The Debate Thread: Immigration (Legal and Illegal)

[benji]

Jae essentially requested this thread among others, though we had done it before.

I was, as can be found in the original thread, supportive of the idea that a nation can police admittance to permanent residence within its borders. And no matter what I will not deny that there is an interest for nation-states to control access to within their borders, as that's basically the entire point. However, I have slowly transitioned to an open-borders type mostly out of cynicism. (Also an interest does not make law.) If the charter document of a community, the stand-in for the implied social contract (a failed theory, but one that most accept for absurd reasons), is dead, then what claim does said community have upon its borders?

Alas, I do think there should be a punishment for illegal immigration tied into the same "reform" much as I would consider the same for drug laws. (Another thread my friends.) In essence, a "time served" or fine to clear ones name.

Rather than posit the standard questions as I fear they would descend into nationalist and racist parody I will let our esteemed members opine, as well as our new friend Paul and any others who are free from the corporate mind-control. So insert your own ideas about "harming the purity of the community", "unstoppable crimewave", "No Man's Land", "DEY TOOK URRR JERRRBBBS" and "STEALING WELFARE!!!"

Feel free to discuss things like the recent amusing Arizona law or whatever your non-American backwater country is fretting about.

So, what's the deal with brown people trying to come into our country? [/Seinfeld]

Damn tacofuckers.

[J@3]

I used to care a whole lot more about this but I was grinded down over the years by our new nation of bleeding heart do-gooders who are in constant competition with each other to see who can come across the most accepting and the least racist. "Oh so the burqa only covers 90% of your face? That's totally cool, I love new cultures! Stop being racist and let her... or is it a him? I think it's a her, it has breasts. Wait what I'm sorry that was culturally insensitive of me, I am so sorry I swear I have black friends. Anyway, let it into the bank already!".

What I don't understand is why we have such a hard time with migrants assimilating in the first place. What other self respecting country on Earth would not allow the freaking flag of said country to be flown on it's most famous beach in fear of angering foreigners? There's a Muslim school (primary school I believe) in Queensland that wouldn't allow the national anthem to be sung. It is insanity. I'm over the whole "WE'LL LOSE OUR NATIONAL IDENTITY!!" thing, but when absolute basics like the bloody flag and anthem of the fucking country are seen as a bridge too far for some people that's when I start wanting them all packed up and shipped back to wherever they came from.

Also, all new migrants should learn deodorant and English. In that order.

[puttincomputers]

it amazes me that the democrats of the usa are open to slavery. Remember the african slaves back in the day? they were paid housing and a small amount of food. Now we have hispanic slaves who get paid less than documented workers.

[rise]

it amazes me that the democrats of the usa are open to slavery. Remember the african slaves back in the day? they were paid housing and a small amount of food. Now we have hispanic slaves who get paid less than documented workers.

Dude, no one wants slavery in the US anymore. Keep up with the times - Dems wanted slavery 150 years ago. Not today. As for illegals, go home.

[shadowgrin]

hispanic slaves who get paid less than documented workers.

That's the point, documentation.
And buy new books puttincomputers, even z02 is mocking you.

[Axel The Great]

You know, the whole reason that immigration is a problem these days, is because what's happening in immigrants' countries. What's going on in Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Central America in general, is, deaths, murders, druglords having a war with the government. Wouldn't you wanna flee from a country like that? Immigrants view America as an opportunity to succeed, and get away from the hell that is their home country.

[NovU]

Seems like both USA and Canada are toughening up the Immigration Laws a bit these days. I've seen these couple who were desperately trying to give a birth in Canada, so they could have better chance at becoming permanent residents. It's totally understandable. Who in the world with right mind wouldn't wanna become Canadian, even Americans carry our flags on their trips. However, it's bit upsetting how far they'd go to acheive it.

[benji]

Who in the world with right mind wouldn't wanna become Canadian

Anyone in their right mind.

You know, the whole reason that immigration is a problem these days, is because what's happening in immigrants' countries. What's going on in Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Central America in general, is, deaths, murders, druglords having a war with the government. Wouldn't you wanna flee from a country like that? Immigrants view America as an opportunity to succeed, and get away from the hell that is their home country.

Major Obvious, that's not why "immigration is a problem" that's why immigration exists people move from a place they don't like to one they see as potentially better.

Immigration is a "problem" because people don't like outsiders "taking" from them. Especially if they're drastically different culturally or ethnically.

it amazes me that the democrats of the usa are open to slavery. Remember the african slaves back in the day? they were paid housing and a small amount of food. Now we have hispanic slaves who get paid less than documented workers.

It's not slavery if you can leave out of your own free will without punishment. And it's not comparable to the slavery that existed from 1789-1865 as there is no generational component to it.

[Wall St. Peon]

In regards to immigration, I feel that whoever is immigrating to another country, legally or illegally, should learn the culture of the country they immigrate to and embrace it.

