Spirit of '99: 2011 Lockout Discussion

[shadowgrin]

I think that news story where Kobe stormed into the room with KG and Pierce was a hoax.

They didn't storm the room, you make it sound like they were looking for a fight. They knocked, politely perhaps...

There was a knock on the door where Stern was selling his owners on the idea. The players wanted to talk.

When they convened, instead of the union's head, Hunter, or its negotiating committee...representing the players were Fisher, Kessler and three superstars who had been to very few of the meetings at all: Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce and Kobe Bryant.

WTH man, who said Kobe was influenced by KG?

Well, they came in there as a group (Fisher, Hunter, Pierce, Kobe, and KG) and they reached that decision as a group...

The players had two pieces of news that shocked the league: 50/50 was not good enough. And there was nothing further to discuss.

According to the article Kessler, Fisher, and Kobe were ready to give in which leaves KG as the only one who's opposed to the deal. Pierce is 50/50 (on agreeing, not the BRI value) since he's also open to a deal like Kobe, but since he's teammates with KG it's probable that he sided with Garnett. That leaves 3-2 in favor of them making a deal with the owners but it didn't happen.
The group arrived at that decision not to make the deal, it wasn't entirely Garnett's fault. Whether Garnett influenced them or not it's clear that the group agreed upon that decision despite that only 2 of them (KG and Pierce) were opposed as compared to the majority of the contingent (Kessler, Kobe, and Fisher) that wanted a deal done.

I honestly don't know what KG is fighting for, he is paid already

He's fighting for the gains done by the players before him that had negotiated the previous CBAs and KG is also watching out for the younger players by making sure that they also get paid like him and that will only happen if they get the same percentage of income the same way KG got his. It boggles my mind how anyone could consider that greedy on KG's part.

[kAmilli LakeShow]

You make valid points, but i still don't get what KG is fighting for. The new deal will not hurt new players by much anyway, they'll make less money, but so what? Economy is in the shitter, NBA teams already fired a lot of employees , but players still want getting ridiculous money? Professionals with college education can't find a damn job while people who, will all due respect, are only good to play basketball and entertain get paid tens of millions of dollars and much more in endorsement deals. This situation is overwhelmed with greed from both sides, but i still lean towards' owners side, as it will provide better competition, hence better entertainment, hence even more money will be made for both sides

[benji]

lol at this notion that the union is looking out for younger players.

[kAmilli LakeShow]

lol at this notion that the union is looking out for younger players.

Yeah, it is very laughable

[shadowgrin]

You make valid points, but i still don't get what KG is fighting for. The new deal will not hurt new players by much anyway, they'll make less money, but so what? Economy is in the shitter, NBA teams already fired a lot of employees , but players still want getting ridiculous money? Professionals with college education can't find a damn job while people who, will all due respect, are only good to play basketball and entertain get paid tens of millions of dollars and much more in endorsement deals. This situation is overwhelmed with greed from both sides, but i still lean towards' owners side, as it will provide better competition, hence better entertainment, hence even more money will be made for both sides

True but it seems the majority of the union (or their leadership) feels the same way as KG, if they didn't the lockout would have ended by now. So what I'm saying is that don't make KG the escape goat and pin the entirety of not getting a deal done on him and making him out as an asshat even if he is one on the court. Not agreeing to a deal is the union's decision, not KG's alone.

lol at this notion that the union is looking out for younger players.

Yeah, it is very laughable

Shame on both of you.

[kAmilli LakeShow]

haha, alright Shadow, got ya. I won't blame KG for this XD

[shadowgrin]

Just be careful in agreeing with that benji. Him and his union-abolishing fascist ideas.

[kAmilli LakeShow]

Just be careful in agreeing with that benji. Him and his union-abolishing fascist ideas.

hahaha, i'm a dirty liberal-commie-socialist XD

[Andrew]

Was actually going to post a couple more threads I made like that now that we've lost November, I was waiting a bit back in case we actually had free agents and stuff. If anybody would be interested in them, I can post up a couple and see if anyone wants more of them.

I should probably try and post my lists for those old ones though, even if few people bother to argue with me. Just to be complete.

By all means.

[Andrew]

NBA fines Heat owner $500,000

The NBA fined Miami Heat owner Micky Arison $500,000 on Monday for recent comments he made on Twitter that violated the league’s censure on speaking publicly about the lockout, league sources told Yahoo! Sports.

The fine is one of the largest for an individual in NBA history.

NBA commissioner David Stern came down hard for what was a clear undermining of the league’s selling point that the owners are united on demanding sweeping and unprecedented financial givebacks from the Players Association. While the union has long believed there are severe splits between big- and small-market owners, this was the first public sentiment from such a high-ranking NBA official confirming it.

