Sitcoms - Have they gotten worse?

I'm on holidays from uni at the moment, so I've been watching a bunch of different "retro" sitcoms. At the moment the regular channel 11 lineup, you have Family Ties, Cheers, Happy Days... then a show like Becker comes on, and you realise that not all older sitcoms are that great.

Not liking Two and a Half Men, Mike and Molly or Two Broke Girls that much, I begin to wonder; have the quality of sitcoms gotten progressively worse? Or is it simply that I don't see myself in that demographic that watches those shows anymore? If they did get worse, when did it all start going downhill?

Here's a list of made of the different sitcoms I've seen and how I rate them. I'm probably missing a few, but these were the ones that I could think of at this point. Keep in mind that this list is made of show that have a laugh track. It would have been much longer otherwise:

Shows I Like

Seinfeld

The best of the bunch. Four classic characters and a bunch of great recurring characters (Puddy, Newman, Mr Peterman) and so many great moments.

Frasier

Really witty show with an excellent cast. One thing I always liked about Frasier was that the characters seemed to acknowledge when someone made a funny comment. About a year ago they had a Frasier marathon on Foxtel and to my surprise, it still held up pretty well.

Cheers

A great show that saw quite a few successful careers come from it. It's hard to believe that Kelsey Grammer (Frasier) ended up with the great show and Ted Danson had the truly appalling one (Becker), because on the strength of their characters, I would have guessed it the other way around.

Happy Days

Before Ron Howard left the show and Fonzi's "Jumping the Shark", Happy Days was great. A lot of it is corny as hell, but it's still a show I'll watch and enjoy if it's on.

Fresh Prince of Bel Air

Although it's rather dated, there are still moments in this show I find absolutely hilarious. It's hard to go wrong with Will Smith and the guy who did the voice of Shredder.

Family Ties

A recent addition to my list, since it's on in the afternoons. While it has a nice, wholesome value to it, it's also pretty witty as well. I find it hard to dislike anything Michael J Fox is in.

The Big Bang Theory

I have to admit, I've had a love-hate relationship with this show in the past. Some parts of it are really contrived (which I guess is to be expected in modern sitcoms), but overall I really enjoy it. Sheldon and Raj get some great lines.

Just Shoot Me

I think I ended up watching this one out of default because it was after new episodes of the Simpsons. Still, I ended up really enjoying it for a long time. I never knew how it finished though.

Home Improvement

Probably more of a nostalgia thing, but it was one of many great sitcoms produced in the early 90s.

Golden Girls

This only became a recent favourite of mine too, since it was airing just after I got home from uni.

Family Matters

I'm guessing this would be a show that would be in my "Shows I Find Less Tolerable Now", but since it spawned the classic Steve Urkel character, it's in the like list.

Married... With Children

I get the sense that this is the show that Two and a Half Men is trying to be. However MWC is far more witty and has an excellent ensemble cast (I think I even liked it more when Jefferson was Marcy's husband).

M*A*S*H

This show is on the list since it has a laugh track, even though it's really hard to classify the genre of this show. It somehow finds a way to have laugh out loud moments, along with really dramatic ones as well and make it work.

Father Ted

This is probably the funniest show on the list... and I almost left it off! There wasn't a single episode that I didn't find hilarious. It was unfortunately cut short.

Black Books

Short-lived considering how great it was, but I'm kind of glad it ended before it got stale.

IT Crowd

The third excellent show that Graham Lineham produced.

As Time Goes By

Very much on the cheesey side, but I enjoy it.

Newsradio

After recently watching a few episodes, this one jumped to my like list. I'm a fan of both Phil Hartman and Joe Rogan, so I'm guessing that's probably the main reason. It was actually a pretty good show as well I think.



Shows I Think Are Tolerable

Spin City

I kind of struggled with my placing of this one. With Michael J Fox, it's in my like section. Sans MJF, not so much. I guess it's on the bubble.

Rules of Engagement

Patrick Warburton definitely makes this show tolerable, even though the supporting cast is pretty decent.

King of Queens

I really only find this show tolerable because of Patton Oswalt, but unlike a lot of the shows coming out, it can often hold my interest for the entire episode.





The Shows I Don't Like

Two and a Half Men

I've given this show MANY chances to grow on me. After several episodes, I realised it'd never happen. I gotta give them a little credit though, they somehow made Charlie Sheen the most likeable character in the show.

