Rick Pitino: NBA should be option

[Andrew]

Rick Pitino has opened up the old high school to the pros debate once more.

Louisville Cardinals coach Rick Pitino says high school athletes should have the right to enter the NBA draft.

"I'm very much in favor of high school kids going pro," said Pitino, who will lead Louisville against Northern Iowa in a round-of-32 NCAA tournament matchup Sunday, during his pregame comments Saturday. "I had six young men commit to me out of high school that didn't go to college, that went to the pros. I'm very much for that because they didn't want college. They wanted to go to the NBA. And if they go to the [NBA Development League], that's fine with them. But the six-, seven-month education, online classes second semester. I don't know what that does for a young person."

"College is not for everybody," Pitino said. "So if a kid doesn't want to go to college, let him go to the pros. Let him go into the [D-League]. And if someone does want to go to college, let them go. We're still going to have great basketball teams."

Fair point, I feel. Since the NBA does have an established minor league these days, I think it should be a viable alternative to college for players coming out of high school. If you want to keep the age limit on the NBA Draft, have high schoolers go to the D-League first.

[NovU]

I always have been on the fence with subject. Because NBA has their own interest so it's up to them pretty much.

But it's hard to argue college is the only best place for stellar athletes. Emmanuel Mudiay had 12 million reasons to go to China League instead of college where he would have played for absolutely nothing. But twelve games and $1.2 million dollars later, it's easy to see why he made that decision.

[Jeffx]

I always have been on the fence with subject. Because NBA has their own interest so it's up to them pretty much.

But it's hard to argue college is the only best place for stellar athletes. Emmanuel Mudiay had 12 million reasons to go to China League instead of college where he would have played for absolutely nothing. But twelve games and $1.2 million dollars later, it's easy to see why he made that decision.

NovU, I've always hated the NCAA - to me, only FIFA and Congress are more corrupt. They still try pushing the lie that Division 1 basketball/football is "amateur athletics"...please. Look at the money March Madness generates - everybody gets paid(coaches, university presidents, networks, NCAA shills like Dick Vitale) except the cats doing the yeoman's work. Yes, a free college education is nothing to sneeze at, but that's a pittance compared to billions in revenue. If you're making money off my name, likeness & hard work, I want my cut - that's the American way.

The system's been broken for a long time, and needs to be fixed. Coach Pitino is right on the money.

[benji]

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[NovU]

The problem is bigger than itself. It's not on college level but it's basically entire economic and social structure in america.

NBA can't take in all those hundreds of undeveloped(mentally, physically, raw basketball talents) kids each year and pay them money to play ball and educate them thru childhood. It's not their responsibility nor their interest. It's business, protecting teams and its shareholders is a priority. So setting this aside...

You can't turn educational institutions into pro-teams and start bidding wars for every high school kids, pay them millions of dollars, allow corporations sponsors, so on. Also note that college personnel are NOT the only communist employers exploiting young kids. Media makes money talking and making issues out of them. Involved corporations and venues make money. Heck there are even individual analysts that make money. This basically is a giant industry based on exploitation on every level. Coaches and college personnel salary really are the tip of ice berg and scapegoats.

Right, this system's broken but it's beyond that. Issue is that it already is a pro league with employers not paying all employees. But is there really a fix to this other than start paying college kids huge money which practically is admitting they're pros and NCAA is a pro league? It's fugly either way.

If MSM didn't pay no attention and people didn't give shit about college sports but did more productive things for a change, this would be a no issue. March madness literally is a madness.

[benji]

But is there really a fix to this other than start paying college kids huge money which practically is admitting they're pros and NCAA is a pro league? It's fugly either way.

The NBA and NFL not being as insane about minor leagues.

The D-League is thankfully moving in that direction but still has dumb restrictions. And the NBA seems to want to add more to non-college athletes.

March Madness would still be a large business because people have irrational attachments to their schools, but you wouldn't have one-and-done D-League or better quality teams like Kentucky vaporizing teams with one future towel waver like WVU 35+ times a year.

One compromise could be to let players be drafted out of high school again, but they have to play in the D-League for two years, and then their three year rookie contract starts. So essentially the team options are automatically picked up and they're extension eligible after their second NBA season and RFA after their third.

[NovU]

Two things, benji.

One.

March Madness would still be a large business

This is the real issue. How do you fix this shit so players don't get raped and communists employers can't exploit them in their money making scheme. It's funny media frenzy is stirring things up as if they have no part in it, saying that coaches make millions, colleges make money, students are left out, while not touching any issues on root cause. It seems only way to shut everyone up is either by proper profit sharing or finding ways to make college ball less business for promotion of amateur spirit.

Two. We can talk what NBA needs to do this or that but at the end of the day they will move for their own interest only and rightfully. Why should they invest in D-league when they don't have to. Why should they draft 2 years early when they can do it 2 years later for more complete product. Sounds to me is a moral hypocrisy how anyone should go do their business just because no others wants to take the responsibility.

[benji]

Two. We can talk what NBA needs to do this or that but at the end of the day they will move for their own interest only and rightfully. Why should they invest in D-league when they don't have to.