Arison responded to a poster on Twitter who had directed a comment to him questioning, “How does it feel to be a part of ruining the best game in the world? NBA owners/players don’t give a damn about fans … Fans provide all the money you’re fighting over … you greedy pigs.”

In response, Arison posted: “You are barking at the wrong owner.”

Another fan on Twitter asked Arison what he thought about eccentric Los Angeles Clippers owner Donald Sterling, and Arison responded with “lol.”

There goes Mark Cuban's record. "Eccentric" might also be the nicest adjective anyone's ever used to describe Donald Sterling.

[NovU]

Despite having to think Cuban was a classless owner in the beginning, he grew on me past few seasons with his passion and love for the sport and willingness to do all for his team. I think Arison shares a few similar traits of Cuban. Anyways, so much for united owners contrast to Stern's claims.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miam ... 1024.story

Arison is considered among the owners pushing hardest for a resumption of play, reluctant to lose additional games with his stacked roster of LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh that advanced to last season's NBA Finals.

Understandable. But the part of this lock out was to prevent another Heat trio to happen. 1 vs rest of owners case.

Later, from another Twitter account came this post to Arison's account, "Know it's not ur fault at this point, it's become child's play. Grown men making stupid decisions over money."

Replied Arison, "Exactly."

That had the initial poster chiming in with, "Then can you bark at the other owners? This is RIDICULOUS!!!"

Replied Arison, "Now u r making some sense."

Arison then retweeted a post from another account that read, "Heat ratings proved that fans want to see super teams in big markets instead of a ton of small-market teams each with one st(ar)."

Another account offered, "NBA labor is a joke! You owners don't care about us FANS at all!," to which Arison responded on his account, "Wrong we care a lot."

Later, he retweeted the question, "are you allowed to comment about ur feelings on the small market/big market issues some of the owners bring up?" He replied, "No."

Part of me says he shouldn't have spoken out loud but glad he did.

From there, Arison retweeted a post that read, "having 'all 32 teams compete' is complete BS. Such an unrealistic and stupid idea." In response he simply offered a smiley face (since there are only 30 NBA teams).

Also this.

[Andrew]

The fine is fair enough and obviously Stern would prefer to maintain a united front on that side of the negotiating table. Still, it's obviously frustrating for some owners that Stern is their mouthpiece, appearing to speak for all of them.

[Andrew]

Seems there's just as many cracks on the union's side of things: Fisher denies union rift in letter to NBA players

And Woj calls out Billy Hunter: Hunter’s actions in NBA labor talks weaken union

[Lamrock]

Hey I didn't feel like searching for the NBA question thread and this is pretty much on topic so, does anybody know whether the Blazers would be able to use their Amnesty to waive Roy, then wait some time and sign him to a reasonable deal?

[benji]

Depends on what the CBA allows.

The last one didn't allow teams to resign or trade for a player until the old contract ended.

It's on the second page, what, do you think this forum is actually active?

[Andrew]

My guess is that they'd have similar conditions this time around.

Elsewhere: Chauncey Billups Doesn’t Believe that Players Will be Willing to Give Up a Year’s Salary

[Jhiane]

fans are beginning to show their thoughts
http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/21 ... t_Movement

[Andrew]

Simple but effective, no doubt it's going to continue to be a popular avatar.

Ratings for Game 1 of the 2011 NBA Finals were up three percent from the previous year and up 15 percent over Game 1 of the 2006 NBA Finals, which also featured the Heat and Mavericks.

For the 10-11 regular season, games on ABC were up 38% from the previous season. TNT saw a gain of 42% and ESPN had a gain of 28% from 09-10.

It's been said before, but that's what sucks about the lockout for us fans and ultimately the league itself. A lot of people still do care about the NBA and really took an interest last season but that's very quickly going down the drain.

[benji]

lol at any tiny insignificant segment of fans thinking they matter.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/dec ... ng-message

So far the NBA players have kept the dispute within the realm of labor law by continuing to negotiate as a union. If the players dissolve the union -- either by decertifying or through a related process called a disclaimer of interest -- they surrender their collective bargaining rights, lift the shield of protection provided by the non-statutory labor exemption, and shift the venue from labor law to antitrust law.

After decertifying, the players could then bring an antitrust suit against the league, challenge any rules that constitute a restraint of trade, and ask the court to end the lockout. They could also seek treble (triple the amount) damages -- up to $6 billion per year. The odds of winning are not 100 percent certain (they never are), but the risk to the owners would be enormous. Such a case could take years to resolve.

