Lakers ensure more rings to come, dream team in place

[Valor]

Tell me that when Dwyane Wade can play at least 80 games a season first and produce as much as Kobe does.

Look friend you first tell me Drose can play some games without blowing his knee then we talk about Dwane okay?? He is the best SG and more efficience and you are Chicago fan so you never will admit he is best SG if you look at the numbers GOSH some people on this place

Oh, now you going to take shots at Derrick Rose because I pointed out a fact about Wade? I am not just talking about numbers. If it's just numbers there's one that blows Wade out already and that's ring count. Wade in his prime wasn't the best SG in the league, now with him on a sharp decline and Kobe coming off one of his most efficient seasons? Please, it's not even a discussion. As you pointed out, I'm a Chicago fan, no reason for me to take the side of a Laker, and Wade IS from Chicago, so there's your claim of me being biased gone to trash. Look at yourself before you go sarcastic and judge others, hypocrite.

It isn't "by far" anymore, Harden changed that last season.

By doing what? Jacking up shots at a sub 40% clip, flopping his way to the line, turning the ball over and playing no defense?

Getting to the line always has been James Harden's strength, he loves to drive and draw contact, flopping or not, it's not surprising why he gets the calls. And he wasn't the one who was on the team that were desperate to make the playoffs with referees' help from mid season(Remember whose FTA took a big hike suddenly, not Harden's, someone else became untouchable, you look at him, they called fouls). And he shot better TS% than Kobe. Also note that his team won games with offense, now guess who was the biggest contributor in that aspect for offensive Juggernaut Rockets. Yet Harden's defensively defected team was a better defensive team than Kobe's Lakers.

Here's the thing. Harden's team overachieved vastly but none of it is due to Harden's excellency?? (Compare that to The Lakers underachieving greatly, but it's never Kobe's fault because he scored 30ppg, omg?!). Remember before Harden trade, nobody took the Rockets as a playoffs team, with Lin and Asik core, lol. And we still have this stupid talk on Harden's ability in W column.

I probably haven't said it on here, but I've never seen Harden as the reason why the Rockets went to the postseason last year, Asik was. You look at the astronomical difference in the Rockets play with Asik on and off the court last season. Without him the Rockets are trash, with him playing Houston's defense was able to go from trash to middle-of-the-pack, which was a huge reason why they were able to be an "offensive juggernaut", which they were not.

I said it then and I maintain my stance, with Lin, Asik, Kevin Martin, Parsons etc at that time Houston was going to the playoffs. Harden actually made them WORSE by stopping ball movement. Just watch some of Houston's games, it's even worse now that Howard is there, a lot of possessions the ball either gets stuck to Howard or Harden for 20 seconds before they move it and have to force up a bad shot. It's pathetic.

Kobe Bryant, who is still the best SG in the league by far and hasn't given any indications of a decline in production last season

LoL. Not in my world

Obviously, seeing as your favorite player is Wade. Who has never at any point in his career been as good as Kobe Bryant.

It may not be entirely his fault but it is HIS enormous contract's fault. He's getting paid the most in the league by vast margin once again while he's hardly a top 20 player. It's because of that people were suggesting he could have taken less. All of us know this is more business deal than basketball deal which you seem to be claiming it's actually close to a basketball deal because Kobe's still the best player at his position that wins you tons of games.

So you think he should've told management he wants less money on his contract when he's presented with that offer and especially when he is arguably worth that sky-high price due to his production AND the ticket-selling? It's both a business deal and a basketball deal. Should they have offered less to start with? Yes. Was it Kobe's fault? No. Stop pretending it was some scrub getting a huge contract. He's Kobe frigging Bryant, a guy who CARRIED the Lakers last season dragging the self-conceited overrated inept diva known as Dwight Howard to the playoffs.

And are you serious? Kobe isn't a top 20 player!? If that's a joke that's a good one.

[NovU]

I probably haven't said it on here, but I've never seen Harden as the reason why the Rockets went to the postseason last year, Asik was. You look at the astronomical difference in the Rockets play with Asik on and off the court last season. Without him the Rockets are trash, with him playing Houston's defense was able to go from trash to middle-of-the-pack, which was a huge reason why they were able to be an "offensive juggernaut", which they were not.

I said it then and I maintain my stance, with Lin, Asik, Kevin Martin, Parsons etc at that time Houston was going to the playoffs. Harden actually made them WORSE by stopping ball movement. Just watch some of Houston's games, it's even worse now that Howard is there, a lot of possessions the ball either gets stuck to Howard or Harden for 20 seconds before they move it and have to force up a bad shot. It's pathetic.

Asik was important because no other big was as good as Asik for the team. But he isn't anything as special as Harden for the Rockets. That's just absurd.

The Rockets were 6th in offense and 16th in defense. Also notice none of offensive better teams had worse defense than the Rockets. This was the season where the Rockets lived and died by offense, topping the league in Pace. If the Grizzlies used full 24 second clock to get a shot off, the Rockets just took a shot at the first look they got.

And no, Kevin Martin would NEVER have been better for the Rockets than Harden, kidding me, lol.

And the Rockets this season are a fine team, so don't worry. They're 3rd in offense and 12th in defense. They're an improved team no matter how you think possessions get stuck and look pathetic. They don't need Asik anymore btw.

So you think he should've told management he wants less money on his contract when he's presented with that offer and especially when he is arguably worth that sky-high price due to his production AND the ticket-selling? It's both a business deal and a basketball deal. Should they have offered less to start with? Yes. Was it Kobe's fault? No. Stop pretending it was some scrub getting a huge contract. He's Kobe frigging Bryant, a guy who CARRIED the Lakers last season dragging the self-conceited overrated inept diva known as Dwight Howard to the playoffs.