They already are, all the smart teams own D-League franchises and it's still an unexplored market. Only the Spurs and Rockets have had their D-League teams implement specific styles of play and skill focuses that the parent team prizes. (Though the Grizzlies apparently will be doing it this starting next year with theirs. And Thunder are doing something with moving their team to OKC temporarily.)

If you're drafting a potential star do you want him at a university playing 20+ blowouts where nobody can guard him in a very different style of game than the NBA with limited practice time and all the campus distractions for a year or two when you could have him on your D-League team and bring him into the league knowing your teams system and having had your staff work on his game for two years?

[NovU]

If you're drafting a potential star do you want him at a university playing 20+ blowouts where nobody can guard him in a very different style of game than the NBA with limited practice time and all the campus distractions for a year or two when you could have him on your D-League team and bring him into the league knowing your teams system and having had your staff work on his game for two years?

It's a double edged sword. It comes down to Draft young to develop the way you want, or Draft older to see more grown up version of a player.

Rookie contracts are gold in this league, it's understandable teams value more NBA ready players.

[Andrew]

One compromise could be to let players be drafted out of high school again, but they have to play in the D-League for two years, and then their three year rookie contract starts. So essentially the team options are automatically picked up and they're extension eligible after their second NBA season and RFA after their third.

Agreed, I think that's a very fair and logical compromise. NBA teams get to take a chance on selecting a young player who's (presumably) already showing a lot of talent and promise, and they get to bring them into the fold after they've had some seasoning in the D-League. The players are able to start their professional careers and make some money, while being prepared for the big time and developing their game.

[benji]

I would like to see NCAA March Sadness as a real game.

It's a double edged sword. It comes down to Draft young to develop the way you want, or Draft older to see more grown up version of a player.

Rookie contracts are gold in this league, it's understandable teams value more NBA ready players.

NBA teams are reluctant to draft Juniors and Seniors in the First Round now, their upside is more limited and if they're in school for that long they obviously usually aren't star talents. And if they're OLD seniors who are 23/24 you're getting a player who is highly unlikely to ever improve. That's why they use second round picks on those guys to fill out benches. If they aren't tagging European players.

In the last five drafts 18 Juniors or Seniors have been taken in the lottery. Elfrid Payton (21), Doug McDermott (23), Victor Oladipo (21), C.J. McCollum (21), Kelly Olynk (22), Thomas Robinson (21), Damian Lillard (21), John Henson (21), Kemba Walker (21), Jimmer Fredette (22), Klay Thompson (21), the Morris Twins (22), Evan Turner (22), Wesley Johnson (23), Ekpe Udoh (23), Cole Aldrich (22), Patrick Patterson (21). Their primes are all 2-4 years away from their rookie season. There's good players here, but how many multiple All-NBAers are we getting out of this group, one or two? Possibly three. Most of these guys we already know what we're gonna get out of them.

Then there's drafting Freshmen: John Wall (19), Derrick Favors (18), DeMarcus Cousins (19), Kyrie Irving (19), Enes Kanter (19), Jonas Valacinuas (19), Anthony Davis (19), Michael Kidd-Gilchrist (18), Bradley Beal (19), Andre Drummond (18), Nerlens Noel (19), Alex Len (19), Andrew Wiggins (19), Jabari Parker (19), Joel Embiid (20), Julius Randle (19) or a younger Sophomore like Marcus Smart (20). Their primes are all 5-7 years away from their rookie season. We could see every single one of these players make multiple All-NBA teams. A lot of these guys are just now breaking out and we don't know their ceiling yet. Including one who could be the best player of his era.

ESPN and DraftExpress have one non-big man upperclassman near their lottery: Jerian Grant. (Who will be 22.)

[NovU]

Fair points.

But it also shows usefulness of college for the NBA, as argument can be made that playing at least one college season helps measuring value of the players. For instance if Kobe went to college for a season, would he still have been drafted in mid round?

Owners probably feel playing field's leveled and happy that they get to save scouting trips to high schools.

[benji]

Kobe went where he did because HS drafting was new AND his agent was threatening that he'd play in Italy if certain teams drafted him.

[Andrew]

Putting aside basketball and the benefits to the NCAA and the NBA for a moment, the other issue that comes up a lot is the matter of young players getting an education, something to fall back on if basketball doesn't pan out (or to keep the money coming in once their career is over, especially if they haven't been careful with it). However, I think we can take it as read that players who are one-and-done aren't really interested in that in the first place, and are only there because of the age limit. Those are the players who should be able to go to the D-League first (either after being drafted, or being eligible for the Draft after one year in the D-League) as an alternative to a year in college.

Now, if you still wanted to encourage players who have gone pro to get tertiary education in their own time and on their own dime, the same way a lot of people work full time but still study, then there's merit in that. I also think that anything that the league can do to encourage players to be careful with their money and prepare for life after professional basketball is for the best.

[benji]

College educations aren't anything to fall back on, especially what many players are getting their degrees in, or classes like those mentioned in John Oliver's segment.

