The Debate Thread: Religion

[benji]

So let's put this out of the way and keep it here.

What I Know: You're all heretics for acting against the Cat Lords.

What I Think: Religion is an extended appeal to authority which means nothing and one should believe what they believe. And not enforce it upon any other.

So, alas, here we go.

Is there a God?
Is there any deity?
Is there a work that imparts the Entire Truth?
Are there prophets?
Is there an afterlife?
Is there a Heaven?
Are Filipinos ever going to Heaven?
Is there a Hell?
Is there reincarnation?
A yin or a yang?
Are your thetans in check?
Is Scientology a cult?
Is Muhammad (PBUH) sacred?
Is the only true challenger to the Cat Lords, Darko?
What should be done with non-believers? And if they resist?
Was Madonna right?
Is a "secular" religion possible?

Is there a one-true Religion? Why is one more truthful or superior to another?

[J@3]

I've always seen religion as a tool people use to make themselves feel better about the idea of dying. When you think about it, the "ultimate goal" is to get into heaven, and they do that by doing good in life, going to church and filling their houses with cheap plastic crosses etc. No one would do that shit if they thought once you died you were just gone. There's always got to be something more, we are too important to no longer exist blah blah so religion just helps them deal with that. Applies to all of them, especially Islam. I mean they call their version of heaven "paradise".

Is there a God? I don't know.
Is there any deity? I'd doubt it.
Is there a work that imparts the Entire Truth? No.
Are there prophets? No.
Is there an afterlife? I don't know.
Is there a Heaven? I don't know/think so.
Are Filipinos ever going to Heaven? No.
Is there a Hell? Newcastle, NSW, Australia.
Is there reincarnation? No idea.
A yin or a yang? Both. I had them on a t-shirt.
Are your thetans in check? NO NEVER!!
Is Scientology a cult? Pretty much.
Is Muhammad (PBUH) sacred? No.
Is the only true challenger to the Cat Lords, Darko? The only true challengers name needs to begin with A. Austin Daye, Adrian Dantley etc
What should be done with non-believers? And if they resist? If they are too vocal about it kick their asses.
Was Madonna right? About being a material girl in a material World? I suppose she was.
Is a "secular" religion possible? I don't know what this means but no.

[benji]

Is the only true challenger to the Cat Lords, Darko? The only true challengers name needs to begin with A. Austin Daye, Adrian Dantley etc

Or initials of A.D. So..After Darko? But Dantley came before?

Was Madonna right? About being a material girl in a material World? I suppose she was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah

Is a "secular" religion possible? I don't know what this means but no.

I was thinking of many many things, all of which believe there was some "Eden" that the "sins" of humanity are "corrupting" which will lead to an "apocalypse" all of which just happens to be able to be solved by the "common folk" paying a "tithe" to the "disciples" to avoid this "apocalypse" as they "guide" humanity by the "hands of God." Absent of any real evidence of course.

And I've probably derailed with that.

[Lamrock]

Is there a God? No. Theoretically there's no way of disproving that there is one, but "God" is something the human race invented (Or, how Benji more eloquently put it, a meaningless extended appeal to authority)
Is there any deity? Yes. He is somewhere in Serbia wearing two halves of a Minnesota Timberwolves jersey.
Is there a work that imparts the Entire Truth? I don't think so.
Are there prophets? No.
Is there an afterlife? Certainly not.
Is there a Heaven? Yes.
Are Filipinos ever going to Heaven? I doubt it.
Is there a Hell? The Phillippines
Is there reincarnation? No
A yin or a yang? In a sense
Are your thetans in check? No, but I get paid tomorrow
Is Scientology a cult? Isn't that the point>
Is Muhammad (PBUH) sacred?
Is the only true challenger to the Cat Lords, Darko? Yes, but he may need some help from the Kandi Man.
What should be done with non-believers? And if they resist? Send them to the Phillippines and/or have Patrick Chewing dunk on them.
Was Madonna right? No.
Is a "secular" religion possible? Definitely.

[Andrew]

Is there a Hell? Newcastle, NSW, Australia.

Jerk.

