Losers Guide to Winning

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Losers Guide to Winning

Postby benji on Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:39 am

Or: How one analytics-mad franchise learned to stop worrying and love the bomb

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12318 ... de-winning
On draft day 2013, when Hinkie agreed to trade Jrue Holiday, a 23-year-old All-Star, for Nerlens Noel and a protected 2014 first-rounder, a rival Eastern Conference GM turned to his war room and declared: "They're crazy." Thaddeus Young, then a Sixers forward, tweeted one word: "OMG."

If the Sixers were trying to contend in the first year of Hinkie's tenure, these would be logical responses. But they weren't. And the fact that Noel had torn his left ACL four months earlier presented Philly with a two-pronged opportunity that no one else had the stomach to pursue. There was the price of the big man's talent, which was now discounted because of injury. (Noel had once been the projected top pick.) Then there was the injury timetable, which was now that much more palatable because, well, the Sixers had designs on the lottery in 2014 too. (Hinkie put Noel on what can only be called a "conservative" rehab program, sitting him all season as the team went 19-63.)

So when the 2014 draft came along and the Sixers had the No. 3 pick, perhaps it shouldn't have been surprising that Hinkie picked Joel Embiid, a would-be Hakeem Olajuwon, just as he had nabbed Noel. A 7-footer who might be the best prospect in the draft? Whose injury (a stress fracture in his right foot) dropped him across so many draft boards but not Hinkie's? Who wouldn't be asked to win as a rookie? Check, check and check.

But injured players aren't the only way to invest in the future and divest from the present. Consider that with the 2014 first-rounder that Hinkie got for Holiday, he picked Elfrid Payton, a point guard coveted by Orlando, at No. 10. Hinkie then flipped Payton to Orlando for pick No. 12, a 2015 second-rounder and a 2017 first-rounder. With that No. 12 pick, Hinkie nabbed 20-year-old Dario Saric, a 6-foot-10 Croatian who has already been named the FIBA Europe Young Player of the Year twice.

Another front office might have been afraid to select a player who might not come to the U.S. for two years. But here, as with injury, the cost of a young, foreign centerpiece not immediately playing for the Sixers is exceptionally discounted. Even better, an NBA team doesn't even pay an overseas pick who has yet to suit up for it, meaning that the rest of the planet can effectively serve as a free minor league system. Hinkie, who has modeled exchange rates for foreign-to-domestic stats, has four other prospects -- all second-rounders -- still ripening in Turkey, Germany, China and Australia. For free.

As Brown says, "We talk often about having a very, very long lens." Philadelphia doesn't need their help -- doesn't want their help -- just yet.

The CBA is an all-important, demoralizingly confusing document that the Sixers scrutinize like billionaires searching for a tax loophole. So when the team cleared the balance sheets -- the payroll is now a meager $42.5 million, lowest in the league by $11 million -- it did so knowing certain opportunities in the market would follow.

Today, Philadelphia is so unencumbered by the current salary cap ($63.1 million) and luxury tax ($76.8 million) that it sits below the cap floor ($56.8 million). But many franchises struggle to create financial flexibility on a regular basis. Enter Hinkie, who is more than happy to take on others' contractual waste -- and dump it himself -- all for a small, negligible fee: a future second-round pick.

Throughout league history, the second-rounder has been the penny stock of hoops, the spiritual brother of baseball's player to be named later. But they're not valued that way by these Sixers, who collect the things like bingeing hoarders, amassing them via salary dumps and throw-ins on other deals. In last year's draft, Hinkie acquired or traded five second-round picks, not including his own; this June he'll have the rights to four more from other teams. Hell, he's acquired one for 2016, two for 2018, two for 2019 and one for 2020 already. Nobody else in the NBA has an extra 2020 pick -- very possibly because said pick might presently be 12 years old.

But to Philly, any second-rounder is both an embryonic trade chip and a lottery ticket that jumps in value come draft day, when some team will inevitably take a shining to a specific prospect without having the picks to draft him. When that happens, the Bank of Hinkie will be there -- ready to flip the second-rounder for cash (and profit); or to package it for another asset (and profit); or to keep it himself, hoping to sign the next Chandler Parsons, the eventual $46 million forward whom the Rockets drafted 38th overall in 2011 (and profit).

Consider Jerami Grant, whom Philly took 39th out of Syracuse in June. Grant signed a four-year deal that guaranteed his first two seasons for $885,000 and $845,000, respectively, some $300,000 more annually than the league-minimum salary of many second-rounders. That financial security was catnip to him and no sweat to the Sixers, who certainly have cap space on their delayed production schedule. But the key twist -- just as it was with Parsons -- is that the forward's third and fourth years are neither guaranteed nor big raises. This template led guard K.J. McDaniels, the 32nd pick in June, to reject Hinkie's four-year offer in favor of a one-year, unguaranteed deal. And by those latter two seasons, when the Sixers do plan to spend, Grant will be something very different: either an underpriced keeper -- "He's one of those guys, for me, that makes me want to hug Sam," Brown recently gushed -- or someone you can cut loose at zero cost. In both cases, he will be a team-friendly asset and maybe one day, if Hinkie plays his cards right, a detail in a PowerPoint slide.

