Greatest Of The Three Point Era: Shooting Guard

[Andrew]

He's still up there. I wouldn't rate him above Jordan or some of the other all-time greats, but he's at least top 20.

[Mavs4Life]

He's still up there. I wouldn't rate him above Jordan or some of the other all-time greats, but he's at least top 20.

Yeah, exactly.

[Andrew]

Since the lockout hasn't given us much else to talk about at the moment, should we continue these with the power forwards and centres?

[shadowgrin]

With the lockout it means more WNBA for all of us especially Lamrock! We got next!
If you don't like watching them play we could at least partake in a favorite activity of every WNBA fan, guessing who among the players are lesbians! Expect great!

[benji]

I'll post the next one in a bit, I also have created some more to extend the concept beyond the standard positions.

[The X]

We're still waiting for your SG list first though benji

[Andrew]

I'll post the next one in a bit, I also have created some more to extend the concept beyond the standard positions.

Good stuff.

[benji]

1. Kobe Bryant / 6-6 / 200

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	B/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
2003-09	26.6	5.3	4.8	1.55	0.50	.563	113	25.3	88.5	66.4	22.2	.201

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIrCFrFpHvw

2. Dwyane Wade / 6-4 / 212

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	B/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
2005-11	25.3	5.0	6.3	1.73	0.98	.569	112	26.5	74.5	49.1	25.4	.201

Wait, Wade has the better numbers.

You're somewhat right. Kobe's the better offensive player, Wade the better defensive one. But they're basically neck and neck during their periods overall. Where Kobe gets his slight edge is that offense matters more for a lousy team. Kobe set the record for usage, but there was a reason he did so.

Wade has a few more years to surpass Kobe, despite LeBron, nothing to fret about. Kobe lived with Shaq and Gasol.

3. Clyde Drexler / 6-7 / 210

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	B/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
1987-93	23.3	6.6	6.0	2.14	0.74	.554	116	22.4	78.8	51.5	27.3	.197

By a hair. Like everyone from here on down he was never the clear best player on his team but had plenty of great years.

It was his dunking and so on that made people think he was a rival to Jordan, but like everyone else, he truly wasn't. Thus his legacy was inflated out of this need for a rival. Drexler was great, but it's the rest of guards he needs to be compared to. Not Jordan.

4. Manu Ginobili / 6-6 / 210

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	B/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
2005-11	20.8	5.2	5.2	1.86	0.46	.598	116	22.9	64.5	39.1	25.4	.227

Really? Oh yeah.

You think the Spurs win titles without him?

We can put him higher if you want. He's ideal for the Spurs, delivers 20 points per 36 with boards, assists and defense. He's the last guy here who provides elite offense and defense. Actually, well...

5. Sidney Moncrief / 6-3 / 180

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	B/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
1980-86	19.5	5.9	4.3	1.48	0.36	.593	120	19.8	76.9	52.3	24.6	.205

Okay, so here we have the last guy who provides above average offense with elite defense. Another ignored 1980s Bucks player by many people. That team is the Rodney Dangerfield of great teams.

Moncrief at least received recognition at the time, winning the first two defensive player of the year awards. And after Jordan might be the best perimeter player to ever win the award. There's a case to be made he's the best backcourt defender of the winners. It's too bad his knees and neck fell apart so early, he didn't really get to playout his true prime making his placement even more respectable.

6. Reggie Miller / 6-7 / 185

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	B/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
1990-96	21.6	3.2	3.5	1.32	0.24	.632	124	19.9	80.1	66.9	13.2	.191

Alright, so he wasn't aware that you could actually defend the other players until Larry Bird took over two years after his prime. But that ugly shot is one of the best of all time. And to be fair, Reggie didn't do what he couldn't.

So what if that was mostly anything but put the ball in the basket. But he did that so much better than everyone else it comes close to making up for it.

I said close. The Pacers never could have won with Reggie as the clear best player on their team, and they didn't. The depth that the Bender trade sapped that cost them the 2000 title was the only way the team was ever good enough to topple everyone else. But if you take prime Reggie and put him on the post-trade 2004 Pistons instead of Rip that team becomes basically unstoppable and is one of the greatest teams ever assembled.

Top six all time on TS%, second for ORtg. Four first place finishes, three during the prime and a second-place. From 1990-2000 he finished in the top ten for Offensive Win Shares, in seven of those eleven years in the top five.