Anyway...religion. As far as I'm concerned, everyone's entitled their beliefs. If religion gives people's lives purpose or comfort about their own mortality or in times of need and it helps them be better people or overcome their issues, so be it. So long as they can agree to disagree, practice what they preach and leave others to their own path, then I have no quarrel with those people. Whatever works for you. It's folks who want to impose their religion on other people and have society cater to their beliefs that bug me, especially when they're following a corrupted version of their tenets. I'd of course put the people who want to fly planes into buildings in that group but fortunately most of us don't encounter those people on a regular basis.

It especially bugs me when they waggle scolding fingers at other people when their own doctrine says that only the higher being they believe in is supposed to judge people and thump said doctrine as "proof" and something we all should believe in, when they're clearly picking and choosing which parts they want to follow. And if called on that, they spout something ridiculous about this tenet or that being "liberal nonsense"...in the doctrine they hold sacred. It seems just a tad hypocritical to me. Surely that belief is a package deal.

[benji]

I don't think the "scolding" or even the "doctrine as proof" is necessarily a bad thing, we all do that to those we disapprove with. We scold people for racism and many other things.

The problem stems first from what I noted in the OP and as Lamrock noted, the appeal to authority which makes it a fallacy.

There are aspects of all religions, and as I pointed out in another thread most of the Ten Commandments (another question I ignored in the OP), that everyone basically agrees with. We agree with many of the metaphors and concepts. Everyone loves the idea of David v. Goliath. People love the idea of karma. The birth of the "secular religions" I think proves this is inherent to the human condition. The Golden Rule lives deep in nearly all societies. Most rituals were not birthed of irrationality but seemed sane at the time and continued through tradition as they could not be superseded. Completely irreligious people wear jerseys for their favorite team on game day. They take the same path to the stadium. They adjust who sits where. (Celtic Pride! The League!) And that doesn't even touch on the environmental movement which is one big ritual to a "perfect state of nature" that never existed.

And of course the ultimate problem, is as you reach towards, the institutionalization of such "scolding" tenants.

[Andrew]

Well, another example along the lines of what I was trying to get at would be Kevin Smith receiving death threats from people who were upset about Dogma. Now, they're obviously free to take issue with the movie's plot and subject matter if it offends their beliefs. That's fine. But I just find it kind of funny that those beliefs that were offended are also pretty big on "thou shalt not kill", yet they're sending death threats. They're threatening an action that's just as big a sin (according to their doctrine) as any blaspheming that Smith was guilty of. I don't mean to generalise here, obviously not everyone with religious beliefs adopts a stance like that but there certainly those who do and I wonder if those people really know what they believe in, or whether they just get riled up when someone (supposedly) insults their beliefs.

[Phil89]

phpBB [video]

[benji]

You can't summate that for those unwilling to view a likely poor ten minute video so that those interested can debate your point?

[Oznogrd]

Religions an intriguing subject for me. I've grown up in the bible belt in a town where even the public schools cow to the whims of the fundamentalist southern baptist majority. 3000 students in my high school: about half of them went to the same misguided church.

Let's start at the beginning though. I was brought up in a two religion family. On my mother's side, we have new york Jews. On my Dad's side: southern baptist rednecks. I started out being brought up christian (we didnt go to church though, when i was born the congregation asked my Dad why God was punishing him with a disabled child), going as far as to read 3 bible stories out of my kid friendly bible a day. When I went to vacation bible school, i enjoyed myself. I had very religious friends (my best friend wasn't allowed to watch power rangers), and tried to do things like not swear, not get mad at people, not have a short temper etc. Every single night, i felt guilty and dirty for my own nature which was anger and swearing: especially in middle school.

Well, when i became a teenager i started actually listening to what preachers were telling me. I was a sinner automatically. My parents were also sinners. The proof of this? I was in a wheelchair. At the same time, I was being told I was a sinner again for not trying to convert my Jewish family and my two best friends (who happened to be Hindu). It was this point I started saying "maybe this isnt for me." Then as the preachers began to attack every band I listened to, I saw "good christian kids" setting my favorite album at the time on fire in the parking lot because "it was evil." At this camp where i saw the burning album, we were sent outside to pray and connect with god on our own. I sat in a field looking up at the stars and realized I was talking to myself. From that point on, I stopped being religious.