Show up to a January shootaround at Wells Fargo Center, 120 minutes before tip-off, and two things quickly become apparent. First: These Sixers are conspicuously long-limbed -- 10 of the 14 athletes boast a wingspan at least six inches longer than their height. Second: With the remarkable exception of forward Robert Covington -- an undrafted, sweet-shooting 24-year-old with a 7-2 wingspan -- approximately none of them can, you know, shoot.

This is no accident. It remains scientifically impossible to develop arm length, an underrated characteristic on defense. ("Sam is very studied in regards to that," Brown says.) But as Spurs wing Kawhi Leonard has verified, it is possible to grow a prospect's shooting ability over time. And Philly, forcing turnovers at a league-high 15.6 percent through the All-Star break but shooting a league-low 41 percent, is incentivized to wait on such a large-scale renovation. If the Sixers happen to have one of the worst offenses in history in the meantime, boosting their odds in the draft lottery? That's no accident either. The 2008-09 Thunder pulled off a version of this with Russell Westbrook, who led the league in turnovers as a rookie point guard as the team went 23-59. The next year, Oklahoma City took Harden at No. 3.

Hinkie, as part of his drive to measure everything, tracks each shot his players take, not just in games but also shootarounds and practices. "You can't hide," Richardson says. Some of the tallying is by hand; some of it is noted off video. Brown uses the data to see which players "are investing time into development," he says, and doles out playing time and in-game privileges accordingly. "It's crazy," Noel says. "They'll tell me what my free throw percentage is in practice. And I'm like, 'What?!'"

It is possible that no team takes the structure of its pregame shootarounds more seriously. The players arrive in scheduled 15-minute waves of two or three and promptly begin to sweat under the supervision of shooting coach Eugene Burroughs. On one recent night in Philadelphia, Hinkie observes from a sideline as a platoon of assistants, video coordinators and basketball-ops guys waits on the sidelines with MacBooks bearing video and spreadsheets. When each wave finishes its tailored drills -- in Brown's system, for instance, bigs focus exclusively on baseline jumpers and rolling to the basket -- the players sit down with a designated coach, who walks them through preselected clips from the last game. It's like jump shot triage. "They really hit us over the head with percentages," Thomas says, "and what type of shots they want us to take."

Like Houston, which shoots the most 3s in the league, Philadelphia fetishizes the importance of being lethal from behind the arc. Just as the title-winning Spurs fetishized it last season, and the playoff-bound Warriors, Hawks and Trail Blazers fetishize it now. But that trait can also be purchased and supplemented, Hinkie knows, when production is no longer delayed: Think of nomadic snipers like Ray Allen and Mike Miller; now think of what their spacing could do for a Nerlens Noel. Until then, the Sixers are second to last in 3-point percentage, at 31 percent, while still attempting more 3s than all but 10 teams.

Not coincidentally, Philly also plays at the sixth-highest pace in the league -- all the better to up its players' counting stats, however flawed, in case any buyers are vaguely paying attention. Carter-Williams might not be traded, but if he is, rest assured that his Rookie of the Year award -- which he won while hoisting 15.1 shots a game -- will factor into his new employer's calculus. Or take the aforementioned Thaddeus Young, of OMG fame. After Hinkie took over, the forward took a career-high 16.2 shots and 3.7 3s a game, producing a career-high 17.9 points despite shooting a career-low 45.4 percent overall. That summer Philly flipped Young to Minnesota for two players and a 2015 first-round pick. "The team I'm coaching now isn't the team I'll be coaching a few years from now," Brown admits. "Some people will make it. Some people won't."
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby shadowgrin on Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:37 pm

This made me cry. So beautiful.



Guess MCW's game wasn't improving even during practice so he got his ass shipped.
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby NovU on Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:28 pm

With Jrue Holiday, I thought "Fair enough. Maybe they saw no future with that kid so they want to rebuild." But trading away MCW and KJ for bag of chips kinda finally turned me off. Ok... maybe MCW wasn't improving at the ideal pace but there were rumours that they were looking to trade him during off season. What the hell? They also turned promising rookie KJ into Canaan. In both cases, they seem to have given up on young talent way too early. Hmm...
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby benji on Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:30 pm

I paid five bucks for two years of ESPN the Magazine on Amazon just for Insider, but I read the NBA articles in the mag sometimes. Other than a short little piece about the Mavs in the opening section, this was seriously the best thing they've published in probably 18 months.
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby NovU on Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:40 pm

You can't seriously glorify Hinkie and his result though.