Two Broke Girls

I almost blamed Chuck Lorre again for what I thought was another awful creation, but it turns out he didn't create this show. Still, it seems to follow a similar formula to Two and A Half Men.

Mike and Molly

It's not that I find this show overly offensive, but outside of the "it's funny because they're fat" kind of jokes, it really doesn't have much substance to me.

Becker

This was one of the shows a friend of mine always liked and was always getting me to watch when I was over at his house. I've actually mentioned this show before as the one that started the decline of Sitcoms, but I don't really have any evidence to support that. Pretty much every episode followed a formula of John Becker eating crow, then going on a rant after someone rubs his face in it. Just an awful show.

Hot in Cleveland

I've only seen one episode of this show, so I guess I'm not the best judge of it. From what I've seen though, it was rather forgettable.

Will and Grace

Never understood the popularity of it.

Two Guys, A Girl and A Pizza Place

I thought about putting this one in the tolerate list, but now I think about it, there were far more episodes that annoyed me than ones I found amusing.

The Brady Bunch

Again, never understood the popularity on any level. I like a lot of things ironically (I'm a big fan of the movei 'the Room'), but the Brady Bunch isn't one of them.

$#*! My Dad Says

Proof that a show shouldn't be based off a twitter feed.

Dharma and Greg

Ugh...




Shows I Find More Tolerable Now

Roseanne

During it's original run, I dismissed it because I didn't like Roseanne Barr. As I watch it now, I realise that it's still better than most of the sitcoms being produced at the moment. It also has a great supporting cast as well.





Shows I Find Less Tolerable Now

Friends

There's a lot of people I know that think Friends is a classic, but I think it's dated terribly. It's gotten to the point where I'm wondering why I even cared about those characters in the first place.

Everybody Loves Raymond

I have seen many episodes of this because I used to think it was a funny show. Watching it now though, I realised how terrible it really is. Every character is so extreme, but not in a good way like Seinfeld or It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia.

8 Simple Rules For Dating My Teenage Daughter

I actually haven't watched it since it was originally aired, but considering my main purpose for watching was because of Kaley Cuoco, I'm predicting that the show itself hasn't stood the test of time.

The Nanny

Like Just shoot Me, it was after new episodes of the Simpsons (during the Golden period too), so I almost liked it by default. Unfortunately, it got airtime after that period and I realised I only liked it because of that association. On a side note; was anyone else weirded out when they saw Gracie's tits in the first episode of Californication?


------


Anyway, let me know what you guys think.

Married...with Children owns all.

phpBB [video]

lololololol FUCK NO

You're living in the era of epic sitcoms.

As much as I will forever love Seinfeld and Frasier, they got jacked.

Newsradio could exist today. The rest?

Will and Grace is actually alright, Debra Messings best work is Ned and Stacy.

I'll do a rundown, others can come in and bitch me out.

Scrubs - Amazing? No, but solidly written early on. Bill Lawrence did Spin City with J. Fox as well.
Curb Your Enthusiasm - Seinfeld, done better.
Undeclared - Could do worse!
The Office - The ancestor to so many laugh-track free shows we enjoy today.
The Larry Sanders Show - Brilliant. No, beyond brilliant.
Better Off Ted - If you don't watch this, you're basically repeating the holocaust.
Arrested Development - This too.
It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia - Seinfeld taken to its conclusions.
Cougar Town - The best show which has the scariest title to you. Look for the thread here. Become one of us. One of us.
The League - Okay, maybe this is the Seinfeld heir.
Louie - Not a sitcom.
30 Rock - Take SNL, make it a sitcom and then make it well-written with good characters.
Bored To Death - Season two.
Increasingly Poor Decisions of Todd Margaret - You probably can't handle this.
Don't Trust the Bitch in Apartment 23 - Or this.
Parks and Recreation - And never this.

Now did you also want animated? I probably forgot things too.

And Becker was better than a lot of things you thought were good. Good writing.

I think there is a certain amount of nostalgia at work here. While there is a lot of rubbish in terms of sitcoms these days, I think there were a lot of shows that came and went during the 90s that were just as bad or worse. I think both eras have had some outstanding shows that stand out, with a collection of very watchable ones.

Looking at some of the current shows first...

