has a case against Wilt, then MJ, then LBJ.

[Andrew]

honestly whenever someone says "X player was better than jordan" i know its best to avoid discussing basketball with them. also someone said in an interview (cant remember who right now) that we should have 2 best players, a big man and non big man. i agree with this. comparing jordan to wilt makes no sense. comparing shaq to kobe makes no sense. then there is always to topic of longevity and how much it matters when talking about the best ever. i give lebron the nod over bird for sure in terms of greatness but thats from his longevity. if we are talking both players at their single season best then we have a lot more to talk about

You know, it's hard to call any of the widely acknowledged upper echelon of all-time greats underrated, but Bird probably doesn't get enough credit for the things he did as an average-at-best athlete who came along at a time when the league had already become very athletic (and many of those great athletes were very talented besides). It's a testament to his skill, basketball smarts, and competitive drive that he was able to outplay and overwhelm opponents, when generally speaking his only natural advantage was his height (and that obviously wasn't the case in all situations, either).

[Dee4Three]

Andrew, agreed on Bird.

The fact that most of the younger crowd, or people that didn't watch him play a lot, call him "A shooter", and basically lay it out like he was an un-athletic white guy that could shoot and pass well but was a poor defender, really bugs me. Bird was actually a solid one on one defender, and a top tier team defender. He also was more athletic than people give him credit for, with a quick first step. He also was a beast on the boards (better rebound numbers all through his career than Lebron James). Couple all of that with his Mental Toughness, teamwork, and his clutch, you have the greatest small forward of all time. He also was good at taking it to the hoop, finishing underneath, and he had a great post game. The people that say he was a slow, un-athletic white guy who could shoot and not defend well, have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Bird would absolutely dominate the NBA today.

In regards to saying players get better with time, that is completely false, and I cannot believe I am even responding to that. Saying that LeBron is better than Jordan because he is newer, is like saying Odell Beckham Jr. is better than Jerry Rice (well because, the game and players have evolved, you know?). It's like saying a Boxer now is better than Iron Mike Tyson (Because the sport has evolved, you know), etc etc. I could give a hundred other examples of why that statement holds no ground. Jordan, in any era, ever, has all the basketball talent/tools/skill to be the best in the league. It doesn't even matter how much the game "evolves" moving forward. The court is the same length, the lines are the same, and the baskets are 10 feet high. But, since we are talking about the evolution of the game. Lets look at what the NBA is lacking now that it had, say, in the 80's and 90's

1) The NBA had titans for big men. Big men that knew how to work the block, but also hit the mid range jumper. Towers that protected the paint, that made offensive players scared to bring it to the hoop with fear of getting swatted into the first row.

2) The mid range game was at it's peak, players took HIGHER % SHOTS, putting more pressure on the defenses. The ball movement would comprise of not only looking for drives and kicks, or hard drives and threes, but also post-ups, High post-ups, mid range attack, as well as threes.

3) More players were fierce competitors. You could tell by the way they carried themselves throughout the seasons/playoffs.

4) The defense was stronger. More teams played physical defense, more teams took pride in defense.

5) Outside of a couple players, most of the entire league wasn't selling fouls even close to the amount they do it today. Go back and watch film, and they are just playing basketball. You can watch 1000 hours of Jordan/Bird film, and you won't see them pulling any of the garbage you see in todays NBA. The constant flopping, the constant tilting the head back when driving to the hoop like you are getting hit (I see you Harden), the jumping INTO the defender after an upfake looking for a call, the offensive player wrapping his arm up into the defender and throwing the ball towards the hoop selling a foul (And getting the call more often than not) etc. The league felt more like poetry in motion, you could actually focus on the basketball part of the game, as opposed to all the antics.



There are more subtle differences, but those are the main points I wanted to get in. Saying Lebron is better because he is newer, is wrong on so many levels. Jordan has better footwork, mental toughness, shooting, defense (yes, defense), post, and he played the right way. None of the antics on the court, just pure basketball genius. I also want to point out, that the league was still pretty strong in the early 2000's.