When I was in college, I was in a linguistics class. I don't recall the discussion exactly, but it was along the lines of "we should learn Spanish to make Mexican migrants feel more comfortable." I was at odds with 90% of the class and the professor when I actually said, "That's a bunch of bullshit." My argument was...."If you move to France, you learn French, you learn the French culture, and you adapt. If you move to Germany, you learn the German language, you learn the culture, and you adapt. Why do people who are third/fourth/fifth generation Americans have to adapt to the migrants?"

I have no problem with people coming to the US to better themselves. However, they should do it legally and they should embrace the culture and become fluent in English and understand our culture. We shouldn't celebrate the Mexican or Canadian independence days, we shouldn't make Spanish a requirement to be a teacher; English should be a requirement for students.

The "undocumented worker" or "undocumented student" labels are a crock of shit, a PC cop out that does no one any good. It encourages illegal immigration and basically says it's OK. Anchor babies are another problem. Issues like these will place an increasing financial burden on this country in terms of education costs, welfare costs, and law enforcement costs. Someone said "do you blame them for leaving?" No, I don't; but htey should enter the country correctly. We won't turn anyone away unless they're criminal. But you have to go through the process. That's what Ellis Island was for...why should someone who ran across a border get the same (or more, in some instances) benefits as I?

[J@3]

My argument was...."If you move to France, you learn French, you learn the French culture, and you adapt. If you move to Germany, you learn the German language, you learn the culture, and you adapt. Why do people who are third/fourth/fifth generation Americans have to adapt to the migrants?"

That's basically how I look at it. When I was in France their attitude was pretty much "if you don't speak French, that's your problem". Some of them spoke English but a lot of them, even if they could, chose not to because they expect people who come to France to be able to speak their language. For some reason if you live in a predominantly English speaking country to expect the same makes you a racist.

[koberulz]

It encourages illegal immigration and basically says it's OK.

Is it really that big a problem?

[Andrew]

My argument was...."If you move to France, you learn French, you learn the French culture, and you adapt. If you move to Germany, you learn the German language, you learn the culture, and you adapt. Why do people who are third/fourth/fifth generation Americans have to adapt to the migrants?"

That's basically how I look at it. When I was in France their attitude was pretty much "if you don't speak French, that's your problem". Some of them spoke English but a lot of them, even if they could, chose not to because they expect people who come to France to be able to speak their language. For some reason if you live in a predominantly English speaking country to expect the same makes you a racist.

Pretty much sums up my feelings on legal immigration. No matter who you are, if you're going to live in a new country with a different culture, laws and language, there has to be an effort to assimilate. I have a friend who's currently living in Saudi Arabia and of course she has to wear a burka except while she's at work in the hospital. Fair enough, that's the law and the culture; if you don't like it, don't live or vacation there. "When in Rome..." really should be a global philosophy and while that doesn't mean check everything about your culture at the door or that certain arrangements can't be made, you've got to at least meet the new country halfway and at least speak the language well enough to get by and respect the local culture and law. It seems to me that's just common courtesy for any immigrant, including anyone going from an English speaking country to a non-English speaking one.

As far as illegal immigration is concerned, I'm not completely unsympathetic to their plight and there are people escaping terrible conditions through desperate means. I don't think all illegal immigrants should be completely demonised but at the end of the day a law is being broken and correct procedure is not being followed. If you're going to be a citizen in a country then you've got to obey the law, the same as anyone who was born there.

[NovU]

Canada is a country that is built on multiculturalism. Hindus are allowed to wear turbans instead of helmets when riding bicycles or motorcycles. The world is getting smaller these days. We need to be more accepting I think. Reading a few posts here, I just wanted to drop a line...

[shadowgrin]

Canada is a country that is built on multiculturalism. Hindus are allowed to wear turbans instead of helmets when riding bicycles or motorcycles.

That's good on a 'tolerance' standpoint but on a safety pov, that's fucking stupid.

[Oznogrd]

When I was in college, I was in a linguistics class. I don't recall the discussion exactly, but it was along the lines of "we should learn Spanish to make Mexican migrants feel more comfortable." I was at odds with 90% of the class and the professor when I actually said, "That's a bunch of bullshit." My argument was...."If you move to France, you learn French, you learn the French culture, and you adapt. If you move to Germany, you learn the German language, you learn the culture, and you adapt. Why do people who are third/fourth/fifth generation Americans have to adapt to the migrants?"

Hear fucking hear Shane.

I took a linguistics class that was part of African American studies courses and was told things like Standardized tests shouldnt penalize students for African American Vernacular English (Ebonics), Spanglish, or any other language "difference". Part of schooling is to learn proper English, why shouldnt a student have to just because they're a minority? Its horseshit. I couldn't write "y'all" or "yippe-kai-yay motherfucker" on a test...why can they write "aks" and not be penalized?

