Greatest Of The Three Point Era: BEST Player

[benji]

Just to get these easy ones out of the way so we can move onto my more inventive ones.

In this case we want to decide who are the ultimate overall players. Pick ten, pick five, pick one at each position, pick positions and five best, pick your poison.

YOU CAN'T PICK JORDAN

BOILERPLATE:
And here we go again, some notes again:
We're considering only 1977-78 forward. The best seven year stint of that player, in other words the "prime" of their career.

Should note, that you are not required to name the seven years for the player, it is merely a guideline to focus thoughts on the player at his best and to ignore things like legacy or entire careers.

And should also note that in instances regarding injuries, yes, go the extra year. For example, Grant Hill only plays SEVEN FULL SEASONS from 1995-2005 despite it being ten years. Also even if they play, like David Robinson in 1996-97, for a few games, you can skip over/include that season. If a player does something like play 17 games in one season and 55 games in another plus six full seasons, you can include both shortened seasons even if it's eight total seasons/years. It's not really fair to enforce seven calender years on the players.

Original Intro Thread (since it outlines the seven year concept) to help: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=78832

[Mavs4Life]

You and Jordan benji

EDITED

10. Lebron James
9. Dirk Nowitzki
8. Charles Barkley
7. Karl Malone
6. Hakeem Olajuwan
5. Larry Bird
4. Tim Duncan
3. Magic Johnson
2. Shaquille O Neal
1. Kobe Bryant

Honorable:Dwayne Wade,Ray Allen,Jason Kidd, John Stockton, Scottie Pippen, Robert Horry (for his clutch) Dominique Wilkins, Kareem -Abdul Jabbar,Carmelo Anthony, Amar'e Stoudemire, Kevin Garnett, T-Mac, VC, Chris Bosh, Steve Nash, Dwight Howard, Reggie Miller, AI and many more

[NovU]

As much as I respect Kobe's resume, it's mostly popularity contests he's won. And if # of championship is the true measurement for individual's greatness, I have no say. Overall, I think Kobe was never impressive enough to be the #1 here let alone as the offensive player which he is famous for.

[rise]

0. Michael Jordan
1. Kobe Bryant (as much as I hate it, it's true)
2. Magic Johnson
3. Hakeem Olajuwon
4. Karl Malone
5. LeBron James (he's going to rise above Kobe before his career is over)
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Kevin Garnett
8. Larry Bird
9. Tim Duncan
10. Charles Barkley
11. Dwyane Wade
12. Dirk Nowitzki
13. Jason Kidd
14. Steve Nash
15. Dominique Wilkins
16. Clyde Drexler
17. Vince Carter
18. Dwight Howard (he'll be in the top 10 in a few years barring injury)
19. John Stockton
20. Allen Iverson

[NovU]

Please provide more info on Kobe why he's been the best player in 3 point era in prime(7 years span). I actually really want to hear why it's become a general perception among most casual fans.

[Mavs4Life]

Has anybody other than Jordan really performed higher than him?

[Nick]

Michael Jordan #1!!!!!!!!!

[rise]

Please provide more info on Kobe why he's been the best player in 3 point era in prime(7 years span). I actually really want to hear why it's become a general perception among most casual fans.

Has anybody other than Jordan really performed higher than him?

Mavs4life is right, there is nobody else, outside of Jordan, who has had a better prime career than Kobe. Like Paul Pierce's Celtics, Kobe's teammates sucked during the best years of his career, and you can't hold him back because of that. (Which reminds me: Paul Pierce at #21)

I seriously tried to find a reason to not put him right behind Jordan, but I really couldn't. He may not be the best player in the NBA now, but his play from 2000-07 is really unmatched by anyone except for MJ. I honestly think that once LeBron wins a couple rings and refines his three-point shot a little more, he'll be ahead of Kobe, or right behind him in a close second. I think we're still seeing just the beginning of his prime.

But for now... Kobe is the second-best player of the three-point era. *pukes*

[[Q]]

well Magic is my #1... yeah yeah I'm from LA and I grew up on the showtime Lakers, but this man damn near averages a triple double AND leads the league in steals in 2 consecutive seasons at the beginning of his career and is merely an afterthought in a Kobe/Jordan debate? while Kobe was airballing 3s in Utah his rookie season, Magic was starting at center and winning a title. He won 5 titles in 9 years before Kareem got too old to play and before he retired

[Kenny]

I'd say Magic Johnson over Kobe as well. Maybe even Larry Bird and Tim Duncan as well (perhaps a bit of homerism involved there).