I actually hold The Big Bang Theory in fairly high esteem, right up there with the rest of my all-time favourites. The characters are likeable and sympathetic, it has some really good lines and I like the way it embraces the geek culture. Yes, there are jokes at the expense of that culture, but it's done with affection rather than being smug and mean-spirited. It's accessible without being too shallow.

Same goes for How I Met Your Mother. The framing device is clever and quite well-used, also acting as something of a safeguard against continuity errors that often occur over time with long running series with story arcs. Again, very good lines, some very funny moments, and characters that are very likeable. I like the up-beatness of the show and the relatable nostalgia of memories of fun times with close friends, though they show has had its darker moments in the last couple of seasons and handled them very well. I think it's a really good evolution of sitcoms centred around a group of friends. It's not always deep, but it's a really good show in my book and it's become one of my all-time favourites.

As far as Two and a Half Men, Mike and Molly and Two Broke Girls are concerned...I'm not actually a fan, but I don't think they're irredeemable. Well, in some ways, at any rate. Two and a Half Men has some pretty good innuendo and one-liners and the first couple of seasons weren't terrible. They certainly weren't great, but they were good enough for a lazy channel surfing night in front of the TV. Had it stopped there it would've been an OK vehicle for Charlie Sheen that probably ran just long enough. As it is, it's dragged on too long with characters that are really unsympathetic and a concept that didn't have a long enough shelf life for more than a few seasons. I'd place the latter two shows in the same category, though Two Broke Girls actually has some potential. It's not one I'd seek out to watch, but something I find watchable when vegging out and flipping around in ad breaks.

Conversely, I'm not a fan of shows like 30 Rock, The Office, Parks and Recreation or Modern Family, but I do actually think they're really good shows, from what I've seen anyway. I'm just not a big fan of that style of show so I can't really get into them, but I do find them enjoyable on the occasions that I do catch an episode (or part thereof)...more so The Office and Modern Family. However, I think we're going to see more and more of these work com and mockumentary style of comedies over the next few years, leading to the genre being overdone and stale in short order.

Looking back at some older series...

I am going to disagree with you a bit here, though definitely not on all points.

I still do think Friends is a classic and it does hold up, though certain aspects of it haven't aged well. It feel victim to a common problem of long runners as the characters drifted a little too far away from what made them entertaining and likeable in the first place; Flanderization, for the Tropers in the audience. The early seasons featured some very sharp writing, more interesting and relatable characters, good story arcs...in the beginning, they handled the Ross and Rachel stuff just right, keeping them apart long enough for the humour, emotion and story to all work. Even the break up, the "we were on a break" stuff, was pretty good and made the audience take sides in what I find to be an interesting way.

They muddled it up in later years though, milked it a bit too much and all the characters became a little too one dimensional. They found certain jokes worked and like a lot of shows, eventually the characters became too much about those jokes. The later seasons still produced good episodes and some funny moments and I did like the finale, but it certainly did make some mistakes along the way. I also think that How I Met Your Mother has since found a way to do certain things better with that style and concept, but I still like Friends. I definitely get why you've soured on it of course, but I still rate it.

Here's my potentially controversial comment early on in the discussion...I feel that Seinfeld is a bit overrated. Not overrated in the sense of it not being a classic and one of the best sitcoms of all-time, because it absolutely is. I feel it's a bit overrated in the way I see a fair amount of people use it as the yardstick for the way all comedies should be. Even assuming that Seinfeld was perfect - it wasn't, as great as it was - it's still just one style, one way of doing things that really worked because it was a signature style of Jerry Seinfeld and Larry David. It was great and it is still one of my favourites, but it's not perfect and gets a free pass on a lot of things other sitcoms don't.

Married... With Children is a show that I think is very underrated, because it was kind of groundbreaking in establishing the dysfunctional family formula and was just damn funny and entertaining. It wasn't always particularly clever, though usually managed to be reasonably witty and arguably got better the more cartoonish and over the top it became. It also handled its characters very well. I tend to prefer shows with likeable and sympathetic characters and that doesn't really describe the Bundys, however the way the universe was out to get them, making them the ultimate underdogs, combined with some really funny one liners, actually made them characters you could cheer for.

M*A*S*H is one of my absolute favourites, one of the few series I don't think ever did a terrible episode. They had some ordinary and forgettable ones, but I don't think any of their 251 episodes were downright awful. They also capped it off with a fantastic finale. It gets maligned for its politics and preachy nature, but I feel that's often exaggerated and it was at least handled by people who had enough smarts to explore those issues in a comedy series. They also had some innovative episodes, like the "Interview" episodes, "Dreams" and "Point of View" to name just a few.

