Greatest Of The Three Point Era: Small Forward

[benji]

Let's refresh:
We're considering only 1977-78 forward. The best seven year stint of that player, in other words the "prime" of their career.

Should note, that you are not required to name the seven years for the player, it is merely a guideline to focus thoughts on the player at his best and to ignore things like Qballer's post.

And should also note that in instances regarding injuries, yes, go the extra year. For example, Grant Hill only plays SEVEN FULL SEASONS from 1995-2005 despite it being ten years. Also even if they play, like David Robinson in 1996-97, for a few games, you can skip over/include that season. If a player does something like play 17 games in one season and 55 games in another plus six full seasons, you can include both shortened seasons even if it's eight total seasons/years. It's not really fair to enforce seven calender years on the players.

Some ideas of how to do it:
List 1-10 with comments why for each player.
Or:
List 1-5 with comments for each player, and five honorable mentions with a brief comment on those as whole.
And/Or:
Rank the five best offensive players and five best defensive players. Or just with your top ten/five list the top offensive player and top defensive player.

Really no set format, there are plenty of ways of doing it.

The following players should be considered SF's:
Larry Bird
Dominique Wilkins
Clifford Robinson
Glen Rice
Tracy McGrady
Shawn Marion
Wally Szczerbiak
Keith Van Horn

The following players should not:
Lamar Odom
Kevin Garnett
Larry Nance
Vince Carter
Joe Johnson
Dennis Rodman
Larry Johnson
Tom Chambers
Bobby Jones
Anthony Mason

[Murat]

%100 agreeing with you on the guys that should not be SF.

[[Q]]

and to ignore things like Qballer's post.

i read everything this time!



my top 10, in no particular order:
Bird
Lebron
G Hill
English
Dr. J
Pippen
Nique
B King
Dantley (SG or SF benji?)
Worthy

I would say Rick Barry is up there too, but he comes in just short of ben's cutoff year

i think the common theme among the players mentioned in this conversation will be versatility. most will have over 3 or 4 rebs & asts per game along with either 1 spg or 1 bpg or both.

[The X]

X's Top 10

1. Larry Bird ('82-'88): Ironically enough his peak in my eyes matched Magic’s, which would explain a lot of things. He could shoot, pass, rebound, make teammates better, was clutch, had lots of magical moments and performances and had good bball IQ. Larry Legend has not yet be knocked off by Lebron in my eyes. I know the numbers point towards Lebron being number one, but I will be sentimental and keep Larry at number one. If Lebron can get back to what he did from ’08 to ’10 with Cavs and do that with the Heat, then obviously I’ll have no issues putting him at top.

2. Lebron James ('05-'11): Let’s his exclude his rookie year when Ricky Davis was the man and let’s run from his second year with Cavs to this year with Heat. His last three years with Cavs were at historic levels. He’s obviously number one on benji’s list but I’ll keep him at spot 1b.

3. Scottie Pippen ('91-'97): It should be no surprise that his peak coincided with the Bulls’ 1st title to their 5th in 2007. Pippen is probably my favourite from this list and I can’t drop him any lower than this spot, regardless of what the stats might otherwise indicate.

4. Dominique Wilkens ('85-'93): I’m excluding the year he played in half the games. Looking at his numbers I find it very hard to believe he wasn’t first ballot Hall of Famer :0

5. Adrian Dantley ('80-'86): I’m choosing his 7 years in Utah, when he dominated the league with his unorthodox offensive repertoire. Most underrated player in this top 10.

6. Alex English ('81-'87): Like Dantley, I’ve stucked to his first 7 definitive years with the Denver Nuggets. English knew how to put points on the board.

7. Julius Erving ('78-'84): His peak naturally started in his ABA days, but ahh well. Everybody loves the Doctor, but I can’t put him in any higher than this.

8. Grant Hill ('95-'05): Unfortunately for Hill, I will punish him due to injuries. Pre-injury he was one of the best two small forwards in the league, post-injury obviously not.

9. Paul Pierce ('01-'07): Sadly for Pierce his peak was when the Celtics mostly stunk up the joint.

10. Bernard King ('78-'87): Carmelo Anthony of the 80’s?


Honorable mentions: My last out was Shawn Marion, a very tough exclusion given his gaudy stats. Then there is a personal favourite in Glen Rice (Heat & especially Hornets version).

Note James Worthy slightly misses out because I forgot him until I saw Q's list.

EDIT: I also forgot Melo, let's put him in honorable mention too.

[[Q]]

yeah Glen Rice is one of my favorites too, especially in NBA Live 98 where he was just money from downtown

[benji]

%100 agreeing with you on the guys that should not be SF.