Once the union decertifies, the collective bargaining process would be over -- there literally would be no union with which the owners could negotiate. Billy Hunter, Derek Fisher and the other players on the executive committee would no longer be in charge -- as a practical matter, control would pass to attorneys. The players also could not reassemble the union for one year without the league's consent. However, such consent obviously would be granted if the two sides eventually cut a deal.

Once the union decertifies, the owners could pursue one of three strategies:

• They can end the lockout, open the doors to the players and start doing business without a salary cap or any of the other mechanisms that existed in the CBA. They would be abandoning the very protections for which they are locking out the players, and which they have enjoyed for decades.

• They can end the lockout, open the doors to the players and unilaterally impose a new set of work rules without collective bargaining. This strategy would surely result in an antitrust challenge by the players. It would also implement an economic system the owners don't want, as the new rules would be designed to withstand such a challenge.

• They can continue the lockout, hoping to wear down the players. This strategy would also be met with an antitrust suit, and the owners would be hoping that the players wear down before the hammer falls. This is the most likely of the three scenarios.

The league's federal lawsuit would also become irrelevant if the union decertifies, because the league sued the union and its executive committee. Those bodies would no longer exist.

In order to decertify the union, at last 30 percent of the players must sign a petition stating that they no longer wish to be represented by the players' association. This petition is filed with the National Labor Relations Board, the same organization that is overseeing both sides' unfair labor practice charges. The NLRB then verifies the petition and schedules an election. If a majority of players then vote for decertification, the union is dissolved.

This process would take until at least after the new year before an election is scheduled. Union attorney Lawrence Katz also believes the NLRB would block any decertification petition until it rules on the earlier charges, which would cause further delays. "In my opinion, they could not process the petition for a vote because of the pending petition," he said.

So why would the players explore decertification now? Such a move would be like throwing a grenade into the negotiating room. "We aren't talking about decertification as a negotiating tactic," said David Holmes, a corporate attorney based in Houston. "We're talking about war."

I'd love to see the players decertify, the owners rush in and agree together to pay everyone their current contracts for the next two years (plus the missed games plus some kind of bonus for agreeing), and anyone who becomes a FA will get paid whatever they can get until the new TV deal when a new CBA is negotiated. When the Knicks, Heat, Bulls, Lakers, etc. stock up on stars and the ratings shoot through the roof with the greatest attention on the league in decades nobody will even give a shit.

[Lamrock]

How do you boycott a league that's locked out?

[Nick]

I hate the NBA so much right now.

That is all. Carry on.

[benji]

How do you boycott a league that's locked out?

They're not renewing League Pass until the lockout is over.

That'll show em!

[Andrew]

When it comes to the avatars and such, I tend to think they're for blowing off steam and a bit of snarky fun more than anything. Anyone who truly believes it'll have an impact on the negotiations is...misguided, to say the least. As for not renewing their league pass, it's a drop in the bucket and it's not exactly sticking it to the league in any big way but it's a sound idea for anyone unhappy with the situation. Vote with your remote, take your business elsewhere, if you don't like it don't buy it and all that.

[shadowgrin]

Stackhouse on the union heads.

"Not to say anything against Derek Fisher, it's not that I don't think he's a great guy," Stackhouse said, "But I don't want him negotiating my contract. I want an agent who knows the lingo negotiating my contract. Derek Fisher, he doesn't negotiate his own contract. He has an agent. So why would I want him negotiating something even bigger than his contract? This [Collective Bargaining Agreement] is something more important to everybody."

"David Stern, he's made this league what it is," Stackhouse said. "He's one of the greatest commissioners in sports. He's got that title, he's got the NBA at the place where it is because he's a shrewd businessman and knows how to work his way, play the media, play things up to get what he wants. We don't do that. Players are emotional. Players get emotional. So no, I don't necessarily, particularly want Derek Fisher or any of the executive committee negotiating a contract for me."

"Over the course of my career, the last 16 years, it seems like the executive committee is always making concessions," Stackhouse said. "More concessions, more concessions in each Collective Bargaining Agreement and this is no different. I don't think there's ever been a case where it seems like we have any leverage... We need to have more people who are capable of going toe to toe with David Stern and I just don't think players who spend most of their time playing basketball and Billy Hunter are geared to do that."

[bowdown]

Just curious. NBA's facebook page still has many NBA player photos with their names in them and affiliation with their teams. Arent they supposed to get rid of all that during the lockout? They removed all their videos from youtube containing current players and their official website has no pics of them either. Why is their official facebook page safe from legal action?