This is why I have little to no faith in the younger crowd....

[Dee4Three]

And, someone agreed with him. They were being serious....

[Andrew]

Says it all, really. It doesn't help that the likes of BSPN perpetuate these myths.

[Dee4Three]

Jordan is the best jump-shooter of all time, shitty? They shouldn't even be allowed to have computers.

[Andrew]

Considering the damage he'd do from midrange, it certainly is a puzzling assertion. Presumably, someone said LeBron was a superior shooter, and thus everyone who says otherwise is clearly blinded by nostalgia.

[Dee4Three]

Considering the damage he'd do from midrange, it certainly is a puzzling assertion. Presumably, someone said LeBron was a superior shooter, and thus everyone who says otherwise is clearly blinded by nostalgia.

That makes me want to vomit

[Andrew]

Hey, didn't you know? Everything from the past actually sucked. Now is always better. Take The Beatles for example. They weren't that great, the 60s was a weak era for music after all. The latest Fast & The Furious movie? Way better than Terminator 2! It's only the bitter old haters who think otherwise!

Seriously though, whether it's sports, music, video games, films, or TV shows, sometimes I think we're too aware of the nostalgia filter. Sure, it's easy to look back with rose-coloured glasses, only focus on the good stuff, and hold the "good old days" in high esteem. Sometimes, that's off-base; we tend to only remember the good stuff, and develop an attachment to it. At the same time, that doesn't mean stuff wasn't good, doesn't hold up, or isn't a barometer of high quality.

As for the younger crowd smirking at older fans for allegedly being bitter, insecure, overly-sensitive haters...well, give it another decade or so. They might find themselves saying the same things to the younger fans that come along after them. As The Simpsons put it:

[Dee4Three]

But, I look at reality. If something sounds better, that's better music, if I watch a player and see that he has a great skill set that separates him from other players, that's a great skill set and that player was great at it. With something like sports however, I don't think there is much of a grey area with this, it really is black and white in most cases.

For example, Jordans jump shot. It's iconic, it's smooth, it's deadly. ANYBODY who has seen even highlights of Jordan taking a jumper can't possibly deny the visual evidence, have these kids really NEVER seen Jordan shoot a jumper? Or... am I naive? Do they have the ability to seriously block out the visual evidence and say it's something it's actually not? Do the talking heads really have that much pull?

Let's look at the "news": the majority of the population falls for the talking heads words, it creates a divide among the people, it can make people hate other races/eachother, it can make them back legislature that they actually know nothing about, it can make them believe stories are true that are not. And that is for all ages, not just the youth. So, the majority of the population is actually guilty of a similar trait that these young kids have, and it's not good.

My frustration when it comes to sports is: it literally is right in front of you on youtube to decide for yourself. You cannot possibly watch a video of Jordan shooting jumpers, and call him a shitty shooter. You also can't watch a video of Lebron shooting jumpers and say he is superior to Jordan on them, it's impossible, he's not even close. It's the same as comparing body control or footwork, those two are not even close, it's Jordan by a mile.

[Andrew]

I guess that's the thing, a lot of people don't bother looking at such evidence. Alternatively, they'll cherry-pick the facts and figures that support their claim, while finding a way to dismiss evidence to the contrary ("weak era", somehow "irrelevant", "hating"...take your pick). I guess we're all guilty of that at some point, but certain examples are more egregious...like the one you've come across there.

It doesn't help that the talking heads, convinced of their genius insight and infallible logic while wilfully ignorant of their own biases, are loudly hammering home falsehoods and twisted facts. Unfortunately, the opinion that's expressed the loudest is often seen to be right, rather than the one that's the most well-reasoned or supported by evidence. I do think that has an impact, because people can point to "expert opinion", especially when blunt and brash statements are seen as having some innate wisdom, simply because they're unfiltered. Consider also the all-too-common belief that the contrarian must be right, being smarter than all the "sheeple" who blindly believe what they've been told...as if blindly following contrarian thought is any different.