As far as immigration goes: The problem lies in the fact we do turn some people away who do it legally. Its also expensive as hell to do legally. In some of those central american countries too, the corrupt locals make the costs skyrocket even higher than they should. However I also know that alot of illegals are receiving benefits that should be only afforded to legal citizens. I got no problem with them trying to make a better life for themself, but theres a point it just becomes stealing. Now if someone has been coming here for 10 years, has moved their family over, and all that: im all for amnesty and allowing them the right and chance to become a citizen. People who want to just work here and receive our government benefits but stay in mexico when they dont need money/healthcare? fuck that.

Another issue to bring up in this debate: the wall/fence at the border. What do you guys think of that? I personally believe its a waste of fucking money. As shown on Penn & Teller's Bullshit, you can hire 6 random migrant workers and the longest it would take them to go over, under, or through the proposed type of wall they're building is 6 minutes. Its not even really going to slow down border jumpers. Just putting a wall instead of a river in the way.

[koberulz]

theres a point it just becomes stealing.

Is there? It's not as though the illegal immigrants earn enough to pay income tax, and they obviously end up paying sales tax and whatnot.

[J@3]

They wouldn't pay income tax no matter what they're earning. Also if they're collecting government benefits while being in the country illegally that would be some sort of stealing. You could go to jail for it here. Not that I'd mind some of them coming here, we don't have enough good Mexican restaurants.

That's good on a 'tolerance' standpoint but on a safety pov, that's fucking stupid.

Meh, if they're that retarded they can just take themselves out. If I was ever going to rob a bank or a convenience store I would wear a burqa.

[koberulz]

Technically stealing, perhaps, but if they wouldn't be paying income tax even if they weren't illegal, and still pay sales taxes, property taxes, and what have you, all they're really doing is saving the government the handout they'd get for not making enough money.

[puttincomputers]

while they are not paying taxes they are getting the benefits from tax money like education and medical care. so yes they are stealing.

[NovU]

while they are not paying taxes they are getting the benefits from tax money like education and medical care. so yes they are stealing.

Education, maybe(depends on countries). Medical care, no. Last time some foreigner got hurt without insurance, he ended up selling the house to cover the bill. That happens quite often.

And as koberulz already pointed out, whether you're legal or not, everybody's bound to pay taxes in a way or the other. The problem boils down to how they effect the community, job market and such. Mexicans in States, people claim they cause trouble and steal jobs. Some claim they're an essential part of the society as economy also could benefit from them.

Recent law changes I think is not to get rid of them, but to have more control over illegal immigrants as well as legal ones.

[puttincomputers]

actually the health care law that was recently passed here in the states specifically states that undocumented workers can get health care paid by the government.

[NovU]

As far as I know(since I ain't no americon), doesn't that apply only for emergency matters and still doesn't cover most of what ordinary citizens get? However, I hear women and children almost get fair treatment on medical benefits. Even so, it's an improvement, I guess.

So let's say you're right and they're stealing, but don't they give something in return as well? Typical case of gain vs loss. That's where I was getting at.

[puttincomputers]

think about this. american citizens cant get jobs (16.8% actual unemployment http://voices.washingtonpost.com/econom ... _hits.html *) and the illegals are taking what jobs the citizens could get and then they send that money to mexico and it does not circulate in the states.

* the figure listed above is out of date. it is 16.6% percent as of June. http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/le ... -rate.aspx

for about this subject go here. http://economistsview.typepad.com/econo ... mployment/

[Andrew]

Canada is a country that is built on multiculturalism. Hindus are allowed to wear turbans instead of helmets when riding bicycles or motorcycles. The world is getting smaller these days. We need to be more accepting I think. Reading a few posts here, I just wanted to drop a line...

Acceptance is a two way street. Like I said before, it's not a matter of checking your culture at the door and leaving it all behind but there has to be some integration and assimilation with the culture you're joining. Even if it's as simple as making sure you can speak the language fluently enough to get by.

[koberulz]

while they are not paying taxes they are getting the benefits from tax money like education and medical care. so yes they are stealing.

They wouldn't be earning enough to pay income tax even if they were legal, and would instead be getting government handouts from your tax money. That's the opposite of stealing.

think about this. american citizens cant get jobs (16.8% actual unemployment http://voices.washingtonpost.com/econom ... _hits.html *)

"The unofficial number starts with the official rate and then adds in everyone else who should be working full time but is not, including those whose hours have been reduced from full time to part time, those who have become so discouraged they have given up looking for work." Including people who are working and people who are too lazy to look for a job. Why should someone who isn't looking for a job give a shit who's working and who isn't?

and the illegals are taking what jobs the citizens could get

Citizens are too lazy to do the jobs immigrants do. Further, if they came in legally they'd take the same job.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=walmart

http://maddox.xmission.com/hatemail.cgi?p=1#CLUETRAIN

and then they send that money to mexico and it does not circulate in the states.

I'm sure they spend plenty of it in the States, and it's not like money doesn't come in from other countries. I've spent hundreds of dollars in the US.