There are exceptions like Adonal Foyle (magna cum laude in history) or Emeka Okafor (who actually graduated in three years with a finance degree with honors but stuck around to play basketball for another season and wound up winning a title) but the vast majority, even ones who never even sniff the pro leagues aren't getting something to fall back on from the "education" they're being "paid" with.

Now let me leave you with that old EA Sports saying, get the fuck out of my office.

[Jeffx]

One compromise could be to let players be drafted out of high school again, but they have to play in the D-League for two years, and then their three year rookie contract starts. So essentially the team options are automatically picked up and they're extension eligible after their second NBA season and RFA after their third.

Agreed, I think that's a very fair and logical compromise. NBA teams get to take a chance on selecting a young player who's (presumably) already showing a lot of talent and promise, and they get to bring them into the fold after they've had some seasoning in the D-League. The players are able to start their professional careers and make some money, while being prepared for the big time and developing their game.

I like it, but I'd make an exception for the rare cats who are NBA-ready straight out of high school (Moses Malone, KG, Lebron).

[benji]

I did the two-year thing because I know the league wants to add another year before they allow players in the league.

I suppose there could be some kind of standards they could meet to allow early promotion waivers by the NBA. Like when Amir Johnson and Terrence Jones were sent down and just tore the D-League completely apart. Imagine what a LeBron would do lol

[mp3]

I am all in favour for high school players jumping straight to the pros but I think the teams picking them shouldn't use such high draft picks to get them when they are better proven players ahead of them and the fact that not many players to come straight out of high school are nba players out the gate.

It took many years for players like Jermaine O'Neal to find his way in the league and learn his craft but he was able to do that without the pressure of being a lottery pick and expected to deliver right away.

[Andrew]

There are definitely times when teams should exercise more restraint, and when drafting high schoolers was really in vogue, teams did blow early lottery picks on a few busts in the hopes of getting the next KG, Kobe, or T-Mac. At the same time though, that's their gamble to take, and it's not as though drafting players out of college is a sure thing.

I think Michael Jordan's selections of Kwame Brown in 2001 and Adam Morrison in 2006 underline how teams are gambling either way. In hindsight, neither were good selections...obviously. But you can understand the reasoning. Drafting high schoolers was the in thing when Brown went number one, and it was only a matter of time before someone picked a seemingly promising high school prospect first overall. Morrison was a standout college player with three years experience at that level, seemingly a much safer pick than Brown was. Ironically, discounting memes and Morrison's two titles riding the bench for the Lakers, Brown has probably had the more successful career.

At the end of the day, you just don't know. I understand the desire - and need - for a system to be in place that gives everyone the best chance to succeed, encourages them to seek further education, and offers some sense of security to them, college programs, and NBA teams. Not everything is going to go perfectly, though; no matter what measures are in place, teams are going to make bad picks, some players just aren't going to make it at the NBA level...bad decisions will be made, even if they had merit at the time.

[NovU]

Here's my version of what happened.

High school picks generally turned out pretty well historically. I think more and more teams were realizing this is a good draft strategy and started looking towards high school draft pool. As benji said, why not draft them at younger age and develop them the way you want, it works well. This was possible because scouting generally has become better over the decade and you can spot NBA level of talents at young age even without college stage experience.

Evidently just prior to the banning of high school kids, the teams drafted asswhooping 10 high school players(most of them turned out to be good value). The number basically grew rapidly each year in 2k era. The league probably didn't like this rapidly growing trend and took an ultimate decision to just ban it all. Obviously this might not be the most fairest change to everyone but as far as the league was concerned, this change didn't really hurt anyone. Teams get to take on bit more matured players both mentally and physically which is saving $$$ and effort, gets to save trips to high schools which makes scouting ground smaller and competition simpler for the teams, and it wasn't like NBA talent pool was going to lack just because you can't draft high school kids and develop them one year early.

[benji]

They banned high schoolers (ironically as you note right after arguably the two best HS to NBA classes) because the risk reward was too high and few teams wanted to take that chance.

What they stupidly don't realize is that the same is true of drafting players a mere one year later. Marvin Williams was the consensus #1 player by every scout/mock/etc. in the 2005 Draft except for the fact that the Bucks wanted a center and thus went for #2 Bogut. Even though he was a sixth man in college and only ranked 11th in HS, his POTENTIAL was too alluring.

The 2006 Draft (first under the new rules) had five seniors and one junior go in the lottery. And just one freshman. Tyrus Thomas was the frosh. Adam Morrison, Shelden Williams, Brandon Roy, Randy Foye, J.J. Redick, Hilton Armstrong were the seniors and juniors.

The next year had six freshmen go in the lottery and just three non-Florida (who stayed to defend their title, so somewhat unique circumstances) junior/seniors. The freshmen were Greg Oden, Kevin Durant, Mike Conley, Brandan Wright, Spencer Hawes, Thaddeus Young. The junior-seniors were Jeff Green, Acie Law and Al Thornton. The Florida Juniors were Al Horford, Corey Brewer and Joakim Noah, two of which had been projected 2006 draftees until the team decided to defend their title.