7. George Gervin / 6-7 / 180

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	B/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
1978-84	29.2	4.9	3.0	1.32	0.91	.572	112	22.7	70.0	55.7	14.3	.171

Speaking of not knowing you could guard other players.

But we put Gervin here for two reasons.

1. Nobody else on this list could score like him.
2. His actual prime gets knocked ever so slightly by two years. That I'm more than willing to waive him in and kick out his last two years. Because he spent time in the ABA and also played in the 1970s so was obviously destroying his career on cocaine.

But but but but, wait, you said that-Shut up.

Gervin would have put up far better ORtgs if he had played in later eras. Take 1978 the Spurs did 104.5, the league did 100.9. Gervin did 111. I see no reason Gervin could not have played in other eras.

8. Vince Carter / 6-6 / 215

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	B/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
2000-06	23.4	5.1	3.9	1.28	0.83	.533	108	22.3	60.5	40.7	19.8	.157

Here's where we start actually debating the players.

But the fact is that no matter how much we view Carter as rolling on the floor with the latest "injury" for a couple years he was perhaps the best perimeter player in the game.

I know, the Kobe fans are already prepping their papers. You know if we actually had people who responded to posts on here.

But Vince Carter did not simply destroy the dunk contest in 2000, he was, for maybe three years one of the best perimeter players in the league. Maybe the best. In 1999-00 and 2000-01 he was likely the best perimeter player in the game, and until he was injured in 2001-02 probably the same.

Who knows why he backed off and refused to use his talent after that.

Actually, the answer is clear.

Blame Canada.

9. Ray Allen / 6-5 / 205

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	B/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
2000-06	21.7	4.4	3.9	1.24	0.19	.579	116	21.6	68.9	61.8	7.1	.167

There's Reggie, and then there's Ray Allen. And between the two we have a challenge for the best shooter of all time.

That's if we don't include the players like Dale Ellis, Kyle Korver, etc.

If we're consdering the guys who used lots of possessions it is basically between Miller and Allen. And we have to give it to Miller. Allen is the more complete package, but he never as the first option displayed what Miller did. That's their difference. Either one is basically automatic.

Like Moncrief, Allen was another star stuck on a team where he had to be the best player when he should have maybe been second best.

10. Eddie Jones / 6-6 / 190

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	B/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
1997-03	17.0	4.2	3.3	1.93	0.76	.558	111	18.3	60.2	35.0	25.2	.162

Alright so he's not a star. But he's good enough offensively and a great player on the defensive end.

It's really a push between those below and him here. Jones is one of the best defenders to play the position but found himself stuck on team after team where he had to try and score 20ppg without much of any help.

If anything Jones explains the entire position better than anything.

The Next Five
Allen Iverson won an a MVP award somehow but mostly made it there because he shot a lot. Jeff Hornacek was a minor star but eventually settled into a consistent valuable sidekick. Walter Davis scored. Really. He did this. He scored. Hersey Hawkins was also a great scorer before he landed in Seattle and reinvented himself as the bomber/defender that Seattle needed to run to the Finals. Jason Terry has never done anything anyone ever has noticed, is he even still in the league?

Here's where I usually mention other players at the position who deserve mention.

So I will.

Brent Barry.

That's it.

Good night and good luck.

[The X]

Your list was similar to mine although I completely forgot about Manu I don't how I forgot him since I really like his game. He would've been in my top 10 which means Iverson would've been bumped out

[deihatein]

Jason Terry has never done anything anyone ever has noticed, is he even still in the league?

phpBB [video]

[Mavs4Life]

I noticed that.

My reaction:

Terry fires

Me: Terry WTF!

(He hits it)

Me: YES!

Still dosen't make on of the best though. The only person I don't agree with is Edddie Jones. A.I. should be on the list, he was like LeBron with the Cavs, carrrying a pretty bad team all the way to the Finals, winning MVP. Sure he shot a lot, but he was better than Eddie Jones. I completely forgot about Manu aswell.

[Martti.]

Did I miss something? Why MJ isn't on the list? Yeah, he's #1, but I'd like to know by how much in comparison to Kobe and D-Wade..