[NovU]

With all due respect Dee, you are making the same silly argument as those you condemn(young people). Most of stuff you say cannot be proven, thus debatable, opinionated, circumstantial. As much as younger generation make stupid claims, there are also a lot of 90s nostalgia doing the same thing.

For instance, competitiveness is not something you can measure. It's impossible to know if Jordan's competitiveness was greater than player "a" or "b". And to what extent it mattered on the court and offcourt preparedness. So to presume and claim that today's players are entirely shitty competitors is not going to convince too many young people. Rather they will disregard you as just 'hater'. Avoid the cheap talk.

Also on your second point, teams have gradually learned and discouraged players taking mid ranges as it returned least point per possession rate.



Now, it's extremely stupid thing to say Bird was better than LBJ. Funnily not even lowest of Celtics fans have hard time saying it. LBJ is clearly the closest to Jordan and this is evident from statistical pov. Not better, but close. Just because Kobe was jordan look alike, it doesn't mean they made same level of impact on the court.

[Dee4Three]

I take Bird in a heartbeat over James. I wouldn't even have to think about it. I actually think it's a massive insult to Bird to compare them.

Also, the mid range game made the game more diverse, it made offenses have more weapons. It was the perfect inside/middle/outside combination.

I watched/followed the NBA live through the 90's, 2000's and 2010's. The "90s nostalgia" attack doesn't fly with me, as I am comparing what I watched/followed through each decade. And, I stand by everything I said above.

My points made can all be proven by the open minded observer watching each decade of basketball. I am actually the same age as Lebron James, I could easily be trying to say that the NBA is at it's peak now (Because supposedly the best player in the world, my age, is playing in it). But I am not, because it's not true.

When I watch basketball now, I see more players going through the motions, more players looking for the refs to bail them out. Instead of playing basketball, they are looking for help. Instead of dominating with skill, many are searching for the whistle.

It is obvious that there were more fierce competitors, anybody who watched knows that. So I dont need numbers to back that up.

In regards to big men, that is a huge hole in today's game. We don't see hardly any post play whatsoever, hardly any players skilled on the block.

[NovU]

You will see fallacy in your argument in the future. You are young me in some ways.

It doesnt matter if you think competitiveness can be quantified or not. Its not because Jordan's fierceness was greater than Stockton's or Payton's, he was better than those guys. It's not because Kwame doesnt want to be good, he sucks.

Open minded observer is another claim, not a proof. I do not fly that way.

90s was great for fans but glorifying it to means of detriment of current era seems bit silly. I am just pointing it out so you can understand better both sides of argument. In no way I am a fan of LBJ, rather statically geek. Enjoy.

[Dee4Three]

You will see fallacy in your argument in the future. You are young me in some ways.

It doesnt matter if you think competitiveness can be quantified or not. Its not because Jordan's fierceness was greater than Stockton's or Payton's, he was better than those guys. It's not because Kwame doesnt want to be good, he sucks.

Open minded observer is another claim, not a proof. I do not fly that way.

90s was great for fans but glorifying it to means of detriment of current era seems bit silly. I am just pointing it out so you can understand better both sides of argument. In no way I am a fan of LBJ, rather statically geek. Enjoy.

You are not educating me, or making me understand both sides of anything. I absolutely came into this discussion with knowledge of the game, so don't be demeaning. You have not shown me anything, actually. I am not glorifying the 90's for the shear reason of crapping on today's NBA, I am being realistic about the comparisons between decades. And with all the comparisons flying around about "Is he the goat!?", "Is he better than him?!" etc, it's absolutely relevant for me to come into a forum and say my peace, with my reasoning given above, I am clearly strong in my convictions.

Again, I stand by all my claims above, 100%.

[NovU]

Jordan comparisons been done thousand times with a lot of players since he left (just ask Kobe). But for this time with LBJ, it actually makes sense. Discussion is legit.

[Dee4Three]

Jordan comparisons been done thousand times with a lot of players since he left (just ask Kobe). But for this time with LBJ, it actually makes sense. Discussion is legit.

This discussion to you, is legit. To me, it's an insult. So we will have to agree to disagree.