So he's Kobe friggin Bryant so you give him all the money you can? That's just stupid and silly and sadly exactly what happened, which the fans are pointing fingers at. But hey, don't forget I'm the first one that acknowledged that he deserved all the contract money purely in business sense.

And are you serious? Kobe isn't a top 20 player!? If that's a joke that's a good one.

At this point? I can say that.

[shadowgrin]

[Jackal]

Look friend you first tell me Drose can play some games without blowing his knee then we talk about Dwane okay?? He is the best SG and more efficience and you are Chicago fan so you never will admit he is best SG if you look at the numbers GOSH some people on this place

Oh, now you going to take shots at Derrick Rose because I pointed out a fact about Wade? I am not just talking about numbers. If it's just numbers there's one that blows Wade out already and that's ring count. Wade in his prime wasn't the best SG in the league, now with him on a sharp decline and Kobe coming off one of his most efficient seasons? Please, it's not even a discussion. As you pointed out, I'm a Chicago fan, no reason for me to take the side of a Laker, and Wade IS from Chicago, so there's your claim of me being biased gone to trash. Look at yourself before you go sarcastic and judge others, hypocrite.

Look guy i dont want to fight with you and say long things in this post so lets not fight ok

fuck you cuz dwane wade is the best good for you you cant read this small lines

[Andrew]

Well that's the thing, it's not like he didn't take less money, he just took the one and only deal the Lakers gave him. What was he to do? Tell them to give him the minimum? (Which I've seen a lot of people suggesting...)

No question. I think some people expected him to save the Lakers' ownership from themselves and say "Look, I appreciate this offer and what it says about all my years of service, but what's your plan for us to have a chance at contending these next two years? I will take less money if it means we can bring in some quality players." It's not a particularly fair expectation when such a lucrative contract has been put on the table for him without any negotiations, but some fans are going to look at the sacrifices that other players have made and wonder why Kobe - who is all about winning, after all - didn't hesitate and think about the team. Once again though, that's expecting him to do the job of the front office and ownership, and somehow take responsibility for them.

At the end of the day, some fans are a bit disappointed about the possible ramifications it will have on the Lakers re-tooling and getting back into contention, and they just want to lash out. Kobe cops the brunt of it because it's easier to portray him as selfish and greedy, unfair as that may be.

[Valor]

The Rockets were 6th in offense and 16th in defense. Also notice none of offensive better teams had worse defense than the Rockets.

Without Asik they would've been 30th in defense and nowhere near the playoffs

And no, Kevin Martin would NEVER have been better for the Rockets than Harden, kidding me, lol.

Looking at how productive he is and how inefficient Harden is with the ball movement that would've happened without Harden? Yes he would have been in that system.

And the Rockets this season are a fine team, so don't worry. They're 3rd in offense and 12th in defense. They're an improved team no matter how you think possessions get stuck and look pathetic. They don't need Asik anymore btw.

Only because they flop to the line so often, not to mention Jeremy Lin saving their behind all those games before he went down. Did you also forget they were winning big when Harden was out?

So he's Kobe friggin Bryant so you give him all the money you can? That's just stupid and silly and sadly exactly what happened, which the fans are pointing fingers at. But hey, don't forget I'm the first one that acknowledged that he deserved all the contract money purely in business sense.

It wasn't all the money they could've given him, he took a paycut in case you didn't notice. It's not like you are giving 48 million over 2 years to some scrub who can't play.

At this point? I can say that.

To quote Stephen A Smith, that is just blasphemous.

fuck you cuz dwane wade is the best good for you you cant read this small lines

Stay classy Heat fans.

No question. I think some people expected him to save the Lakers' ownership from themselves and say "Look, I appreciate this offer and what it says about all my years of service, but what's your plan for us to have a chance at contending these next two years? I will take less money if it means we can bring in some quality players." It's not a particularly fair expectation when such a lucrative contract has been put on the table for him without any negotiations, but some fans are going to look at the sacrifices that other players have made and wonder why Kobe - who is all about winning, after all - didn't hesitate and think about the team. Once again though, that's expecting him to do the job of the front office and ownership, and somehow take responsibility for them.

At the end of the day, some fans are a bit disappointed about the possible ramifications it will have on the Lakers re-tooling and getting back into contention, and they just want to lash out. Kobe cops the brunt of it because it's easier to portray him as selfish and greedy, unfair as that may be.

Absolutely, it's ridiculous especially given the fact that they bypassed him for all other decisions such as looking to trade Pau away a few years back (before that was blocked by Stern) and hiring Mike D'Antoni over Phil Jackson. Kobe's given nothing less than 110% effort and production for the Lakers, just look at those free throws after he ruptured his Achilles

[NovU]

Without Asik they would've been 30th in defense and nowhere near the playoffs

In what world do you think Asik's a 15 rank differential guy in defense. Do you actually believe he's a Bill Russell in disguise?

Looking at how productive he is and how inefficient Harden is with the ball movement that would've happened without Harden? Yes he would have been in that system.

Only one who's inefficient is Kobrick.

It wasn't all the money they could've given him, he took a paycut in case you didn't notice.

LoL

Only because they flop to the line so often, not to mention Jeremy Lin saving their behind all those games before he went down. Did you also forget they were winning big when Harden was out?

Like this?
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=88853&p=1603958#p1603958

[Valor]

Without Asik they would've been 30th in defense and nowhere near the playoffs

In what world do you think Asik's a 15 rank differential guy in defense. Do you actually believe he's a Bill Russell in disguise?