In high school, I became a vocal atheist against the religious majority. My English classes and even my science classes constantly brought up religious discussions like "what is sin?" "is evolution possible?" "Does every major work of art have to be about Christianity?" "Does the religion of our President matter?" I fought the side of reason and couldn't understand how people could be on the side of religion and be intellient. At the same time though, i met two people who practiced what they preached. When they found I was atheist, they asked me about it, we discussed our differring views, we knew we weren't going to "save" each other, we didnt judge and we stayed friends till graduation. My hindu friends were constantly handed flyers trying to convert them, and no teacher ever did a thing about it. When I asked these propaganda spreaders, if they were born into christianity would it be ok to try to convert them to hinduism they said No. They didnt get my point when I laughed. There's more stories I could tell, but these are basically the point. My friends and I were outcast for not being religious...in a public school.

Well, I had no point for religion and didnt understand why other people did until college when my grandfather died. With college courses, drinking, and the stress of dealing with family issues from 1100 miles away: i finally understood religion. It gives people a way to cope with the uncopable, it gives them solace when nothing else can help. Well: it still didnt do that for me: but at least i somewhat understood. I'm not against religion completely anymore: but I still don't need it and therefore hold on to my atheist leaning/agnostic views despite wanting to marry a girl who was very Catholic.

Currently I lean towards taoist beliefs: theres a driving energy to the universe, everything comes from and returns to it. But a sentient God who says "Do what I say or I'll fucking spank you?" Not so much

Is there a God? Probably not a sentient one
Is there any deity? Probably not a sentient one
Is there a work that imparts the Entire Truth? Nah
Are there prophets? In a philosophical/societal sense: sure, prophets that speak to god? Probably not
Is there an afterlife? If there is, im going to Hell with alot of good people
Is there a Heaven? If there is and I go there, can i refuse to take my legs back?
Are Filipinos ever going to Heaven? Shadows going to hell with me, so...Lean maybe?
Is there a Hell? nah but if there is, i'll be in there with everyone i hang out with
Is there reincarnation? I doubt it: most of that past life regression shit is egged on by the therapist and is something the person read in a story or saw in a movie
A yin or a yang? Maybe not in a religious sense, but of course there's balancing sides to everyone/everything.
Are your thetans in check? Nah. I like my alien spirits and intend to keep them. Pain is proof you're alive.
Is Scientology a cult? The difference between religion and a cult is a cult charges you money to believe. Scientology requires money to "advance" your beliefs. so yes.
Is Muhammad (PBUH) sacred? Nah. South Park showed him in season 5 and no one gave a fuck, so why does it suddenly matter?
Is the only true challenger to the Cat Lords, Darko? I thought it was Kwame myself.
What should be done with non-believers? And if they resist? Part the red sea then collapse it on top of them..oh wait
Was Madonna right? NO, she was never "like a virgin"
Is a "secular" religion possible? No

Is there a one-true Religion? Why is one more truthful or superior to another? Nope. Universalist/Unitarian ftw.

[Andrew]

Quite a few of your stories stand out as examples of folks not really knowing what they believing in/believing in a corrupted version of the doctrine, but this one stands out to me right away:

(we didnt go to church though, when i was born the congregation asked my Dad why God was punishing him with a disabled child)

That's terrible. To me, that's not Christianity, the same as acts of terrorism are not Islam. It's bigotry and hatred that's somehow been woven into religious ideals with which they'd normally conflict. It's a shame for other people of faith who do hold true to the ideals of their religion.

[Oznogrd]

Quite a few of your stories stand out as examples of folks not really knowing what they believing in/believing in a corrupted version of the doctrine, but this one stands out to me right away:

That's terrible. To me, that's not Christianity, the same as acts of terrorism are not Islam. It's bigotry and hatred that's somehow been woven into religious ideals with which they'd normally conflict. It's a shame for other people of faith who do hold true to the ideals of their religion.