I just don't like it. Top-10, 96th-percentile-type player is just another fancy word for 'star', every team wants a couple and knows that they need them to contend. At the end of the day, Hinkie's way is no different from many other teams in the league but through extreme player selection, and extreme saving(for $$$). And he's deluded if he thinks a star player conveniently will fall on his lap while he keeps underselling his assets(KJ, QMI2017). You are also having damage control to deal with on every level: league has been asking about their intention, made the team less desirable for the players league wide, reputation is in ruins, etc.
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby shadowgrin on Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:37 pm

NovU wrote:underselling his assets(KJ, QMI2017)

Yeah, because you have stats on McDaniels performance in practices and games that the Sixers don't have, right?
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby NovU on Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:49 pm

What a profound way to measure player's ability, stats for practice sessions!

They must have been doing it for awhile now for every draft prospects as well. Evidently they turn their draftees to $$$ and more picks. Perhaps they should use those data to draft players that they'll keep.
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby shadowgrin on Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:58 pm

Brown uses the data to see which players "are investing time into development,"


"The team I'm coaching now isn't the team I'll be coaching a few years from now," Brown admits. "Some people will make it. Some people won't."




Boo-hoo if McDaniels isn't good enough and got his ass traded.


It's good to know that despite the tanking the Sixers still have standards on their players to achieve during this rebuilding phase and any player not living up to those standards get shipped out as MCW found out.
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby NovU on Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:12 pm

So you must be telling me KJ didn't invest time into development and it has nothing to do with management's stupidity like giving him a hinkie special but it's just matter of some people will make it and some won't based on stats from practice.
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby shadowgrin on Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:23 pm

He's a FA this offseason, why would I want to waste significant cap money on a player who wants more just because of one decent season on a terrible team and have below average shooting percentage (excluding FTs)?
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby NovU on Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:27 pm

What that gotta do with practice stats and investing time into development.
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby shadowgrin on Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:33 pm

The Sixers know something about his shooting in games and practice more than we do, Sixers deemed him not good enough for the money he could be asking so he gets his ass traded.

He's not a good shooter, he's not good at making his own shots either based on his tov% being close to his usg%, so what is McDaniels even good at for the Sixers to give him the money he wants and not trade him?
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby NovU on Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:37 pm

Title of the thread is really suiting.
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby shadowgrin on Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:43 pm

So much for this then...

NovU wrote:Discussion is encouraged.




This is why we can't have nice things in the forum.
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby Mandich on Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:45 pm

Its encouraging that they're shipping players who aren't developing. For a minute I thought they didn't have a plan and were doing this randomly for the lolz.
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby NovU on Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:58 pm

Ur Boi Bangs Chol wrote:So much for this then...

NovU wrote:Discussion is encouraged.




This is why we can't have nice things in the forum.


I thought you were arguing for this nonsense.

Ur Boi Bangs Chol wrote:
NovU wrote:underselling his assets(KJ, QMI2017)

Yeah, because you have stats on McDaniels performance in practices and games that the Sixers don't have, right?




But your actual argument seem to have turned into that Hinkie's been doing a good job sending off crap players like KJ. Couldn't you have just said it so to save all the trouble?
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby shadowgrin on Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:55 pm

Do you always need a 'for dummies' version to understand how all the individual context fit together into a single whole idea?


Sixers gather their own data based on practices and games of their own players.

Management and coaching staff evaluate that data to determine the value of their own player if the player deserves the time and resources to be developed or give him the 'Hinkie'.

Player X is rated to be deserving of the Hinkie.

Player X doesn't want the Hinkie Special and wants the dosh he thinks he deserves.

Sixers deem that they can live without the services and current skill set of Player X so they trade him now to get replacement value. Hinkied.



Menopauss wrote:For a minute I thought they didn't have a plan and were doing this randomly for the lolz.

I would still enjoy that one.

It's like finally seeing a real life testing of the trades/stock piling of picks that one would do in 2K or Live.

(videogame) Theory -> Practice -> Science!
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby NovU on Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:16 pm

:facepalm2: Why all that junk any idiot would know?

So you had no argument. Unless... your opinion is they do no wrong because they do their evaluation so don't criticize about players they trade, draft, all that junk they do?

Just amazing...
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby shadowgrin on Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:42 pm

Not at all.

Deal is only the Sixers know how they interpret their data, not one of us here knows the exact details of how they do it. That alone is enough to make any discussion of it here worthless because all of us basically have no idea what we're talking about, even NBA basketball in general.

But that's not how opinions work.