"Rockets opponents only attempted 30.3 percent of their shots from the restricted area with Asik on the floor last season. And his on-off-court DefRtg differential (5.7 points allowed per 100 possessions) was almost the same as Howard’s (6.0)." and that's with the Rockets giving up a ton of transition baskets with all the Harden turnovers. Also, yes he was a 15 rank differential guy on defense last season, because the Rockets had nobody that could replace his spot in the lineup. They were very lucky that he stayed both healthy and out of foul trouble.

He's not a household name and he doesn't make the highlights unlike those Miami Heat guys you love, but he's one of the best defensive players in the league. Don't like it, suck it up. It's a fact.

Only one who's inefficient is Kobrick.

Obvious who the hater is here.
Kobe last season average 27 on 46%. turnover % of 13%
Harden averaged 25 on 43%, turnover % of 15% (this season 17%)

Who's the more inefficient and ineffective one here? and if you actually watch the games you won't even have to look at the stats to know who's better.

It wasn't all the money they could've given him, he took a paycut in case you didn't notice.

LoL

That is a factually correct statement, don't know why you are denying that.

[NovU]

I see some fair points, but Asik's not the kind of caliber player you think he is. Defense has more to do with system than individual's excellence btw though Asik did a great job on defensive end last season. In fact, there's a trade off for his one dimensional game anyway. But you don't see me going arguing the Rockets could have been top offensive team if it wasn't for Asik, I find the argument stupid just like the one you're saying they'd have fallen to 30th in defense without Asik, Stephen A Smith type of baseless blasphemy no fact no nothing. The bottomline is the Rockets loved to attack and attack and their offense was superior most of night with Harden leading them. (Btw Kobe's defense was MUCH more questionable last season. One of the reasons why some Wade fans raved Wade was the best SG last season which I disagree.)

He's not a household name and he doesn't make the highlights unlike those Miami Heat guys you love, but he's one of the best defensive players in the league. Don't like it, suck it up. It's a fact.

LoL, why does Miami sig bother you? It absolutely has nothing to do with this discussion so don't be like that, aww.

Asik's a defensive oriented big indeed. But I am not convinced about his capability as you fantasize until I see him leading one of the better defensive teams in the league. In fact, there's not a stat that captures individual's defensive ability accurately anyway (as opposed to offense).

Obvious who the hater is here.
Kobe last season average 27 on 46%. turnover % of 13%
Harden averaged 25 on 43%, turnover % of 15% (this season 17%)

Who's the more inefficient and ineffective one here? and if you actually watch the games you won't even have to look at the stats to know who's better.

Is that how you measure efficiency? Purely points scored based on TOV%? LoL

I'll take Harden's 25 on 43% any day as it's actually more efficient. In fact only reason his FG% was lower is because he took more 3s at better rate than Kobe ever did. Do you know anything about TS%? How about Player Efficiency Rating? Kobe had PER 23. Harden equaled that at 4.2% less usage%. Also take a look at ORtg difference. Oh, just for the sake of it, let's also throw in ws/48.

It wasn't all the money they could've given him, he took a paycut in case you didn't notice.

LoL

That is a factually correct statement, don't know why you are denying that.

It would make more sense if better offers were on the table, don't you think? But as you yourself said, he took the only deal that was on the table. HE DID NOT LEAVE ANY MONEY ON THE TABLE. Dwight took a pay cut, LBJ took a pay cut, Duncan took a pay cut, Nash took a pay cut. Kobe? LoL Only real reason you are saying he took a 'paycut' is because he is getting paid historically the most this season. Does NOT change the fact that he's getting overpaid with his new contract which could limit Lakers' upside. That is a fact and focal point you're ignoring in this stupid pointless discussion of yours. Everybody else was pretty much on the same page until you called out on them.

[shadowgrin]

Dwight did not take a paycut.
His salary is still at max of what any team, except the Lakers, can offer him.

[Valor]

I see some fair points, but Asik's not the kind of caliber player you think he is. Defense has more to do with system than individual's excellence btw though Asik did a great job on defensive end last season. In fact, there's a trade off for his one dimensional game anyway. But you don't see me going arguing the Rockets could have been top offensive team if it wasn't for Asik, I find the argument stupid just like the one you're saying they'd have fallen to 30th in defense without Asik, Stephen A Smith type of baseless blasphemy no fact no nothing. The bottomline is the Rockets loved to attack and attack and their offense was superior most of night with Harden leading them. (Btw Kobe's defense was MUCH more questionable last season. One of the reasons why some Wade fans raved Wade was the best SG last season which I disagree.)

The Rockets love to attack because their so-called best player is Harden and all McHale does is give him the ball so he can jack up more shots. The Rockets are middle-of-the-pack defensively because of this fast pace and all those turnovers they get from forcing the action. Kind of hard for Asik to take over defensively when he's a 7 footer running after point guards on fast breaks after Harden either bricks it or turns it over?

As for Kobe's defense, anything he did was better than Harden's complete lack of it
http://i.imgur.com/XLqwcnD.gif
http://i.imgur.com/L9QN8oq.gif
http://i.imgur.com/QKtHedg.gif
http://i.imgur.com/VUgeHXs.gif
http://i.imgur.com/omAjonq.gif
http://i.imgur.com/1lxzauO.gif
http://i.imgur.com/Jh4NGLi.gif
http://i.imgur.com/imbOcmI.gif
http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/ph ... 453239.gif
I mean when you let Jodie Meeks blow by you, there's a problem.

LoL, why does Miami sig bother you? It absolutely has nothing to do with this discussion so don't be like that, aww.