[benji]

Did I miss something? Why MJ isn't on the list? Yeah, he's #1, but I'd like to know by how much in comparison to Kobe and D-Wade..

michael "Foolish" jordon / 6-6 / 216

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	B/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
1987-93	30.5	5.9	5.5	2.56	0.96	.590	122	30.4	132.1	95.4	36.8	.285
1991-98	28.5	5.9	4.6	2.09	0.68	.569	120	28.3	112.1	78.1	34.0	.280

Kobe "GOAT/MVP" Bryant / 6-6 / 200

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	B/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
2003-09	26.6	5.3	4.8	1.55	0.50	.563	113	25.3	88.5	66.4	22.2	.201

[Mavs4Life]

Still Kobe's not the G.O.A.T.

[NovU]

Feel free to NOT list Michael Jordan at all. You should remember to start your numbering at 2 however, as if Jordan is not listed first, you will be banned.

Surprised to see Eddie Jones in the list. And VC? Canada? Pfft. We made him.

[yosifun]

And VC? Canada? Pfft. We made him.

You meant VC made Canada. Nobody out of Canada would have watched Raptors' games if it wasn't for Vince, greatest player to put on a Raptors jersey (except for The Dream but he was near retirement).

[NovU]

You meant like how Omri Caspi put Israel on the world map?

[shadowgrin]

Nobody in their right mind would want to play in Canada. How many 'good' players have the Raptors lost - VC, T-Mac, Camby, Stoudamire, Bosh, heck let's even consider Charlie V.
Bargnani? The only reason he's still in Canada is because Colangelo doesn't want to trade him (yet) because that would be admitting that he made a mistake in drafting Bargs.

No one really wants to play in Canada that Vancouver was forced to move to Memphis.

[Murat]

I want to play.

[NovU]

No brainer. Not only Canadian cities are small markets but also hockey is the popular sport that overshadows basketball. And Tonronto pretty much suffers from a shared reason among small market teams that fail to keep stars in their team.

On top of that, the team management has been pure fugly. The ownership is more of businessman. Owns all the sports teams in Toronto and not single one of them is respectable. Not Jays, not Leaf, not raptors and not argos. But somehow these franchises are profitable and fans support team.

VC had pretty good years as a Raptor. But he was on the downhill ever since he ditched the team. Ain't myself a Raptors fan in anyway but was somewhat cool to see a whiny bitch getting what he deserved. So much for Air Canada.

[Axel The Great]

Late to the party, but better late than never I guess.

1. Michael Jordan
Prime: 1986-87 to 1992-93
Jordan's number one for reasons that would be a waste of time repeating. The gap between him and number two is just too big to put him any lower than this. Plus, I don't want to get banned.

2. Kobe Bryant
Prime: 2000-01 to 2006-07
I dislike Kobe, and he has many to thank for his five championships, but here he is at number two because of his individual numbers. It's hard to average 30+ points, along with five rebounds and five assists in more than one season. One of the best scorers of all time, I think his all-around game gets overlooked at times.

3. Dwyane Wade
Prime: 2004-05 to 2010-11
In a few years, it is safe to say that Wade will most likely overtake Kobe on this list, even if he does play alongside LeBron James. Despite playing on a star-studded team, his numbers have remained pretty similar as before Bosh and James arrived after one season has been played. He has proven to be capable of leading a team, as he was the one who single-handedly led the 2009-10 Heat to the playoffs. Wade is arguably just as good at scoring as Kobe, just as good a rebounder and passer, and definitely a better defender.

4. Clyde Drexler
Prime: 1986-87 to 1992-93 and 1994-95
To some this is a homer pick, me being a Rockets fan and all. But putting The Glide this high isn't complete blasphemy. He's definitely one of the best rebounders at his position, and added five to six assists for most of his career. Excellent scorer as well, leading Portland to two NBA Finals where they just couldn't not get past Jordan. I put him below Kobe and Wade because he couldn't win a championship being "The Man" on his team, and had to hop on board with Hakeem to get his championship. Not taking anything away from him though, as he was a major factor in the 95 championship.

5. Reggie Miller
Prime: 1989-90 to 1995-96
Miller is right up there with Jordan in terms of best playoff performers in history. He has an assortment of playoffs highlights, most of which consist of clutch shots. And of course, we all know he could score with the best of them, and it's tough to decide whether or not he was a better shooter than Ray Allen. I'd rank him higher up than Allen as Miller led the Pacers to success while being the first option, while Allen never did that in Seattle.