Frasier is another one I'd put in the "never had an awful episode" category...at least, not that I can remember. Just a fantastic show and probably the best and most successful spinoff in history, unless you consider The Simpsons to be a spinoff of The Tracey Ullman Show or its own shorts. I haven't watched Cheers nearly as much but I do like it too. I think Frasier ended up being the better show but perhaps I just haven't seen enough of Cheers.

Two shows that I disagree with you on are Home Improvement and Becker...not completely, but I actually don't rate them that far apart. Becker I thought was mediocre at worst, it maybe ran a couple of seasons longer than it should have but it had its moments. It didn't do a bad job of doing what I was talking about earlier with Married...with Children, keeping a pretty unlikeable character tolerable by having the world out to get them. It was formulaic though but I feel the same could be said about Home Improvement. I didn't watch or like it all that much growing up and catching a few episodes on Foxtel recently, I'd say my opinion hasn't changed much. I prefer Tim Allen's stand-up, to be honest. But both are decent enough in my book.

I'm kind of with you on The Nanny, though I don't think I like or dislike it much more than I did when it first aired. It was alright, kinda funny, kinda forgettable at the same time. A few episodes or moments from key episodes stand out in my memory but it certainly doesn't crack my top ten or anything, probably not even my top 25. I like Kevin James' stand-up and King of Queens is pretty enjoyable, though seeing it again in recent years reminded me that Carrie is kind of unlikeable.

Speaking of which...Everybody Loves Raymond. It does hold up, it is funny, but I wouldn't call it a favourite. That may be because it has one of the least sympathetic casts of any show that has intended to portray its characters sympathetically. Ironically, the character who I think we're supposed to sympathise with most - Debra - can be one of the shrillest and unlikeable characters on the whole show. Will & Grace is kind of the same for me. Funny dialogue including some great innuendo and one liners, but a cast that's hard to cheer for. Watchable, fairly good shows, but I certainly don't love them.

Dharma and Greg is one of the few shows that I feel Family Guy was completely justified in ripping on and actually did a decent job of taking shots at, though in all fairness in the last few seasons they've probably produced much worse episodes.

I have to agree with you when it comes to Roseanne. I wasn't a huge fan when it originally aired but having caught a few episodes on Foxtel in the past year or so, it's actually better than I remembered. I wouldn't rush out and buy the DVDs or anything, but it's an enjoyable show to catch in repeats. Similar story for Newsradio and Spin City, I didn't watch them religiously during their initial run but I do remember enjoying them. Good shows, all three.

A few others...

There'll be British ones here, too. Have to agree with you on As Time Goes By and The IT Crowd as well, the first I remember watching a lot of with my folks growing up and the second being a really good recent show.

The Drew Carey Show...I'm biased here because Drew Carey is one of my favourite comedians, but I think it's terribly underrated. It was funny and entertaining in the conventional sense like a lot of other hits of that era, but it was also fairly innovative with its "What's wrong with this episode?" series and the live episodes which crossed over with Whose Line Is It Anyway?, along with some other specials that broke the fourth wall or got creative. Some really good musical numbers, great lines, memorable characters that were likeable, at times very dark and cynical humour...really good show. I hope they find a way to release more seasons on DVD.

Blackadder. An absolute classic. Rowan Atkinson is a comic legend so it kind of goes without saying but pretty much everyone involved with the show is worthy of that title as well. Once again, a fundamentally unlikeable and sympathetic character is made entertaining and oddly heroic because they're that damn funny and the universe always seems to work against them. Having each series focus on a different generation of Blackadder was also a very good idea, allowing the character to be tweaked and put into different situations to get the most out of historical jokes. A masterpiece...British brevity is probably the worst you can say about it, though the first series was probably the weakest.

Another all-time favourite of mine is Red Dwarf, which actually saw a three part special a couple of years ago and a new series is coming out next year. Fantastic news as it was and still is a great show. The low budget sets and effects of the early days actually add to the charm, as it was always about the jokes and the characters, which have always been strong. A lot of fans dislike the later seasons but I'm hard pressed to find any episodes that I outright dislike. The American pilot was supposedly pretty bad and the clips I've seen of it on the DVDs back that up, but the show that was actually made is awesome.