[Mandich]

1-Kareem
2-Magic
3-Larry
4-Kobe
5-Hakeem
6-Shaq
7-Tim Duncan
8-LeBron( not higher because he has the same amount of ring as me, the only difference is he wears a headband)
9-Karl Malone/John Stockon ( They made each other, wouldn't exist without each other)
10-Barkley

[Oznogrd]

i like how this mostly became a name your favorite players thread

[[Q]]

oh hey maddich is back. too bad his justin beiber signature isn't

[Mavs4Life]

i like how this mostly became a name your favorite players thread

True for some, but mine would've been 60 % Mavs

[Mandich]

oh hey maddich is back. too bad his justin beiber signature isn't

Well, a shame isn't it.

[hova-]

If you ask me, Tim Duncan has performed better than Kobe during the Spurs' championship runs. Just one example as I don't know how you can compare the late 80ies and early 90ies to Kobe's era.

[Mandich]

If you ask me, Tim Duncan has performed better than Kobe during the Spurs' championship runs. Just one example as I don't know how you can compare the late 80ies and early 90ies to Kobe's era.

One rule I learned about basketball fans. They always love athletic players more. But TIm Duncan is the best power forward to ever play the game in my opinion.

[NovU]

Not only TD but several others go ahead of Kobe in my book.

[Valor]

I was tempted to put Jordan from #1 to #10...but oh well, here's my top 10

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Shaquille O Neal
3. Magic Johnson
4. Larry Bird (Pains me to put a Celtic this high...)
5. Tim Duncan
6. Allen Iverson
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Moses Malone
9. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
10. Charles Barkley

[Dc311]

Lebron should not even be considered in a top ten.But oh well.
Here's mine:

10.Reggie Miller
9.David Robinson
8.Karl Malone
7.Moses Malone
6.Hakeem Olajuwon
5.Kobe Bryant
4.Shaquille O'neal
3.Tim Duncan
2.Larry Bird
1.Magic Johnson

[Murat]

10. Paul Pierce: Give life to Celtics again, successor of Bird.

9. Dwyane Wade: Well, just one of the guards to lift up NBA.

8. Kevin Durant: So young, so young but deserves a spot as a Thunder.

7. Karl Malone: People remembered that there was a pick'n roll and a PF position.

6. LeBron James: He could be 2 or 3 if he wouldn't left Cleveland...but he is still the best of today.

5. Tim Duncan: Best PF of all-time. 4 rings.

4. Shaquille O'Neal: Brought new rules to NBA. Made backboards more strengthed.

3. Magic Johnson: Probably the best of L.A. Showtime's leader

2. Larry Bird: Showed how to score 3-pointers. Give life to Celtics.

1. Kobe Bryant: Oh well, this guy used to be call as a successor of MJ.

[instant000]

One thing that makes this so difficult is that we're not going position-by-position, which would make this a lot easier for me. Now, I'm just forced to think about where I'd draft these people, if I had a choice to pick them up for my squad.

1977-2004:
(BIGS)
1. Shaq (it is sad that newbs to basketball discredit Shaq for Kobe, when Shaq carried the Lakers to a threepeat. Consult his three consecutive Finals MVPs for more proof.)
2. Olajuwon (Dominant offensive and defense player.)
3. Duncan (Best PF of all-time)
4. Barkley (I'd take him as second-best PF of all-time)
5. Karl Malone (I'd take him as third-best PF of all-time)
6. Moses Malone (had the misfortune of playing in the same league as Magic and Larry, and STILL got a ring)
7. McHale (Barkley says this is the best PF he played against. He had great post game.)
8. Robinson (the Admiral)

(SMALLS)
1. Bird (Yes, I'd take him over Magic. Trust me, it's close, but Bird was better. Maybe because I like rebounds, I dunno.)
2. Magic (Played every position, but Bird was more skilled, overall. Subbed for Kareem as a rookie, and won the Finals)
3. Pippen (Complete Player, Defensively Especially, Started the term "point-forward")
4. Wilkins (unstoppable force, discredited a bit due to all the scoring and dunk titles he didn't get because Jordan was around)
5. Erving (the Doc was awesome, but seemed to be a bit more flash than substance, his "hand that rocks the cradle" on Cooper is still awesome to this day)
6. Iverson (The Little Man that could)
7. Isaiah Thomas (Yes, he was better than Stockton. You can take it to the bank. Watch them head-to-head for proof.)
8. Stockton (someone was passing to Malone to make him look that good. Stockton also was good on defense.)
9. Hill (should have been Pippen 2.0, still made the list, but he could have been even better if not for his oft-injuries)

2005-2011:
(BIGS)
1. Howard (3-consecutive DPOY. Already established as an all-time great for rebounding and defense. He's still in his prime years.)
2. Garnett (has a complete game, especially good on defense)
3. Nowitzki (one-dimensional)
4. Where are the BIGs?????????

I'm actually at a loss for naming any more good BIGs for 2005-2011. Who else is there? Brook Lopez?