THANKS!

Carmelo Anthony of the 80’s?

There's another good comparison, from DePaul, starred for Dallas. Won with another team.

i read everything this time!

Sure, you did...should keep it as an advisory anyway! (I missed editing that out of the specific people stuff since it was at the end. Now I want to keep it thought.)

Dantley (SG or SF benji?)

SF

[NovU]

A lot of guys from 80's and 90's. Having watched the game from mid 90's, can't really tell much about this list.

Should Jalen Rose and Drexler be considered as SF?

[The X]

Carmelo Anthony of the 80’s?

There's another good comparison, from DePaul, starred for Dallas. Won with another team.

I remember seeing Mark Aguirre in a Magic Charity game after both of their careers were over and both had big beer guts. Aguirre didn't find a shot he didn't like. He could put up some numbers though.

[[Q]]

jalen is a really good question because of his versatility i'm inclined to say he's a SF but drexler at SG

[rise]

1. LeBron James [2005-2011] (so far. I think we're only seeing the beginning of his prime.)

2. Larry Bird [1983-1990] (only played six games in 1988-89 season)

3. Dominique Wilkins [1986-1993] (only played 42 games in 91-92, missed about 20 games or so in the other years listed.

4. Tracy McGrady [2001-2008] (had a couple half seasons in there)

5. Grant Hill [1995-2000] (I really can't put any other seasons, they are the first six seasons in which he played in the NBA, and after those, he played 4, 14, 29, 67, and 21 games in the subsequent five seasons)

6. Paul Pierce [2001-2007] (Picking years was too easy for him.)

7. Shawn Marion [2001-2007] (He had a monster season for a small forward in 2006! 22 ppg, 12 rpg, 1.8 apg, 1.7 bpg, 2.0 spg. )

8. Scottie Pippen [1992-1998] (I met him and Jordan in an elevator when I first moved to Charlotte, but I was too young to remember it. )

9. Adrian Dantley [1980-1987] (Only played 22 games in one season, hence the eight-year span)

10. Bernard King [1984-1991] (He had a few up and down seasons which made it damn near impossible to get a good seven year span)


People who will be here in the future: Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, possibly Danny Granger if this year is just one big slump for him and he goes back to his 2008 form.
Honorable mention: Glen Rice [1992-1998], Clyde Drexler [1986-1992] - never mind. QBaller said he's a SG

[The X]

4. Tracy McGrady [2001-2008] (had a couple half seasons in there)

I think benji & everybody else classes T-Mac as a SG

[Andrew]

I think benji & everybody else classes T-Mac as a SG

Guess again.

The following players should be considered SF's:
Larry Bird
Dominique Wilkins
Clifford Robinson
Glen Rice
Tracy McGrady
Shawn Marion
Wally Szczerbiak
Keith Van Horn

In any event, I'll have my list out shortly.

[rise]

4. Tracy McGrady [2001-2008] (had a couple half seasons in there)

I think benji & everybody else classes T-Mac as a SG

Yeah, I thought T-Mac was a shooting guard as well, because he is listed as one in some video games, but in real life usually listed as a guard-forward, but since Benji had him as a SF, I said, why not?

[The X]

I didn't even look at benji's list, T-Mac would've made my top 10

[benji]

Should Jalen Rose and Drexler be considered as SF?

The only reason Jalen Rose should be on anyone's list is if they're making an "Honorable Mention for Providing a Stable Target for Nick Van Exel to Throw Towels At" or are listing worst contracts or something.

Drexler was a guard during his prime, Kersey was the forward.

As for McGrady, him and Mike Miller, and him and Shane Battier were basically interchangable, but for the other four seasons of his prime he's starting at forward almost every game.

[The X]

Looking back, since T-Mac is a 2 instead of a 3, let's slot him into spot #8 & knock each of the other guys down a spot.

[NovU]

Should Jalen Rose and Drexler be considered as SF?

The only reason Jalen Rose should be on anyone's list is if they're making an "Honorable Mention for Providing a Stable Target for Nick Van Exel to Throw Towels At" or are listing worst contracts or something.

Drexler was a guard during his prime, Kersey was the forward.

As for McGrady, him and Mike Miller, and him and Shane Battier were basically interchangable, but for the other four seasons of his prime he's starting at forward almost every game.

How about Delef Schremf... I could never spell his name right likse Wally Szerbiak or something... Anyways, Delef Ithought were closer to SF. what do you think?

[adv1s5]

if you put mcgrady on your top 10 list, you'd have to put glen rice there too.