It doesn't bother me, I'm just using them as a comparison as to why some players get praised like they are all time greats and others like Asik get ignored due to style of play. Maybe I should've used Blake Griffin as an example.

Obvious who the hater is here.
Kobe last season average 27 on 46%. turnover % of 13%
Harden averaged 25 on 43%, turnover % of 15% (this season 17%)

Who's the more inefficient and ineffective one here? and if you actually watch the games you won't even have to look at the stats to know who's better.

Is that how you measure efficiency? Purely points scored based on TOV%? LoL

I'll take Harden's 25 on 43% any day as it's actually more efficient. In fact only reason his FG% was lower is because he took more 3s at better rate than Kobe ever did. Do you know anything about TS%? How about Player Efficiency Rating? Kobe had PER 23. Harden equaled that at 4.2% less usage%. Also take a look at ORtg difference. Oh, just for the sake of it, let's also throw in ws/48.[/quote]
I was comparing them both as scorers, which is their role their respective teams. You should take into account who exactly was playing with Kobe last season? Did I forget to mention he had a huge baggage by the name of Dwight Howard who demands the ball in the post and pounds it for 20 seconds before passing it out so Kobe and the others have to shoot a bad shot off before the shot clock expires? I'm shocked Kobe even got 46% shooting with that.

Harden's feeling that now, even though he pounds the ball for 20 seconds himself on alternating possessions with Dwight.

It would make more sense if better offers were on the table, don't you think? But as you yourself said, he took the only deal that was on the table. HE DID NOT LEAVE ANY MONEY ON THE TABLE. Dwight took a pay cut, LBJ took a pay cut, Duncan took a pay cut, Nash took a pay cut. Kobe? LoL Only real reason you are saying he took a 'paycut' is because he is getting paid historically the most this season. Does NOT change the fact that he's getting overpaid with his new contract which could limit Lakers' upside. That is a fact and focal point you're ignoring in this stupid pointless discussion of yours. Everybody else was pretty much on the same page until you called out on them.

What I meant by he took a paycut was he took less per year money than what his current deal pays, that classifies as a paycut don't you think? Normally superstars take an increase in salary, not decrease.

Dwight's deal is still the max and he gets more money in the end because he can opt out. LBJ took a "pay cut" and gets to go to Miami, where he gets to play on a better team and gets more endorsement dollars. Nash chose the Lakers cause he can be closer to his kids. Only valid example you had there was Duncan, who's on the decline.

[benji]

The Rockets are middle-of-the-pack defensively because of this fast pace

7th?

and all those turnovers they get from forcing the action.

Dead last?

[NovU]

The Rockets love to attack because their so-called best player is Harden and all McHale does is give him the ball so he can jack up more shots.

Sounds more like Kobe. How many times has Pau Gasol emphasized on needs of ball movement(he even said *away from Kobe iirc) both implicitly and explicitly? How many times from teammates of his? How about Phil Jackson who even wrote a book how it's impossible to coach Kobe?

Harden's a legitimate playmaker proven from OKC days. You don't have anyone that can replace his production at his usage in this league at his position. It's not McHale that's doing wrong for playing him to his strength.

The Rockets are middle-of-the-pack defensively because of this fast pace and all those turnovers they get from forcing the action. Kind of hard for Asik to take over defensively when he's a 7 footer running after point guards on fast breaks after Harden either bricks it or turns it over?

No. That's just a sorry ass excuse. The Rockets are not good at defense simply because they're playing to their strength and also because they don't have enough defensive assets/system in place. Parsons and Lin are awful, Beverley's undersized and was still at development stage.

That's actually where Asik's value comes into play. Iso defense is meaningless in today's league. One on one defense is just stupid and non-existent anyway, why do that, when there's zone defense allowed. Asik's a self-sufficient help defender that would rotate over to challenge shots near the rim. That's what all primary defensive bigs do in today's league aka Noah, Hibbert, Robin Lopez, anyone for that matter. Ofc the Rockets stuck to his strength when it came to defense. He shined at what he did, kinda like Reggie Evans with his rebounding.

As for Kobe's defense, anything he did was better than Harden's complete lack of it
http://i.imgur.com/XLqwcnD.gif
http://i.imgur.com/L9QN8oq.gif
http://i.imgur.com/QKtHedg.gif
http://i.imgur.com/VUgeHXs.gif
http://i.imgur.com/omAjonq.gif
http://i.imgur.com/1lxzauO.gif
http://i.imgur.com/Jh4NGLi.gif
http://i.imgur.com/imbOcmI.gif
http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/ph ... 453239.gif
I mean when you let Jodie Meeks blow by you, there's a problem.

I've seen those GIFs plenty times previously and I actually find them stupid. For some reason, Harden's become a 'love to hate' guy in past couple years and these kind of stupid GIFs are constantly presented as evidence in nearly all Harden discussions when any player in the league had their shares of lackluster moments in defense. Heck, I watch Celtics game often and Avery Bradley gets his facial plays on D at least couple times a game. Kobe didn't play no D last season (he's stopped playing D since long ago), it's factual. But is it really fair to blame Kobe or Harden for being sleepers on D?

At the end of the day, why would anyone give a fuck as long as they aren't defensive loopholes like Bargnani is (his blk numbers are largely a consequence of the opponent singling him out to attack defensively). Quoting benji's previous post on defense...

You should take into account who exactly was playing with Kobe last season? Did I forget to mention he had a huge baggage by the name of Dwight Howard who demands the ball in the post and pounds it for 20 seconds before passing it out so Kobe and the others have to shoot a bad shot off before the shot clock expires? I'm shocked Kobe even got 46% shooting with that.