[air gordon]

Just a few to add

I can't agree with spacing being better in the earlier days. The modern game has 4 sometimes 5 players that all can shoot from distance.

Athletically, physically, skills- lebron James may be the most talented player ever. I don't think there is a comparison for him. Oscar and magic is ok but those it don't do justice to the sheer power he uses in his game

I would agree with the physicality factor is more in the earlier days. Players are protected now. Hand checking, zone defense, less spacing was a challenge for the players from earlier times

Ok continue

[Dee4Three]

Just a few to add

I can't agree with spacing being better in the earlier days. The modern game has 4 sometimes 5 players that all can shoot from distance.

Athletically, physically, skills- lebron James may be the most talented player ever. I don't think there is a comparison for him. Oscar and magic is ok but those it don't do justice to the sheer power he uses in his game

I would agree with the physicality factor is more in the earlier days. Players are protected now. Hand checking, zone defense, less spacing was a challenge for the players from earlier times

Ok continue

I was saying that there were more facets to the game. Low post, high post, mid range, threes, etc. That the offense had more to offer. Not necessarily spacing. For example, you would see more entries into the low post (because of more dominant big men), more two man game, more pull ups from tweener/mid range to go along with those 3's and drives.

Thanks what I was getting at. It's part of the reason the game was more of a joy to watch (to me).

In regards to Lebron, skills wise I don't agree with you at all. So we will have to agree to disagree.

[NovU]

I seriously can't tell if this is a joke. LBJ's played on highest level possible for several years now dominating competition and making jokes out of them. If you can't recognize this excellency, perhaps you aren't watching at all. Do you not recognize for the first time in a long time we have actual worthy challenger to greatness? Sure, insulting.

I understand Jordan's excellence but sometimes LBJ hating blinds ppl beyond saving.

[Dee4Three]

I seriously can't tell if this is a joke. LBJ's played on highest level possible for several years now dominating competition and making jokes out of them. If you can't recognize this excellency, perhaps you aren't watching at all. Do you not recognize for the first time in a long time we have actual worthy challenger to greatness? Sure, insulting.

I understand Jordan's excellence but sometimes LBJ hating blinds ppl beyond saving.

That's not the case here, I am not blinded. It's not "hating", it's being honest about how I feel in regards to how he stacks up.

And no, its not a joke

[air gordon]

My spacing comments- should have said in response to your midrange game argument of it diversifying the game/the perfect combo

As novu pointed out already, it's a lower percentage shot and quantum physically speaking it's easier to cover. Haha really the lower amount of space needed to recover for the defense makes its easier to defend the midrange

I'm not sure staying strong in your convictions, saying you watched games from back in the day, saying anyone that knows basketball knows this... Makes a good argument. Sure we have the right to say what we want here but it doesn't make much for a good discussion. Just saying

[Dee4Three]

I made plenty of points, and again, I stand by them.

I'm not asking you two to agree with me, because I know that it won't happen. I just put it out there.


Bird>Lebron
Jordan>Lebron

90's>Today



For the reasons I stated above.

[Dee4Three]

I already gave plenty of reasons why I believe the 80's and 90's were superior to todays NBA. They were in bold above.

In regards to Bird over Lebron, that is easy for me. I take the more skilled basketball player, the player who is more mentally tough, the player I would want to lead my team to victory. Bird is a more skilled basketball player, as well as far ahead mentally, tough as nails. Bird's passing was as good or better, and his rebounding was superior. He was also a better shooter, and better in the post. Defensively, he more than held his own, without all of the Harden like defense that Lebron plays (Complaining in the backcourt not getting back, loafing so he can get a fastbreak dunk, etc). I watched Lebron off the ball constantly in the 10-11 finals, and he made so many big screw-ups on defense (some of them that were straight lazy), that he lost Miami games. And before you say "pointing out one series", Lebron has been like that his whole career. He acts like a baby, he is a baby. I would never want a player with his attitude on my team. His game is predicated on fastbreak dunks, and using his off arm when he goes to the hoop to create space in order to score. His footwork isn't elite, his jump shot is not elite, his post game is weak. He gets away with murder on the court, like his double dribble while on Jaylen Brown last game, and his ridiculous off arm drives to the hoop. That's not basketball, that is garbage.