Scrubs cops a bit of flak but I rate it up there. Once again, it fell victim to Flanderization with some character regression in the later episodes, too many lessons quickly forgotten by the characters and at times it seemed like the writers forgot what made certain characters entertaining. I haven't watched much of it in a while, I've given it a bit of a break but it's still one of my favourites, in my opinion one of the better comedies in the last decade with its imagination sequences and memorable recurring supporting characters. We didn't need that postscript season, though.

That 70s Show is one I got into late but ended up really liking. Its earlier seasons are definitely the strongest, though it remained (in my opinion) a very good show up until the eighth season where they had to replace Topher Grace and thus wrote Eric out. Like Scrubs, they didn't need to do that postscript season. In some ways it was kind of a run of the mill sitcom, but it had some creative ideas like "The Circle" (great for some rapid fire jokes as well as advancing the plot) and they made good use of split screen conversations, usually contrasting conversations on the same topic between the guys and the girls. Perhaps a little underappreciated, I certainly like it any rate.

Running down a list of some classic Britcoms...One Foot in the Grave, Keeping Up Appearances and Are You Being Served? are all memorable for me. British humour at its finest. Some might find them corny but they're all pretty good with the rapid fire jokes and character quirks. On the surface a lot of those British shows may seem to be strictly formula but they made it work time and time again. Even though you knew what was coming a lot of the time and the set up was usually the same in the form of familiar situations and catchphrases, the timing was outstanding and there were enough twists and turns to keep it fresh.

l
Scrubs - Amazing? No, but solidly written early on. Bill Lawrence did Spin City with J. Fox as well.
Curb Your Enthusiasm - Seinfeld, done better.
Undeclared - Could do worse!
The Office - The ancestor to so many laugh-track free shows we enjoy today.
The Larry Sanders Show - Brilliant. No, beyond brilliant.
Better Off Ted - If you don't watch this, you're basically repeating the holocaust.
Arrested Development - This too.
It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia - Seinfeld taken to its conclusions.
Cougar Town - The best show which has the scariest title to you. Look for the thread here. Become one of us. One of us.
The League - Okay, maybe this is the Seinfeld heir.
Louie - Not a sitcom.
30 Rock - Take SNL, make it a sitcom and then make it well-written with good characters.
Bored To Death - Season two.
Increasingly Poor Decisions of Todd Margaret - You probably can't handle this.
Don't Trust the Bitch in Apartment 23 - Or this.
Parks and Recreation - And never this.

None of those are "Sitcoms" imo. I always thoguht Sitcoms had to have laugh tracks and dumb pauses for said laugh tracks......I HATE laugh tracks, they ruin shows for me (How I met your Mother)


But yes, all those shows are amazing.

Agreed, I wouldn't exactly consider those sitcoms, as opposed to the ones badreligionau referenced.
The laugh tracks don't bother me that much with How I Met Your Mother or The BIg Bang Theory though, those are good sitcoms.

Laugh tracks or live studio audiences aren't required for the show to be a sitcom. Borrowing the definition used on the Wikipedia page:

A situation comedy, often shortened to sitcom, is a genre of comedy that features characters sharing the same common environment, such as a home or workplace, accompanied with jokes as part of the dialogue. Such programs originated in radio, but today, sitcoms are found almost exclusively on television as one of its dominant narrative forms, and art forms.

A situation comedy television program may be recorded in front of a studio audience. The effect of a live studio audience can be imitated by the use of a laugh track.

I suppose you could make a distinction between a sitcom and a comedy series with some of those shows, but it's still kind of splitting hairs in my opinion.

I HATE laugh tracks, they ruin shows for me (How I met your Mother)

What about shows like Frasier and Seinfeld?

I get that laugh tracks and live studio audiences can be annoying and obnoxious, and they do tend to be a part of bad and mediocre sitcoms which gives them a bad reputation. I am a bit surprised that they are that big a deal for a lot of people though.

Scrubs - Amazing? No, but solidly written early on. Bill Lawrence did Spin City with J. Fox as well.
Undeclared - Could do worse!
The Office - The ancestor to so many laugh-track free shows we enjoy today.
Arrested Development - This too.
It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia - Seinfeld taken to its conclusions.
30 Rock - Take SNL, make it a sitcom and then make it well-written with good characters.
Parks and Recreation - And never this.