Somethings never change. It's always like this. It was Shaq's fault back in the days, Bynum next, now Dwight's fault for holding Kobe back. (Vice versa, everything good happens is always Kobe's deeds, lol) Story that Kobists/media loved to sell and buy into. Yet that 'baggage' has gone to the Rockets and they are doing just fine. Not to mention Kobe having a rejuvenated season alongside that 'baggage'. This baseless accusation is getting way too silly.

[Valor]

The Rockets are middle-of-the-pack defensively because of this fast pace

7th?

They were 16th last season

and all those turnovers they get from forcing the action.

Dead last?

Yes, dead last as in the most turnovers, by far. (1348 to second last Phoenix Suns at 1278). Also their turnovers are live ball turnovers that result in fast breaks.

The Rockets love to attack because their so-called best player is Harden and all McHale does is give him the ball so he can jack up more shots.

Sounds more like Kobe. How many times has Pau Gasol emphasized on needs of ball movement(he even said *away from Kobe iirc) both implicitly and explicitly? How many times from teammates of his? How about Phil Jackson who even wrote a book how it's impossible to coach Kobe?

I believe Gasol was referring to Howard, when he was stuck at the 3 point line last season because the ball gets stuck in Howard's hands. Phil Jackson was talking about the young immature Kobe, not the one who led his team to three straight finals appearances.

Harden's a legitimate playmaker proven from OKC days. You don't have anyone that can replace his production at his usage in this league at his position. It's not McHale that's doing wrong for playing him to his strength.

He's a glorified sixth man, a poor man's Ginobili. McHale is killing this team by giving him all the greenlight on offense and holding him to zero accountability.

No. That's just a sorry ass excuse. The Rockets are not good at defense simply because they're playing to their strength and also because they don't have enough defensive assets/system in place. Parsons and Lin are awful, Beverley's undersized and was still at development stage.

That's actually where Asik's value comes into play. Iso defense is meaningless in today's league. One on one defense is just stupid and non-existent anyway, why do that, when there's zone defense allowed. Asik's a self-sufficient help defender that would rotate over to challenge shots near the rim. That's what all primary defensive bigs do in today's league aka Noah, Hibbert, Robin Lopez, anyone for that matter. Ofc the Rockets stuck to his strength when it came to defense. He shined at what he did, kinda like Reggie Evans with his rebounding.

Parsons and Lin are better than Harden, they actually play defense and pressure the ball. Beverley gambles too much while Lin plays conservatively.
One on one defense is not enough, I agree, but you actually do have to play some? Otherwise that's just making it too easy for your entire defense to break down with the guards just driving/cutting to the basket at will. Harden's as bad as Bargnani on defense. They don't even know wtf is going on 99% of the time, and you are doing Asik a tremendous disservice comparing him to Reggie Evans. Asik can do a lot more than just rebound. Remember a while ago when everybody's praising Roy Hibbert for defending the rim going straight up without fouling? Asik's been doing that since day 1 in the NBA.

I've seen those GIFs plenty times previously and I actually find them stupid. For some reason, Harden's become a 'love to hate' guy in past couple years and these kind of stupid GIFs are constantly presented as evidence in nearly all Harden discussions when any player in the league had their shares of lackluster moments in defense. Heck, I watch Celtics game often and Avery Bradley gets his facial plays on D at least couple times a game. Kobe didn't play no D last season (he's stopped playing D since long ago), it's factual. But is it really fair to blame Kobe or Harden for being sleepers on D?

At the end of the day, why would anyone give a fuck as long as they aren't defensive loopholes like Bargnani is (his blk numbers are largely a consequence of the opponent singling him out to attack defensively). Quoting benji's previous post on defense...

Sure, they can be a bit excessive, but it's the truth that he doesn't defend, at all. My housemates are asian dudes and huge Jeremy Lin fans so we watch quite a bit of Rockets games. I can assure you that Harden has no D whatsoever; and thus we do give a fuck cause he is a defensive loophole like Bargnani.

Hey, at least Bargnani can shut down Dwight Howard, for whatever that's worth.

Somethings never change. It's always like this. It was Shaq's fault back in the days, Bynum next, now Dwight's fault for holding Kobe back. (Vice versa, everything good happens is always Kobe's deeds, lol) Story that Kobists/media loved to sell and buy into. Yet that 'baggage' has gone to the Rockets and they are doing just fine. Not to mention Kobe having a rejuvenated season alongside that 'baggage'. This baseless accusation is getting way too silly.

Who ever said Shaq had faults aside from missing free throws? Bynum was solid before his ego was too big for the team. Dwight really was the only one being the problem on the Lakers. Have you even watched a full game and not just highlights? The Lakers were complete garbage last season with Dwight Howard on the floor. It's not baseless, it's a fact. If Dwight would just suck it up and admit he's just a glorified rebounder and shot blocker they'd be great, but his insistence of getting the ball in the low post when he has zero offensive moves, terrible footwork and horrible court awareness with no passing ability is just a recipe for disaster.

[NovU]

Valor, you are in denial. No reasoning of yours makes any sense but most of it is made up bullshit narrative to suit your purpose. When Kobe sucks, it's his fault not everyone else around him. When Harden sucks, it's also his fault but when he doesn't, it's also to his credit not Asik.

Reminds me of infamous koberulz (though he was open to reasons and eventually came around).

[Valor]

Valor, you are in denial. No reasoning of yours makes any sense but most of it is made up bullshit narrative to suit your purpose. When Kobe sucks, it's his fault not everyone else around him. When Harden sucks, it's also his fault but when he doesn't, it's also to his credit not Asik.

Reminds me of infamous koberulz (though he was open to reasons and eventually came around).