Yup and like I said thats only a few of the stories. Another one? That giant church i spoke of has what im told is an awesome vacation bible school over the summer. Its split into age groups and each age group is based in a different area. A certain building/the basement of the Church is "The Hangar" where the teenager group has their bible school. A friend of mine in a chair went to this church and was excited to get to be in the Teen group finally. Well..they refused to move the camp or to provide accommadations and told her she could not attend bible school unless she wanted to be with the younger kids. In my opinion, Wouldnt Christian "friends" want to carry her down the stairs so she could worship with them rather than be excluded?

The problem lies in that the Bible contains allegory, metaphor, and things that go over your everyday person's head. Preachers interpret them in their own individual way with their own biases/agenda. That agenda comes out and bullshit occurs.

Also; going on missionary trips and sneaking liquor and getting drunk with your friends defeats the purpose.

[Andrew]

The problem lies in that the Bible contains allegory, metaphor, and things that go over your everyday person's head. Preachers interpret them in their own individual way with their own biases/agenda. That agenda comes out and bullshit occurs.

Agreed, though there are some lessons/rules/principles that are very clear that they seem to have flat out ignored or severely warped.

[shadowgrin]

Is there a God?
Yes. Skeptics/critics dismiss it as an adult's imaginary friend. If that's the case, leave me alone with my friend. I'm happy that way.

Is there any deity?
Possibly. Can I be one?

Is there a work that imparts the Entire Truth?
Yes. A self-written biography of Paul Pierce.

Are there prophets?
People who serve as messengers of a higher power? Yes. They are commonly known as salesmen (or salespeople if you want pc).

Is there an afterlife?
Yes. Entertaining game.

Is there a Heaven?
Yes. It's a place where you're happy right?

Are Filipinos ever going to Heaven?
If Heaven accepts illegal aliens, why not.

Is there a Hell?
Yes. Opposite of Heaven.

Is there reincarnation?
Yes. I swear I met that very angry dog in a past life where I bit him for neutering me.

A yin or a yang?
Yes. That's what I call my left and right nut.

Are your thetans in check?
Yes. They are even having a prayer meeting right now.

Is Scientology a cult?
No. Its a very efficient business organization.

Is Muhammad (PBUH) sacred?
No, because that would go against his own teachings of giving praise only, and only, to Allah.

Is the only true challenger to the Cat Lords, Darko?
Darko needs help I'm afraid. There's only so many jerseys he can rip off in a lifetime.

What should be done with non-believers? And if they resist?
Mock them endlessly and call them stupid.

Was Madonna right?
I think she's left-handed.

Is a "secular" religion possible?
Yes. Do Trekkies count?

[cyanide]

Born into a Catholic upbringing, I was fascinated with Christianity in my pursuit to understand the world around me until I found peace being a deist (belief that there is a higher power that doesn't intervene). I could be an atheist, but when I think about how we're all conscious beings in a vast and expansive universe, I can't help but ask what came before the universe? The universe could have been created from nothingness. THEN WHO WAS NOTHINGNESS?

Is there a God? In the traditionalist sense, no.
Is there any deity? Some higher power, yes.
Is there a work that imparts the Entire Truth? No.
Are there prophets? No.
Is there an afterlife? Don't know.
Is there a Heaven? No, see Hell.
Are Filipinos ever going to Heaven? No. Not for the reasons NLSC thinks.
Is there a Hell? No, because heaven/hell are reward/punishment constructs.
Is there reincarnation? Don't know.
A yin or a yang? Sure.
Are your thetans in check? Only if I pay enough money.
Is Scientology a cult? Obviously.
Is Muhammad (PBUH) sacred? No, but you could make him sacred if you want.
Is the only true challenger to the Cat Lords, Darko? Maybe.
What should be done with non-believers? And if they resist? They're free to believe in what they want.
Was Madonna right? On so many levels.
Is a "secular" religion possible? Yes, they're free to believe in what they want.