In regards to Jordan, again, I go with the more skilled basketball player, the far more skilled basketball player. It's not even a question.

Lebron is an average ball handler, and a good passer. If you take away his height, strength and athleticism, putting him in say... Marcus Smarts body, he would be a better passing version of Marcus Smart.

That is how I feel about Lebron. He is not, in any way shape or form, in my top 10 or even 20 all time.

This quote by Steve Kerr says a lot about how I feel. But Lebron does a good job of getting his points in the paint by plowing through the lane, those are his easy baskets.


"Phil Jackson used to call Scottie a 'sometimes shooter.' Sometimes they would go in, sometimes they wouldn't. That's how it is with LeBron. He's a great talent and a great player but you can see his flaws as a basketball player. He doesn't have an offensive game that he can rely on: no low-post game, no mid-range jump shot so when the game really gets tough he has a hard time finding easy baskets and getting himself going. That's what Michael did in his sleep so that's why the comparison is wrong."

[air gordon]

I don't plan on agreeing. I'm all about discussion. Sell me

I said James is the closest thing to Jordan. Not better. You say he isn't even I'm the same sentence. This is based on the game beimg weaker now than before and his footwork is better. Is this correct?

Also said skillwise they do not compare. What is this based on? Raw stats, advanced stats, career stats?

[Dee4Three]

Oh, and btw... I know for a fact I will get killed for that post. But guess what? I'm on here being completely honest.

I don't need to shy away from a NBA discussion based on sarcasm and bullying tactics (or insults). Like "Its an extremely stupid thing to say", or demeaning me. Because see, you guys think I am crazy, but in turn, I think that your logic in this regard doesn't make any sense, either. So basically, it's just a back and forth with nothing come out of it.

So spare me with the demeaning comments, etc.

[Dee4Three]

I don't plan on agreeing. I'm all about discussion. Sell me

I said James is the closest thing to Jordan. Not better. You say he isn't even I'm the same sentence. This is based on the game beimg weaker now than before and his footwork is better. Is this correct?

Also said skillwise they do not compare. What is this based on? Raw stats, advanced stats, career stats?

I'm talking about Jordan's footwork, his ability to score whenever he wants to, at will, and every way imaginable. Him being far more of a competitor (Not crying to the refs, not selling fouls constantly, not accusing opponents of being to physical) overcoming obstacles instead of trying to get around them.

He has a better post game, a better mid range game, a better slashing game, better footwork, a better on ball defender, better bod control, a more disciplined defender.

Stats wise (in regards to steals), Lebron doesn't even touch him, they are tied on career blocks per game (But Jordan was far better in his elite athletic peak, including recording 131 in a single season, to lebrons best of 93). Scoring averages he doesn't touch him either (30.1 to 27.1), and that is factoring in Jordan's Wizards seasons, and rebound and assists Jordan was very strong in throughout his entire career, losing to James on both. However, in regards to rebounds, I believe Jordan would have increased his average by 2 or more if he was playing in today's NBA, as he wouldn't be fending off so many big men roaming the paint. Shooting percentages between the two FG% wise are almost identical, with Lebron having the slight edge on 3PT %, but Jordan winning FT%. Jordan averaged 0.7 less turnovers a game for his career.

He is not the closest thing to Jordan, his game is literally nothing like his. His accomplishments are in the weakest era of the NBA.

Selling somebody with stats also doesn't tell the story, even though MJ more than holds his own in that regard. I'm talking about, if you watch both players perform, it's not even a question (in my opinion). Jordan is poetry in motion, and to me, Lebrons game is cringeworthy to watch.

[Dee4Three]

This whole "Larry Bird isn't close thing" is also ridiculous, if we are talking stats.

This is both players at age 30, Bird had a bad back at the time, and look at his numbers.

[Dee4Three]

Here is Bird's career after 13 seasons compared to Lebrons.

Again, stats wise, he compares.

Player wise, I take Bird in a heartbeat, not even close.