Sure, you can give your opinion that's critical of their methods even if you have no idea on the details and just on your own assumptions of it but you need to explain based on reason why it's stupid instead of just saying "QMI..." :roll:


I already said my piece on why trading McDaniels isn't bad at all based on my own assumptions of the Sixers plan.
Ur Boi Bangs Chol wrote:He's not a good shooter, he's not good at making his own shots either based on his tov% being close to his usg%, so what is McDaniels even good at for the Sixers to give him the money he wants and not trade him?

So far the only reason or assumption you gave for the Sixers "underselling assets" is "QMI2017", not even the crapshoot that is 'potential'.
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby benji on Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:55 pm

The Sixers haven't traded any assets of value for nothing. MCW could be a great third guard and probably has a good chance of making an all-star team but they flipped him for a potential top five or three pick.

They got McDaniels with a second round pick, then flipped him and his 10.7 PER, 91 ORtg, etc. for a replacement second round pick and a short look at Canaan.

They took Alexy Shved who they got in the Love deal, turned him into a second round pick, along with a player they then flipped to the Clippers for Cenk Akyol. They just dealt Ayol to the Nuggets for something called Chukwudiebere Maduabaum, JaVale McGee's contract and a first rounder.

So that's two first rounders and two second rounders they can use later to trade. Meanwhile this season they also dealt two guys who wouldn't be on a playoff roster and a future 12th man for three more 2nd rounders. And before the season they took on Bogans contract for yet another second rounder.

Oh and they got a first rounder from Cleveland in the Love trade.

That's all THIS season, and the only real "value" they lost is MCW. (Thaddeus Young wasn't going to resign.)

They still have Noel, Covington, Jerami Grant and Wroten with Embiid and Saric on the horizon. Plus whatever they get out of all these picks including their own. Probably can bring back Sims fairly cheap.

So you have all that, plus MCW and McDaniels as known commodities locked down into contracts and you gain a couple wins? vs. all that plus two more draft picks which have tremendously fluctuating value.

This is the same method Morey used to build the Rockets btw, only Hinkie is trading the assets before they enter the league which actually gives him potentially more leverage in deals.
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby NovU on Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:00 pm

Grin. First of all you can shut up already about Sixers doing their job: interpret data, evaluation, whatever the shit you have 100% faith in. It was a given, you didn't have to go post 3-5 long elaboration posts. Have some faith in humanity, people aren't as dumb as you believe.

I also heard your defense on KJ trade(only feasible argument you presented). I disagree. It was one of many management screw ups in recent franchise history. Time will tell.
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby NovU on Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:29 pm

Ahh, benji's post is refreshing...

benji wrote:The Sixers haven't traded any assets of value for nothing. MCW could be a great third guard and probably has a good chance of making an all-star team but they flipped him for a potential top five or three pick.

According to spree the pick is:

2015 - top5 protected
2016 - top3 protected
2017 - top3 protected
2018 - unprotected

Advanced stats don't love MCW but he's still a second year player with great potential. He seems to be able to single-handedly win games occasionally and is a stat stuffer. That's rare in this league. What are the chance of landing a similar prospect with the pick from one of above years? (draft picks are overvalued in today's league btw)

As for KJ, I think it was a case of "get the first button right" which apparently gone wrong. Instead they got stuck in a situation where they were supposed to sign him for 3-4mil season in the upcoming offseason(which isn't too bad btw but they traded for Canaan & 2nd round). His stats aren't looking good at the moment but he's a defense priority guy anyway, with decent potential on offense. And... he's a rookie ffs.

I thought these two guys fit the bill right for the rebuilding franchise like 76ers.



benji, do you not agree the moves seem bit rushed?
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby shadowgrin on Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:45 pm

NovU wrote:people aren't as dumb as you believe.

I don't think that, that is until I read some of the mind numbing posts here in the guise of reasonable "discussion" that even a 9 year-old would laugh at.



NovU wrote:It was one of many management screw ups in recent franchise history. Time will tell.

How can anyone even refute such a detailed and perfect elaboration!
Let the waiting commence then...



So much for 'discussion'.
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby NovU on Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:55 pm

I think I'm done with you mr forum troll. benji kicked in.

Still LoL at your "Teams do evaluation" argument, then going on paragraph long elaboration how teams do their evaluation. What was all that info for? Well, there you made your pointless point. :lol:
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Re: Losers Guide to Winning

Postby shadowgrin on Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:09 pm

I did it because some idiot can't comprehend how it could possibly work...

NovU wrote:What a profound way to measure player's ability, stats for practice sessions!
NovU wrote:What that gotta do with practice stats and investing time into development.


...instead of me just going LOL when I miss the point and don't even know what I posted before. :roll:



:cry: :( :cry: :(
Last edited by shadowgrin on Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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