No love for Community?

I've seen and loved those particular shows (well, I liked Undeclared, but loved Freaks and Geeks).

Cougar Town - The best show which has the scariest title to you. Look for the thread here. Become one of us. One of us.

I have

Keep in mind that this list is made of show that have a laugh track.

I'm missing a plural in there... but yeah, like Jao and el badman said, my question was more specific about shows with laugh tracks. I'm fully aware there's great comedy out there. In fact, there's great shows out there in general.

---

Andrew, I completely forgot about How I Met Your Mother. I think it's one of those shows I think is slightly overrated. Great cast and it's funny at times, but it hasn't drawn me in as it has with a lot of other people I know.

For me Two and a Half Men has always been too puerile and misogynistic. I don't mind a little bit of that humour, but they do it in the least subtle way possible.

The Drew Carey Show...I'm biased here because Drew Carey is one of my favourite comedians, but I think it's terribly underrated. It was funny and entertaining in the conventional sense like a lot of other hits of that era, but it was also fairly innovative with its "What's wrong with this episode?" series and the live episodes which crossed over with Whose Line Is It Anyway?, along with some other specials that broke the fourth wall or got creative. Some really good musical numbers, great lines, memorable characters that were likeable, at times very dark and cynical humour...really good show. I hope they find a way to release more seasons on DVD.

Another all-time favourite of mine is Red Dwarf, which actually saw a three part special a couple of years ago and a new series is coming out next year. Fantastic news as it was and still is a great show. The low budget sets and effects of the early days actually add to the charm, as it was always about the jokes and the characters, which have always been strong. A lot of fans dislike the later seasons but I'm hard pressed to find any episodes that I outright dislike. The American pilot was supposedly pretty bad and the clips I've seen of it on the DVDs back that up, but the show that was actually made is awesome.

That 70s Show is one I got into late but ended up really liking. Its earlier seasons are definitely the strongest, though it remained (in my opinion) a very good show up until the eighth season where they had to replace Topher Grace and thus wrote Eric out. Like Scrubs, they didn't need to do that postscript season. In some ways it was kind of a run of the mill sitcom, but it had some creative ideas like "The Circle" (great for some rapid fire jokes as well as advancing the plot) and they made good use of split screen conversations, usually contrasting conversations on the same topic between the guys and the girls. Perhaps a little underappreciated, I certainly like it any rate.

I liked the Drew Carey Show and Red Dwarf as well. That 70s show had some really funny moments, but I guess Ashton Kutcher ended up putting me off that a little bit. His character was fine in the first few seasons, but the overly outrageous guy in any show gets a little tedious after a while.

Keeping Up Appearances is a classic as well

Whoops, I thought that was just a restriction on your list, not the criteria for the thread overall. Strike non-qualifying shows from my list as necessary, then.

I wouldn't call HIMYM overrated but I am a little biased in the matter. I think that if you've soured on Friends then you're probably not going to be a big HIMYM fan either as there are obviously similarities, though as I said I believe it does certain things better with its framing device and its characters. I must admit I got into it after it had been on the air for a few years but it grew on me fairly quickly.

You're absolutely right about TAAHM but like I said, I feel it's had some good innuendo and one liners. It's for the reasons that you mentioned that I think it has a very limited shelf life, though. Had it just run for a season or two it probably would've been OK, maybe even become a cult classic for people who like bawdier sitcoms. The concept has worn thin however and the characters are very unlikeable. I can't and won't defend the show as a whole, I'm not a fan after all, but I do still think it's had some good lines here and there. That's about as much credit as I'll give it.

What about shows like Frasier and Seinfeld?

Unfortunately, yes. I have nothing against the shows themselves and I recognize their greatness, I just can't bare watching them.

The title is pretty misleading since situation comedy is a broader genre than I generally think it is. When I think of the term sitcom, I think laugh track. I guess it's my own interpretation. If I was to name every comedy on tv that I like, then the list would probably be at least double the size.

They don't make shows with laugh tracks outside of CBS and Whitney because laugh tracks are stupid. CBS continues to use them because their viewers need to be told what's funny on those decrepit works.

There's nothing inherent to a sitcom that requires it to have laugh tracks, or dumb dads with hot wifes, or families. There were no sitcoms like Cheers, Seinfeld and Friends until they happened either.

Yes, Minister is a great British sitcom.
Working was not British, but was amazing.