[benji]

How about Delef Schremf... I could never spell his name right likse Wally Szerbiak or something... Anyways, Delef Ithought were closer to SF. what do you think?

He was always obviously a SF. Unless you think Dale Davis and Shawn Kemp were the perimeter forwards.

if you put mcgrady on your top 10 list, you'd have to put glen rice there too.

Why do you say that?

If Michael Redd was a SF would you make the same demand? Dale Ellis?

[Lamrock]

Quick list:

1. LeBron James | A team with no stars built around one player's game and a coach that doesn't coach. Sound like one that would have back-to-back 60 win seasons? Check his $tat$. In his first MVP season, he averaged more win shares per 48 than MJ did in any season.
2. Larry Bird | Bird had a phenomenal career, one more illustrious than LeBrons. Can not, in good conscience, overlook LeBron being historically good.
3. Adrian Dantley | Damn right he was underrated. Remarkably efficient high-usage player.
4. Scottie Pippen | The Bulls' three-peats would not have been without him, but while he's a deserved hall-of-famer, he wasn't a franchise player.
5. Tracy McGrady | Would be in the top 3 if not for injuries, as he had some Jordan-esque years in the early 2000's.
6. Julius Erving | Though is prime was pre-three point line, he did win a rather deserved MVP award in this time frame.
7. Paul Pierce | He nearly took a Celtics team with Antoine Walker as a focal point to the NBA Finals, but he has had his best seasons in the big 3 era, as a good defender and very efficient offensive player.
8. Peja Stojakovic | The most steady player on those phenomenal Kings teams. Would be higher if not for his falling off of a cliff following his 2004 career year
9. Shawn Marion | One could argue he was better than Nash in those MVP seasons. I wouldn't, but in addition to being one of the league's most unique players, he was also one of its best.
10. Dominique Wilkins | HE HAD THE BALL

'Nique and Melo are interchangeable. No idea why English made so many lists. Bad defender and overrated offensively.

[adv1s5]

primes:
t-mac
2000-01 to 2006-07

glen rice
1991-92 to 1997-98

i'd argue both players are very similar in their seven-year primes and accomplished virtually the same for their teams. neither went past the second round but still led their teams to winning seasons.
and yes to redd and yes to dale ellis. t-mac's value was in his scoring and i will argue better shooters do so with better efficiency. what value does t-mac have over these other players?

side note:i still don't find rebound averages 6 and under to be an incredibly meaningful statistic for most small forwards and guards, as a lot of it is a reflection of minutes played and the quality of big men on the floor. if two sf's had identical stats aside from one player having 5 rebounds a game and another having 3 per game, i wouldn't say he's a better rebounder.

[benji]

i'd argue both players are very similar in their seven-year primes

In what way?

as a lot of it is a reflection of minutes played and the quality of big men on the floor.

If only there was some way to control for these!

if two sf's had identical stats aside from one player having 5 rebounds a game and another having 3 per game, i wouldn't say he's a better rebounder.

What if they didn't have identical stats, and what if this test was repeated over seven years with consistent results despite changing situations?

[adv1s5]

In what way?

i have underestimated t-macs contribution during his prime. i have an unbusted nut for shooters and think they deserve some love, but i guess its true that they just shoot well. i just don't think of t-mac when i think of great small forward. he shot okay, was the undisputed leader of his team, controlled the offense and as a result got some assists and rebounds.

this is where the questions start. can we say t-mac is a better player than paul pierce, who has more consistent numbers through his career and has a ring but not as good of a prime as t-mac?

i'm just having trouble arguing in these "greatest of the three point era" threads. I JUST WANT TO FIGHT

as for rebound percentage stats, i still don't care about stats under 6 for guards and sf's.
if two players didn't have identical stats and one player averaged two more rebounds than the other, sure, he's a better rebounder. i just don't find that a useful statistic. i would use the other stats to compare them. once a guard/sf starts averaging 6 and over, i start noticing. the rebounds guards collect are often from long misses and balls which other players could have reached and which happened to bounce their way. i don't have a stat to prove this, will admit i am wrong if i get evidence otherwise, but again i don't think its the job of the guard to rebound anyway.

Tracy McGrady | Would be in the top 3 if not for injuries, as he had some Jordan-esque years in the early 2000's.

??? how so?

anyway, i agree with x's list more or less. it's a shame dr. j's best years were in the nba and right before the cutoff date, or else he'd fit in somewhere lower in the list.

[The X]

Interested to see how Andrew and benji's lists stack up

[Stress Fracture]

Is Kevin Durant not a Small Forward?