Is there a one-true Religion? Why is one more truthful or superior to another? No, but I do find that most religions have meaningful messages. I find Buddhism to be an attractive religion. The teachings of Jesus is meaningful but most Christians are batshit insane. Gandhi said it well: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

[shadowgrin]

But Gandhi is a dirty old man who sleeps naked with young girls.
Google it folks!

[el badman]

Is there a God? Nah, just an invention
Is there any deity? Nope, no one's looking over us
Is there a work that imparts the Entire Truth? No
Are there prophets? Only that Puerto Rican dude with bling who says he is the reincarnation of Jesus, he looks credible enough
Is there an afterlife? no, hay nada
Is there a Heaven? loaded with enough hallucinogens, there may very well be
Are Filipinos ever going to Heaven? blasphemy!
Is there a Hell? the San Fernando Valley, CA
Is there reincarnation? if there is, I better be a cat the next time around, they got night vision
A yin or a yang? sort of
Are your thetans in check? they're just dandy, Dianetics really work!
Is Scientology a cult? like any other religion, no less absurd
Is Muhammad (PBUH) sacred? nope, a farce, just like the others
Is the only true challenger to the Cat Lords, Darko? it appears so, all hail!
What should be done with non-believers? And if they resist? they shall be raped, the all fashioned way
Was Madonna right? she was tricked into becoming a whore
Is a "secular" religion possible? sounds unlikely
Is there a one-true Religion? Why is one more truthful or superior to another? they're all an equal reminder of our shortcomings as human beings, the only truth is that we're weak since we have to resort to this masquerade

[benji]

I never really intended this as a list thread, but am amused how it came out.

That said, I've never respected the concept of religion more than since Father Jonathan started appearing on Red Eye. I still don't, and still won't believe. But everything he says makes complete sense in terms of being logically connected if I am willing to accept that first premise. Plus he's beyond awesome.

And as I think many here know, I was not against religion ever, instead thinking it foolish while supporting the rights of people to believe it. And belief as its absolute core, and the moral arguments separate and things that are not inherently wrong. But Father Jonathan has really started to make me think about it far more from its moral points than the other things which so many, on both sides focus on at the determent of the key teachings which can make you think about philosophical foundations.

I should again state, I will not become religious that I can foresee, for example just look at my NBA Talk postings alone, I work inherently as believing anything anyone says is wrong. But I do think there are possible merits in these works as I outlined in the prior thread.

For example, not killing people or stealing their stuff. But yet, that does require some religious belief I suppose. It requires me to believe in natural rights and reject the idea that people are subjects of the most powerful, and that all people should subject themselves to being ordered around by those who claim power.

But I digress. I suppose I am naive, in that I believe that all can practice their own personal religion and enjoy their own natural rights while refusing to force others into the same religion. But then I realize that such claims were always made on the idea of temptation by outsiders.

It is interesting, and not really unrelated to those of us who feel that plurality rule should not allow people to enslave others for any reason just so said plurality can live like kings at the ruin of the rest. But this is not something I can entirely consider common to the human condition. Indeed, I'd say the opposite is true, in that we all want to rule over and enforce our beliefs on everyone else.

But in the end, anything I say about religion most likely finds itself running into what I said in the OP. We can't agree on these things, nor debate the others for long before we wind up with "BECAUSE GOD SAYS SO!" It's the same with any group, say Keynesians, who can't accept they're appealing to a failed authority instead of finding a reason for their claims.

[Andrew]

For example, not killing people or stealing their stuff. But yet, that does require some religious belief I suppose. It requires me to believe in natural rights and reject the idea that people are subjects of the most powerful, and that all people should subject themselves to being ordered around by those who claim power.

Perhaps, but then maybe it's simply a primal survival instinct, just intellectualised. Whereas in the animal kingdom there are certain species that follow an instinct of kill or be killed, we've gone the other way in an effort to protect our species. Similarly, theft and destruction of property could be seen as threatening individual survival since we need money to buy food, pay rates and taxes and even comforts that we feel we can't live without (so they too become part of the survival instinct). We've intellectualised the instinct with the concepts of right and wrong, with religious belief being a means of enforcing those concepts, or simply explaining that instinct and putting a face/story to it.