(SMALLS)
1. James (a couple League MVPs, his numbers are very good)
2. Bryant (consistently good for a few seasons, some awards apparently from reputation and not actual on-the-court play)
3. Wade (in another year or two, will be over Kobe on this list)
4. Durant (scoring machine)
5. Rose (complete player)



Players I am discrediting:
1 - Kareem -- If we could have included the 70's, he'd be number 1 in this list. It's kinda sick that he was still able to get an MVP for Finals/League in the 80's, when he was definitely past his prime)
2 - Grant Hill . This guy was supposed to be version 2.0 of Scottie Pippen, but it seemed that his injuries hurt his career.

Specifically, people are ignoring some key rule changes (I'll rank them in order of effect).
1 - Defensive 3 Seconds
2 - Hand-checking




We all remember the hand-checking rules went in first, but they really weren't that big a deal. Why? Because you could still stick a big in the middle, so a player effective in mid-range one-on-one might be okay, but it won't necessarily help them get to the bucket, where the highest percentage shots area.
Once you could no longer stick a big in the middle, then teams could more readily get to the bucket. Please check the players you are calling so great, versus these rules:

I'm just highlighting this to say that if you don't take these rules MORE SIGNIFICANT than the three point line into account, you might have skewed results.
http://thereal2kinsider.blogspot.com/20 ... anges.html
http://www.chron.com/sports/rockets/art ... php#page-1

Basically, the rules changes have had the eventual effect of turning this into a small guy's game.

[Nick]

There's some numbers that can be used to help determine it...

If you're going by career PER rating, the rankings look like this...

Retired players:
(1a. Michael Jordan)
1b. Shaquille O'Neal
2. David Robinson
3. Charles Barkley
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Magic Johnson
6. Karl Malone
7. Hakeem Olajuwan
8. Larry Bird
9. Moses Malone
10. Julius Erving

Active players:
1. LeBron James
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Chris Paul
4. Tim Duncan
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Kevin Garnett
8. Yao Ming
9. Amare Stoudemire
10. Tracy McGrady

Retired & active players:
(1a. Michael Jordan)
1b. LeBron
2. Shaq
3. David Robinson
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Chris Paul
6. Tim Duncan
7. Charles Barkley
8. Kareem
9. Magic
10. Karl Malone

If you're going by WinShares, the rankings look like this (going with winshare per 48)...

Retired players:
(1a. Michael Jordan)
1b. David Robinson
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Charles Barkley
5. John Stockton
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Karl Malone
8. Larry Bird
9. Adrian Dantley
10. Sidney Moncrief

Active players:
1. Chris Paul
2. LeBron James
3. Tim Duncan
4. Manu Ginobili
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Yao Ming
7. Dwyane Wade
8. Kevin Garnett
9. Dwight Howard
10. Kobe Bryant

Active & retired players:
(1a. Michael Jordan)
1b. David Robinson
2. Chris Paul
3. Kareem
4. LeBron
5. Magic
6. Charles Barkley
7. Tim Duncan
8. Manu
9. Dirk
10. John Stockton

Obviously stats don't tell the whole story, but it's still interesting to look at nonetheless. Especially the winshares rankings.

Perhaps Kareem could come down a few slots when you consider that his stats are bumped due to 4 epic seasons before the '74 season. But it's also interesting to see Chris Paul so high up on winshare rankings. It's not much of a surprise when you consider how intelligent and big-hearted he is. It makes you think, if he can find himself on a team that wins multiple championships, he could one day end up being considered top 5 or 10 amongst the all-time greats.

[Andrew]

One thing that makes this so difficult is that we're not going position-by-position, which would make this a lot easier for me. Now, I'm just forced to think about where I'd draft these people, if I had a choice to pick them up for my squad.

We've gone position-by-position in earlier threads, if you wanted to revive those discussions.

[instant000]

Nick:

After looking at your list, my apologies, as I appear to have totally slept on Chris Paul (Don't know how I forgot about him.)

Still, looking at your numbers, and my list that was purely based on how I saw people playing (Don't get many Hornets games, LOL) -- it is remarkably similar. I mean, you know a good player when you see them. And you know the players who keep their teams in games.

Also, another player I'm curious about now as to rankings, is Adrian Dantley (he seemed such an efficient scorer, but I don't remember seeing him on the defensive end of the court ...). is there a site you reference for your PER stats? I was using like nba.com or wikipedia.org.

I'm glad that Kobe's barely to be seen in these rankings. (Numbers don't lie, but fanboys do!)

(As I previously said, the way the rules are called now suit the more athletic players to a T.)

I disagree with having Kareem come down a few rankings because he had *four great seasons*. I didn't include Kareem in my list, because the time frame for this thread excluded Kareem's prime years, and this thread wanted a players "7 best consecutive seasons" as the criteria. If I could just base on Kareem's prime 7 consecutive years without regards to when they occurred, then Kareem would have to be very high on the ranking.