So you are just choosing to ignore any facts stated and label me as a hater to justify your argument that Kobe is worse than Harden? Remember I am a Bulls fan? I got no allegiance to the Lakers dude, just calling it as I see it.

Asik was the more valuable player last season to the Rockets. It's a fact. Harden is not efficient and is vastly overrated, it's a fact. Kobe Bryant had one of his most efficient seasons last season at 34 and in his 17th season. He's a 5 time champion and still the best SG in the league. That's a fact.

Deal with it.

[NovU]

Only thing I'm ignoring are your fake narrative which you amazingly think are facts. LoL

- OH ASKIK'S BETTER PLAYER THAN HARDEN!
- OH KOBE SUCKED BCUZ OF HOWARD!
yet the Rockets are winning with Howard more.

Fucking stupid garbage argument if you ask me, no facts no nothing, just a loudmouth. Deal with it? Gimme a break.

[Valor]

Only thing I'm ignoring are your fake narrative which you amazingly think are facts. LoL

- OH ASKIK'S BETTER PLAYER THAN HARDEN!
- OH KOBE SUCKED BCUZ OF HOWARD!
yet the Rockets are winning with Howard more.

Fucking stupid garbage argument if you ask me, no facts no nothing, just a loudmouth. Deal with it? Gimme a break.

More valuable doesn't equate to better player, otherwise MJ would've swept the MVPs every single season since 91, LeBron would've swept every MVP since 09 and Kobe would've won more than 1. There's also no need to do all those personal insults. Seriously? Grow up already. It's not only "stats" and highlights that count, but obviously you don't understand that.

Oh and btw? The "Kobe has no D" argument you've stated as a means to insult him?

Points given up per possession in various defenses played. Kobe vs Wade. Pretty even, overall they are the same with Wade being a better off-ball defender and Kobe being a better on-ball lockdown defender.

Offensively Kobe and Wade are pretty even in terms of efficiency, and Kobe averaged more than 6 points more than Wade, along with more assists.


Harden vs Kobe.
Just....rofl
"Rockets allowed an extra 4.2 points per 100 possessions when he was on the court"
Harden's so bad defensively it's not even funny. Kobe scored more, grabbed more rebounds, dished out more assists, connected a higher percentage of his shots, played far better defense, and turned the ball over less with a far less talented group at his disposal last season. He plays far smarter basketball and is more fundamentally sound.

But I guess you will dispute all these as a "fucking stupid garbage argument" just because you don't like Kobe.

[Stress Fracture]

Wow, callin Harden as vastly overrated is just lame. I wonder how it became a fact.

[NovU]

Kobe would've won more than 1.

LoL

There's also no need to do all those personal insults. Seriously? Grow up already. It's not only "stats" and highlights that count, but obviously you don't understand that.

I perfectly do. It's because you lost all credibility with your endless yet creative bullcraps. Howard's postplay didn't kill the Lakers. He just didn't get the enough usage to do it enough under Kobe-heavy system. It's impossible, both mathematically and physically. That's one bullcrap too much already. Secondly Gasol wasn't referring to Howard when he talked about ball movement numerously, it was on Kobe, the whole world knows about it and there was a on going debate if ball heavy Kobe was healthy for the team or not. You would know if you paid any attention (for last couple decades). That's two bullcraps right there. I just can't count enough if I was to do this for entire bullcraps you spew out here.

Oh and btw? The "Kobe has no D" argument you've stated as a means to insult him?

You missed the point, and quit feeding me with bleacherreport Kobe bull craps. No, I am not insulting him, you're the one spewing feces all over the place with Kobe's balls in mouth.

Kobe and Harden's difference in defense is minimal and extremely subjective even if you tried to quantify (which isn't possible btw) in numbers. I told you, it's meaningless unless we are talking Avery Bradley who's a significant superior to rest, who's constantly put up against opponent's primary playmaker each and every night. Kobe guards offensively handicapped players, it's been like that for ages unless we're talking couple plays here and there.

Also see how it can be countered. Harden does far better in steals, blocks, and charges than Kobe. Wade's been the best in these category with a slight lead on Harden. [url=http://www.hoopdata.com/defrebstats.aspx?team=%&type=pg&posi=SG&yr=2013&gp=0&mins=30]Kobe is a distant third. Wade's score is 2.66, Harden at 2.49, Kobe at 1.73[/url]. DRtg also has Wade in lead at 103.2, Harden at 106.3, Kobe at 107.9. Effort is there for Harden, (meanwhile Kobe slept on D more, having players like MWP helps).

And you seem to have missed a point entirely from all the discussion we've had so far, I will quote hipster benji one more time and say it goes to show that innate offensive ability is vastly more important than defensive ability as with a proper system you can get most any NBA players to play competent defense. But you can't turn Chuck Hayes into Dirk Nowitzki. It's true and there's not a measurement which accurately quantify individual defense in numbers anyway.

http://www.82games.com/1213/1213HOU2.HTM
Now, here's the real issue. You're entirely ignoring how the Rockets last season was structured to win 45 games. It was with Harden's offensive ability and capable defense in place backed up by Asik. Harden was the heart and backbone of the team and that's no matter how you fucking look at it. You call it inefficient, but guards that shoot over .600TS% and mass produce are extremely rare. Try naming a few. They just had every reasons to capitalize on that. Everyone else are pieces that play to their roles, making them somewhat expandable within established system offered by Harden.

We've talked about bits of every details in the past in our forum about Kobe myth. Revisting these entire topic now is meaningless and stupid. Vast majority of your arguments at this point are silly and stupid, and are has-beens. It's just a tiresome discussion all over again. Not surprising though, we do get Kobist popping up out of nowhere every now and then.