[Sauru]

i find this funny because i constantly try to argue that jordan was an over rated dunker and and underrated shooter. however you cannot argue with younger people today because they literally have no fucking clue what a mid range jumper is. you either dunk the ball or fire up a 3.

[Andrew]

Overrated dunker? How dare you! (Actually, that's an interesting conversation, and I could probably at least see where you're coming from there).

I think you bring up a good point, though. "Jump shooter" these days has probably come to mean "three-point shooter", and that wasn't MJ's forte or preferred offensive weapon.

[Dee4Three]

I agree with Sauru to a point. He is known for his dunking by the youngens who don't know what they are talking about. The people that truly know basketball and watched MJ play know him for his amazing foot work, body control, amazing defense, and all around offense. Oh, and leadership.

In my opinion, Vince Carter is the best dunker of all time. He mixed sheer power with amazing body control and finesse (Yes, power AND finesse somehow). Jordan was literally a nightmare for anybody to guard in the post, or out on the wing. His good 3 point shooting percentages in the mid 90's were kind of skewed because of the moved in 3PT line, but he could still hit from out there (Ask Cliff Robinson).

[Dee4Three]

I also want to point out, I believe that overall, there are more high level ball handlers today than the 80's and early 90's. I am a realistic guy.

[air gordon]

So this is the social media era we live in

Some food for thought

How would Jordan be perceived if his career happened during this era of social media? This is under assumption he still followed after Magic/bird/etc

Would he be afforded the same "protection" he got from the media?

[Dee4Three]

He wouldn't have the same needed protection, because of the way he carried himself on the court and in interviews. Also, his game would not need the protection from the referees. You can watch a thousand hours of Jordan footage, and not see him flop or "sell" a foul once. His off court gambling stuff may have put some small shade on him, but I feel like gambling isn't magnified as a bad trait as much in todays age.

[air gordon]

Not sure I'm aboard with you on this. Jordan had a very well kept public image but imagine if Sam Smith's Jordan rules came out now, the infedility, the bullying of teammates. The Jordan crying emoji is immortalized. Imagine if they had this for ammunition

I will agree with the complaining -
I'll even admit Jordan worked the refs for some calls but he didn't stop playing when he didn't get the call

[Dee4Three]

Not sure I'm aboard with you on this. Jordan had a very well kept public image but imagine if Sam Smith's Jordan rules came out now, the infedility, the bullying of teammates. The Jordan crying emoji is immortalized. Imagine if they had this for ammunition

I will agree with the complaining -
I'll even admit Jordan worked the refs for some calls but he didn't stop playing when he didn't get the call

I don't know, the infedility thing in the NBA is interesting... because any logical person knows that these guys are on the road a good portion of the year, and do that stuff. And, many of them have agreements with their wives that's it's okay. I think the bullying of teammates may have been out there a little more, but I don't see it as something that would have been harped on as much as you may think.

Either way, we will never know. But it's fun to think about what it would be like.

[Andrew]

It's an interesting question. It's possible that playing in the social media age would make it more difficult for MJ to maintain the same public image, but then again, perhaps not; perhaps even more likely not. We're in an age where people are doing and saying things that should really hurt and derail their careers, yet they're coming out almost completely unaffected and smelling like roses. Brash and unfiltered attitudes are seen as "refreshing", imperfections being a badge of honour and proof of humanity in vocations where people are often deified. As I said in another thread, it also seems like there isn't a criticism that can't be deflected, downplayed, or completely dismissed by calling someone a "hater". Pulling back the curtain to provide a peek at MJ's less admirable moments might vilify him today, or it might in fact vilify Smith instead ("You can't criticise him on the court, so you're digging up dirt on him to try and tear him down! Hater!").

Winning has a way of smoothing over those criticisms, even now. On top of that, one wonders whether some of MJ's transgressions would register compared to what other athletes have done. Would altercations with teammates, infidelity, and a penchant for gambling seem like a big deal compared to Michael Vick's involvement in dog fighting, or Aaron Hernandez's murder charge? Would it cause disillusionment with and mockery of the sport, as with the steroids scandals in baseball? Perhaps Kobe Bryant is a suitable comparison here. Admittedly his infidelity and accompanying rape charge came before the explosion of social media, but with the case being dismissed and his reconciliation with his wife, on top of his further success as a player, the incident - though never completely forgotten - soon became "ancient history", a personal matter that was none of our business.