However, I think we're going to see more and more of these work com and mockumentary style of comedies over the next few years, leading to the genre being overdone and stale in short order.

Workplace comedies have been around for over fifty years now.

30 Rock isn't really a "work com" and definitely not mockumentary style. Because otherwise you're going to have to throw in Scrubs and Drew Carey Show as both.

Everybody Loves Raymond. It does hold up, it is funny, but I wouldn't call it a favourite. That may be because it has one of the least sympathetic casts of any show that has intended to portray its characters sympathetically. Ironically, the character who I think we're supposed to sympathise with most - Debra - can be one of the shrillest and unlikeable characters on the whole show.

You're not. You were initially at the start, but the show quickly changed that to make her as bad as the rest. Most shows make this mistake early on.

Frasier is another one I'd put in the "never had an awful episode" category...at least, not that I can remember.

Oh, there are some real bad ones. Especially during the stretch run. I seem to think there's a good number involving Maris or Mel as well.

[Seinfeld] was great and it is still one of my favourites, but it's not perfect and gets a free pass on a lot of things other sitcoms don't.

Like what?

And it's the "yardstick" because it did away with the foolish notion that people were good, somebody learned a lesson and everybody hugged at the end. It also took a butcher knife to the notion that the main character and "star" of a named-after sitcom has to be the vehicle for the plot.

There's a notion that every modern good sitcom is the situation viewed through either the lens of Friends or the lens of Seinfeld. There's also The Office, but I'd claim Cheers did it first and The Office merely changed the type of lens.

The Drew Carey Show...I'm biased here because Drew Carey is one of my favourite comedians, but I think it's terribly underrated.

No. I like the show but it's just Drew Carey having fun with the sitcom money ABC gave him and decided he should invite some friends over in doing it.

Workplace comedies have been around for over fifty years now.

I know they've been around for a long time. I just get the feeling we're going to see more of them in the near future, in particular mockumentaries, to the point where we have a slew of follow-the-leader imitators that make the genre overdone.

And it's the "yardstick" because it did away with the foolish notion that people were good, somebody learned a lesson and everybody hugged at the end. It also took a butcher knife to the notion that the main character and "star" of a named-after sitcom has to be the vehicle for the plot.

It certainly avoids that cheesiness but outside of shows like Full House, you don't really see that in most 90s sitcoms. Again, I'm not saying Seinfeld wasn't great and it's fair to hold it up as an example of a really successful, funny show, but I don't think it's the only way to do comedy or a good sitcom.

No. I like the show but it's just Drew Carey having fun with the sitcom money ABC gave him and decided he should invite some friends over in doing it.

Like I said, I'm biased when it comes to the show but I do think it was really good and it doesn't get mentioned a whole lot, hence why I feel it's underrated.

I know they've been around for a long time. I just get the feeling we're going to see more of them in the near future, in particular mockumentaries, to the point where we have a slew of follow-the-leader imitators that make the genre overdone.

The Office has been out for over a decade. And we have its superior spin-off, Arrested Development, Modern Family and...

Reno 911! was really more of a parody of Cops but it probably counts.

I don't think it's the only way to do comedy or a good sitcom.

Who says it is?

I've seen it suggested before in discussions in other forums, though maybe it's not a widely held view and the folks expressing it were just a vocal minority.

Like I said, I'm biased when it comes to the show but I do think it was really good and it doesn't get mentioned a whole lot, hence why I feel it's underrated.

Bias granted, even so that still doesn't make it terribly underrated.

Underappreciated, maybe? Overlooked?

I'll ride with underappreciated. It's not overlooked given that it lasted 9 seasons, or 6/7 if you remove the remaining contract hell seasons ABC was obligated to do.

Even though it's really a send up of the laugh track sitcom formula, I should have added "That's My Bush" to the list. The episode where George got fired from every job was amazing.

Seems like almost all of benji's list has never screened on free to air in Australia. We just get the crap Kenny mentioned.

Anyways, for me Seinfeld is king. But I don't watch TV, so I live in past

Half of it hasn't been on "free to air" here either. This shit ain't charity.

But I don't watch TV, so I live in past

With Channel Nine resurrecting Big Brother, that's not a bad idea.

phpBB [video]

Meh, I think the show's largely ordinary with some good lines here and there, but to be honest that "parody" wasn't much funnier. It came off like a bad Family Guy cutaway.