[Jackal]

He just didn't get the enough usage to do it enough under Kobe-heavy system. It's impossible, both mathematically and physically.

Don't make things up. The guy got the ball; fumbled it away or threw up some ugly ass brick.

[NovU]

I'm not the one that's making bullcraps up.

His usage was the lowest since his sopho season. His turnover rate was slightly below his career avg. What really killed his offense was FT% and slight decrease in shooting % but not significant enough to call it the entire Lakers/Kobe system killer (note how his usage% dropped significantly anyway). In fact, the Rockets are winning just fine at similar rate.

So it's still Dwight's fault for bringing Kobe down? How that logic works is beyond stupid. Just say you hate him for being a prima donna, it makes more sense.

EDIT:

Harden's so bad defensively it's not even funny. Kobe scored more, grabbed more rebounds, dished out more assists, connected a higher percentage of his shots, played far better defense, and turned the ball over less with a far less talented group at his disposal last season. He plays far smarter basketball and is more fundamentally sound.

But I guess you will dispute all these as a "fucking stupid garbage argument" just because you don't like Kobe.

Just for the fun sake, let's look at how this guy's garbage logic works. Kobe took 258 more shot attempts and scored only 110 more points than Harden while playing 28 more minutes. Hooray, Kobe's the best! ...... I told you this is some phony garbage stuff. He still calls Harden a chucker and Kobe a smart player. Evidently Kobe was 3rd in usage% in the league only behind Westbrook and Carmelo. Wade and Harden were 7 and 8th respectively. Isn't it a common sense already that you are likely to produce more when you have ball in your hands more?

now imagine how many more points Harden could have created if he took 258 more shots while getting to the line at the rate he usually does. *shudders*

Also fundamentally sound my ass? Pounding the ball 20 times per each possession while nobody else gets to touch the ball is fundamentally a sound basketball play? He had nice ball handlers all along too. Look at the Lakers this season w/o Kobe ballhogging to death. Yet Harden's the only stupid ass player.

Garbage arguments confirmed.

[Valor]

He just didn't get the enough usage to do it enough under Kobe-heavy system. It's impossible, both mathematically and physically.

Don't make things up. The guy got the ball; fumbled it away or threw up some ugly ass brick.

Fact, everybody without lying eyes can see it if they watch the games. Dude airballs hookshots from 5 feet under the basket.

I'm not the one that's making bullcraps up.

Obviously you are by choosing to ignore all the facts mentioned, including the stats that you love so much.

Just for the fun sake, let's look at how this guy's garbage logic works. Kobe took 258 more shot attempts and scored only 110 more points than Harden while playing 28 more minutes. Hooray, Kobe's the best! ...... I told you this is some phony garbage stuff. He still calls Harden a chucker and Kobe a smart player. Evidently Kobe was 3rd in usage% in the league only behind Westbrook and Carmelo. Wade and Harden were 7 and 8th respectively. Isn't it a common sense already that you are likely to produce more when you have ball in your hands more?

Oh wow Kobe's 3rd in usage, he must be a bad player. Oh wait, who else was on that Lakers team? Steve Nash who wasn't even on the floor most of the time due to injuries? Pau Gasol at the three point line? Metta World Peace the greatest offensive option ever lived? Maybe there's a reason why he was 3rd in usage? Somebody has to finish off possessions don't you think?

Meanwhile Harden had all those other weapons and he still has horrible shot selection after pounding the ball for 20 odd seconds. Oh and lets not forget he cries and moans and shits on his teammates when he doesn't get the ball, ignoring set plays in the process. So yes, that's not playing smart basketball and would classify as a "chucker".

now imagine how many more points Harden could have created if he took 258 more shots while getting to the line at the rate he usually does. *shudders*

You do realize shot attempts don't count when you get fouled right? Maybe the reason Harden doesn't have as many shot attempts as Kobe is because he flails his arms, twists his body and flops his way to the line everytime he's near a defender.

Also fundamentally sound my ass? Pounding the ball 20 times per each possession while nobody else gets to touch the ball is fundamentally a sound basketball play?

You are making my point, that's exactly how Harden plays.

Kobe and Harden's difference in defense is minimal and extremely subjective even if you tried to quantify (which isn't possible btw) in numbers. I told you, it's meaningless unless we are talking Avery Bradley who's a significant superior to rest, who's constantly put up against opponent's primary playmaker each and every night. Kobe guards offensively handicapped players, it's been like that for ages unless we're talking couple plays here and there.

Also see how it can be countered. Harden does far better in steals, blocks, and charges than Kobe. Wade's been the best in these category with a slight lead on Harden.

So I'm the one with the "bullcrap" when you choose to ignore the truest form of statistics breaking down defensive efficiency and ability? Good job.

rofl at using blocks and steals and (good lord) charges as the lone indicators of "defense". So apparently if you get some steals and flops to the ground for charge calls you are a great defensive player even when you give up nearly a full point per defensive possession overall, including way over a point per in spot ups and off screens, as a GUARD. Did I mention those were his primary responsibilities? You yourself pointed out that one on one defense isn't the most important skill in the NBA, and here you are denying the fact that Harden is beyond shit at defense.

Now, here's the real issue. You're entirely ignoring how the Rockets last season was structured to win 45 games. It was with Harden's offensive ability and capable defense in place backed up by Asik. Harden was the heart and backbone of the team and that's no matter how you fucking look at it. You call it inefficient, but guards that shoot over .600TS% and mass produce are extremely rare. Try naming a few. They just had every reasons to capitalize on that. Everyone else are pieces that play to their roles, making them somewhat expandable within established system offered by Harden.