As much as social media would have a field day exposing MJ and trying to tear down his image, there'd be a lot of people vehemently defending him as well. Reactions can fly in the face of expectations or the usual standards and morality, especially when celebrities are involved. It's difficult to find behaviour that people won't justify or defend, especially if the person is popular and successful, and the matter isn't criminal and is largely between them and other people in their lives, rather than the public. I'm not saying that's right, but it's how it works sometimes, so it's a distinct possibility. Sure, the social media age might not have been as kind to MJ for some of the less admirable things that he did, but other athletes and celebrities have arguably put worse scandals behind them and gone on to more success in the social media age. It's not unthinkable that MJ's image would still have a Teflon coat, at least to some extent. Again, not saying it's necessarily right, but it's certainly how it could go.

[air gordon]

overall well said, Andrew.

not sure what you're doing there with comparing baseballs biggest scandal (steroids), a person involved in animal cruelty, and also a murderer to MJ's behavior

what people would defend vehemently jordan's infidelity and penchant for being a bully/jerk?!

i wouldn't call myself a fan of lebron james but i believe this is the closest thing we are seeing to Jordan for this generation which happens to be in the era of social media. yet there is a lot of negativity towards him.. not counting these lebron vs jordan debates. and if i'm not mistaken, his image is even more squeaky clean than Jordan. his biggest mishap off the court was perhaps doing the "decision" live and then counting championships before playing a game with the heat.

perhaps i'm looking in the wrong direction and instead should be pointing the finger at social media, hot takes, loudmouth commentators, etc.

[NovU]

gordie, it's a nice topic you brought up. It's ironic because Wilt should easily be regarded as the best player ever simply because he WAS better than Jordan and LBJ by wide margin. But we or media do not mention about him ever in GOAT discussions.

Kobe generation claimed he was the best ever over MJ and LBJ. Now we see LBJ over MJ. Endless shitty discussion until someone significantly better shows up I guess.

[Andrew]

overall well said, Andrew.

not sure what you're doing there with comparing baseballs biggest scandal (steroids), a person involved in animal cruelty, and also a murderer to MJ's behavior

what people would defend vehemently jordan's infidelity and penchant for being a bully/jerk?!

I was just providing some examples of scandals, and athletes who have fallen from grace. The point I'm getting at there is, if there's nothing criminal going on, the integrity of the game isn't being compromised, and the person is winning, fans will forgive a lot. Don't underestimate the power of blind devotion, and emotional investment in athletes and celebrities. A lot of people would find ways to excuse or downplay that stuff. The loyalty of the "well, to be fair..." crowd is strong, and their voices loud. Whether or not they should forgive and forget so readily just because the person is famous, and what it says about their morality...well, that's obviously another matter entirely. But that is what happens, right or wrong, understandable or not.

i wouldn't call myself a fan of lebron james but i believe this is the closest thing we are seeing to Jordan for this generation which happens to be in the era of social media. yet there is a lot of negativity towards him.. not counting these lebron vs jordan debates. and if i'm not mistaken, his image is even more squeaky clean than Jordan. his biggest mishap off the court was perhaps doing the "decision" live and then counting championships before playing a game with the heat.

perhaps i'm looking in the wrong direction and instead should be pointing the finger at social media, hot takes, loudmouth commentators, etc.

The contemporary approach to sports journalism, which is as sensationalised as much as it's ever been, definitely has a lot to do with it. I mentioned it in an older thread, but some months back I was watching MJ's 63 point game against Boston on ESPN (ESPN Australia had some classic content this offseason, which was refreshing), and I couldn't help but notice that while Dick Stockton and Tom Heinsohn marvelled at what MJ was doing, they weren't rushing to call it The Greatest Performance Ever. There were no immediate comparisons to other great games save for mention for Elgin Baylor's record which ultimately was bested, no rush to put the game in historical context. Coverage has obviously changed over the years in terms of whipping up graphics and being on top of all the stats, but I also think there was less of a desire to force the issue with comparisons and declarations of greatness. That trend really started in the mid 00s, and it's only blown up with social media.