6. Manu Ginobili
Prime: 2004-05 to 2010-11
Yes. The best Argentinian to ever pick up a basketball. While he hasn't always been the first option in San Antonio, he was definitely a key factor in the success of the Spurs this past decade. With an all-around game, being able to score, and pick up rebounds and assists, Ginobili makes my top 10 SG's list.

7. Ray Allen
Prime: 2000-01 to 2006-07 (okay, and maybe throw in the championship year 2008-09)
Having the record of most three-pointers made in a season and all-time, you have to rank Ray Allen somewhere on a top 10 list. Arguably the best shooter of all-time, he can consistently shoot 40% from beyond the arc and 90% from the line. A championship is what separates him from Reggie Miller, but it really wouldn't hurt to interchange them.

8. George Gervin
Prime: 1977-78 to 1983-84
It's hard to average 30 points, take more than 20 shots a game and shoot over 50% from the field. Yet Gervin did just that, picking up four scoring titles. Not only that, but he was always good for picking up five rebounds and a blocked shot in the seven year period mentioned.

9. Mitch Richmond
Prime: 1988-89 and 1990-91 to 1996-97
Yes, I know this is eight seasons, but how many players can claim they averaged around 20 points, 6 rebounds, and 4 assists their rookie season? Apart from Oscar Robertson, Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Grant Hill, Tyreke Evans, and a few others, hardly anyone can. He scored well, was an excellent defender, and had a better all-around game than his similars of Reggie Miller and Ray Allen. What's stopping me from putting Richmond higher up is he was stuck on bad teams and only made the playoffs in four out of his 14 seasons in the league, therefore, not really a proven player in the playoffs.

10. Vince Carter
Prime: 1999-2000 to 2006-07 (combining the seasons from 01-03)
Carter has better all-around stats than most would expect. In the early days, he performed dunks that should be illegal, and has always been a legitimate three-point threat who just can't be stopped when he has it going. Along with MJ and Drexler, the most athletic player on this list.

Honorable Mentions:
John Starks - 1992-93 to 1998-99
Joe Dumars - 1988-89 to 1994-95
Jeff Hornacek - 1989-90 to 1995-96
Michael Finley - 1997-98 to 2003-04
Sidney Moncrief - 1980-81 to 1986-87

I'd put Kevin Martin (what? You thought I was gonna go the distance without bringing him up? Just wait until we get to the centers!) on the honorable mentions, but he hasn't shown us seven years of his greatness and getting to the foul line eight times a game and shooting over 40% from the three-point line yet. At the very least he'll be an honorable mention later on. Just behold.

[shadowgrin]

3. Dwyane Wade
Prime: 2004-05 to 2010-11
In a few years, it is safe to say that Wade will most likely overtake Kobe on this list, even if he does play alongside LeBron James. Despite playing on a star-studded team, his numbers have remained pretty similar as before Bosh and James arrived after one season has been played. He has proven to be capable of leading a team, as he was the one who single-handedly led the 2009-10 Heat to the playoffs. Wade is arguably just as good at scoring as Kobe, just as good a rebounder and passer, and definitely a better defender.

Doesn't matter. In a few years Kobe will most likely overtake Jordan on everyone's list.

[Axel The Great]

What are you implying?

[shadowgrin]

Wade will get #2, Kobe #1. Jordan, an old relic that will eventually be forgotten like Bill Russell, Wilt, or other ancient players.

[benji]

Jordan never even had a facebook account when he played, couldn't stream his games live on the internet, he beat up on short white guys like Craig Ehlo, Mark Price and John Stockton, it was the dark ages. Kobe meanwhile has gone one-on-one alone and single-handedly toppled Reggie Miller, Dwight Howard, the Hall of Fame Celtics, Shaquille O'Neal, Steve Nash, Tim Duncan and LeBron James/Dwayne Wade/Chris Bosh.

To see proof of how much old players suck just look at Moncrief's ranking on faux-Axel's list. Same place as John Starks.

had a better all-around game than his similars of ... Ray Allen.

Mitch during his prime: 22.2/3.6/3.9/1.23/0.27 with 56% scoring.
Ray Allen during his is: 21.7/4.4/3.9/1.24/0.19 with 58% scoring.