The Rockets would've won 45 games with Kevin Martin instead of Harden. Ball movement, man movement and defense will be better. Guess who also shoots over 60% TS and mass produces? Yep, Kevin Martin (.608), and since you love this stat so much to praise Harden to the heavens, he's not even the best Rocket guard in that, this season Jeremy Lin is at .641

As I said, Harden's a glorified sixth man that is a volume shooter who is capable of scoring in bunches, he has no business running a team as the primary ball handler and first option.

Once again, nice mouth, you must be incapable of getting a point across without using excessive profanity.

these entire topic now is meaningless and stupid. Vast majority of your arguments at this point are silly and stupid, and are has-beens. It's just a tiresome discussion all over again. Not surprising though, we do get Kobist popping up out of nowhere every now and then.

Labeling, insulting, and belittling someone when you can't counter cold hard facts. I pity you.

[NovU]

Oh wow Kobe's 3rd in usage, he must be a bad player. Oh wait, who else was on that Lakers team? Steve Nash who wasn't even on the floor most of the time due to injuries? Pau Gasol at the three point line? Metta World Peace the greatest offensive option ever lived? Maybe there's a reason why he was 3rd in usage? Somebody has to finish off possessions don't you think?

There's a reason why teammates and coaches throughout 2 decades cried out loud for ball movement with Kobe. Last season was no exception.

Meanwhile Harden had all those other weapons and he still has horrible shot selection after pounding the ball for 20 odd seconds. Oh and lets not forget he cries and moans and shits on his teammates when he doesn't get the ball, ignoring set plays in the process. So yes, that's not playing smart basketball and would classify as a "chucker".

See? How you are blowing a stupid story out of proportion about Harden crying and moaning when it was more clear that it was Kobe's teammates/coache that were doing them for Kobe's ball thuggery? Bottomline is if you're going to call Harden a chucker, you have even better reasons to call Kobe one. That's a fact so shut the fuck up already about chucking. It goes both way if you wanna sway discussion into that direction.

You do realize shot attempts don't count when you get fouled right? Maybe the reason Harden doesn't have as many shot attempts as Kobe is because he flails his arms, twists his body and flops his way to the line everytime he's near a defender.

See how you are entirely turning focus to Harden's ability to flop when it's actually his strength and something to give credit for? Kobe undeservedly got to the foul line because the Lakers were in danger of elimination from playoffs spot but you don't see me crying about it. Besides Harden throughout his career got to the line at will. That's to his strength so shut the fuck up again about your stupid opinion.

At the end of the day it's only perfectly reasonable to imagine Harden at Kobe's usage %, you ass wipe.

rofl at using blocks and steals and (good lord) charges as the lone indicators of "defense". So apparently if you get some steals and flops to the ground for charge calls you are a great defensive player even when you give up nearly a full point per defensive possession overall, including way over a point per in spot ups and off screens, as a GUARD. Did I mention those were his primary responsibilities? You yourself pointed out that one on one defense isn't the most important skill in the NBA, and here you are denying the fact that Harden is beyond shit at defense.

I don't deny that he doesn't play good defense much like Kobe. But there's no significant evidence really that says Kobe's a significantly the better of two really. There are just too many variables. Unless you think you ass wipe actually outsmart brightest minds of basketball world. Do read this article (credit to grin), it's awesome.
http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sp ... ingle.html

The Rockets would've won 45 games with Kevin Martin instead of Harden. Ball movement, man movement and defense will be better. Guess who also shoots over 60% TS and mass produces? Yep, Kevin Martin (.608), and since you love this stat so much to praise Harden to the heavens, he's not even the best Rocket guard in that, this season Jeremy Lin is at .641

Stop being an ass wipe that you are if wanna be taken seriously. Do you really believe Jeremy's .641 is sustainable? Some of us loved Kevin Martin for his shooting ability. Add playmaking skills to his game, you're probably looking at quite a good player. I actually think he always has been. He is purely a shooter with charity line ability. He's good at those two things only.

As I said, Harden's a glorified sixth man that is a volume shooter who is capable of scoring in bunches, he has no business running a team as the primary ball handler and first option.

Once again, nice mouth, you must be incapable of getting a point across without using excessive profanity.

I told you. If you stopped coming at me with all those fictitious bullcraps none of this would have happened. Instead you just had to make up another bullshit yet creative stuff like 'glorified sixth man' thingie which only exists in your fantasy world. But I admit that's some fantastic stuff like something Skip Bayless and Stephen A Smith would love to sell to their idiots fans.

Labeling, insulting, and belittling someone when you can't counter cold hard facts. I pity you.

Don't flatter yourself now. I saw no hard facts from you, none whatsoever. Speaking of which that title actually belongs to benji around here, lol. You are a guy that would pay 40year old Kobe 50 mil bucks and thinks Harden a joke. You have a long way to go my friend.

[Valor]

Not even going to quote you, "at the end of the day" all your "arguments" revolve around using a ton of profanity and insults in an attempt to discredit the other person. I'm done here, you are obviously too biased and ill mannered to continue having a discussion with. But hey, credits to you, you actually come to admit that Harden's worse than Kobe defensively after disputing all the facts previously stated with the stuff about "Kobe doesn't defend, man to man defense isn't worth anything"


Here's a suggestion, actually learn the game of basketball and watch an actual game instead of poring over statistics and highlights, you might learn something. Saying Harden and Wade are better than Kobe is like saying Amare's better than Tim Duncan and Blake Griffin is better than Kevin Love. Totally ridiculous.

Keep hating mate