Beyond that though, I think LeBron does bring it upon himself to some extent. He's avoided scandal in terms of infidelity or gambling, and there haven't been altercations with teammates to speak of (save for some televised blow-ups at Mario Chalmers). However, he's also carried himself in an arrogant way at times, and made choices that have drawn people's ire and vilified him. There's the way he's documented as introducing himself as "The King" to young athletes he's trying to recruit. There was the way he grabbed the spotlight from Nate Robinson in the immediate aftermath of the 2009 dunk contest, only to um and ah and ultimately decline to participate after declaring he would to get all the attention. In the Playoffs that same year, there was the embarrassing loss to the Magic where he refused to shake hands (despite sticking around to shake hands with the teams he'd eliminated), threw his teammates under the bus, and declared himself a "winner". There was The Decision, and his remarks deflecting responsibility and criticism after the loss in the 2011 Finals. Both times he's departed a team, he's left ownership and executives in the dark until the last minute, and feeling betrayed as a result. In some ways, he's carried himself with a lot of dignity, but in other ways, he's come off like a spoiled brat who pouts when someone else gets attention, and seems affronted that people would dare criticise him. It's rubbed people the wrong way, especially when talking heads continue to sing his praises and make comparisons to other greats.

Mind you, all that stuff can get blown out of proportion as well. Hakeem Olajuwon once threw his teammates under the bus, but that doesn't come up a lot. Magic Johnson once publicly demanded a trade which briefly hurt his popularity, and resulted in him not being voted in as an All-Star starter that year, the only time in his career that happened. He also had a string of affairs, resulting in him contracting HIV which could have placed his wife at risk of infection as well. Karl Malone fathered a son through statutory rape, paid off the family, and later refused to have anything to do with him. If they'd been playing in the social media age, that stuff might not be as easily forgotten. Likewise, some of LeBron's less admirable moments might not have blown up as much as they did if he'd been playing in their era.

Anyway, its certainly interesting to think about. It's hard to predict the reaction sometimes, since fans and the media can be notoriously fickle, but also staunchly supportive. Scandal ruins some people, and makes other people a lot of money. It's weird, and inconsistent to boot.

[Dee4Three]

overall well said, Andrew.

not sure what you're doing there with comparing baseballs biggest scandal (steroids), a person involved in animal cruelty, and also a murderer to MJ's behavior

what people would defend vehemently jordan's infidelity and penchant for being a bully/jerk?!

i wouldn't call myself a fan of lebron james but i believe this is the closest thing we are seeing to Jordan for this generation which happens to be in the era of social media. yet there is a lot of negativity towards him.. not counting these lebron vs jordan debates. and if i'm not mistaken, his image is even more squeaky clean than Jordan. his biggest mishap off the court was perhaps doing the "decision" live and then counting championships before playing a game with the heat.

perhaps i'm looking in the wrong direction and instead should be pointing the finger at social media, hot takes, loudmouth commentators, etc.

You are talking about scandals, the negativity towards LeBron mostly is in the form of "He is really overrated", and "He doesn't get back on defense", and "Ultimate stat padder", and "Uses a stiff arm on almost all drives to the basket", and 'He's not tough, he's a baby", and "he flops", and "He throws his teammates under the bus".

Lebron is not the closest thing to Jordan, he isn't even close to the same level as a basketball player. The critiques on Lebron outside of the way he conducts himself ON the court, is the decision and the way he speaks about his teammates sometimes. Oh, and the fact that he makes sure to stack his teams wherever he goes. But, in regards to critiquing his game, there are MANY more ways to go at Lebron in comparison to Jordan. I hate even putting them in the same sentence.

[Dee4Three]

gordie, it's a nice topic you brought up. It's ironic because Wilt should easily be regarded as the best player ever simply because he WAS better than Jordan and LBJ by wide margin. But we or media do not mention about him ever in GOAT discussions.

Kobe generation claimed he was the best ever over MJ and LBJ. Now we see LBJ over MJ. Endless shitty discussion until someone significantly better shows up I guess.

This comment doesn't really make sense.

Wilt would have been a very dominant big man in any NBA time period, however, when he was averaging 50 PPG and 27 RPG, he was against much smaller competition in the 60's. If you watch highlights, he literally looked like a monster next to anybody, even next to Bill Russell (And Bill held his own against Chamberlain for the most part). Chamberlain should not "easily" be regarded as the best player ever, especially since he did have talent around him, but only got over the hump twice (66-67 and 71-72). And in 71-72, he averaged 14 PPG, that was more Jerry Wests team at that point. If you are going by numbers, Jordan and Wilt share the same career PPG (Both 30.1). And Jordan more than held his own in the number department, both players put up great numbers.

Wilt Chamberlain was great in the paint, and an amazing rebounder/defender (going by highlights and analysis), but that doesn't make him better than Jordan as a basketball player. Jordan had literally all of the tools (Perimeter, post, shot blocking, quick hands, defense in general, passing, ball handling, footwork). He literally had everything you could want in a basketball player. Jordan also was not taller, bigger, or stronger than the league, he did it all with basketball skill, a thing of beauty really. He also played in a time when many dominant big men lurked the paint (The best times for big men, really), as well as many talented wings. And in my opinion, when the league was it's peak. He got over the hump 6 times, and his first three were truly magical, especially when you look at the rosters he had. Keep in mind, Pippen started his career with the Bulls, and grew with Jordan. No superteam was formed, Jordan did not have a stacked squad in the least, he was just that good.

[air gordon]

Andrew,
We are in an unique (or cursed) position of Jordan being part of the beloved bulls and now watching this generation's Jordan sticking to the bulls and the rest of the league.

Well said post again. Honestly these grumbling about ljames being arrogant and not a good teammate sound eerily familiar to Jordan and his "supporting cast"

Dee,
Thanks for your opinion. That's a high standard there. Ljames not the closest thing in this generation to mj? Didn't say he was better I will agree to disagree. Haven't had a wilt vs mj vs James debate for some time so I guess the forum is due. Have at it, novu

[Dee4Three]

Andrew,
We are in an unique (or cursed) position of Jordan being part of the beloved bulls and now watching this generation's Jordan sticking to the bulls and the rest of the league.

Well said post again. Honestly these grumbling about ljames being arrogant and not a good teammate sound eerily familiar to Jordan and his "supporting cast"

Dee,
Thanks for your opinion. That's a high standard there. Ljames not the closest thing in this generation to mj? Didn't say he was better I will agree to disagree. Haven't had a wilt vs mj vs James debate for some time so I guess the forum is due. Have at it, novu

Kobe was the closest, based on his game (Footwork, ability on both ends of the floor, mental toughness, how he approached the game). However, Kobe still did all of those things at a lower level in comparison to Jordan. Nobody in today's game currently playing is close basketball talent wise to Jordan.

In regards to Wilt, I feel I have said my peace. Wilt is a true legend, but as a basketball player, I can't possibly put him above MJ.

[Jeffx]

Hey, didn't you know? Everything from the past actually sucked. Now is always better.

Yep, that's pretty much the attitude I get from many younger cats today, especially when it comes to sports.

It's why I stopped going to Knicks fan pages on Facebook. You actually have morons who think Carmelo is the greatest Knick since Patrick. The Knicks went to two Finals during the Ewing era, and had intense, bitter rivalries with Chicago, Indiana & Miami. What do the Knicks have to show for the Carmelo era? One playoff series win, and these clowns are doing handstands.

And don't get me started on the idiots who pump up Jordan at the expense of Wilt, Russell, Oscar, Kareem or West