Greatest Of The Three Point Era: Small Forward

[shadowgrin]

Is Kevin Durant not a Small Forward?

The best seven year stint of that player, in other words the "prime" of their career.

[Lamrock]

Damn it Ben, make a list please

[Stress Fracture]

Okay then. Might have missed that part.

[[Q]]

Is Kevin Durant not a Small Forward?

even if he was eligible, i dont thinnk he would even make it. he didnt even cross my mind until now. i guess with bernard king making a lot of lists there is an argument for him to make a few lists

[The X]

Damn it Ben, make a list please

I'd say he's waiting for Andrew

[NovU]

Watching Rodman Jersey being retired today, makes me wonder, how many SFs that are mentioned here are going to get their jersey retired.

[Stress Fracture]

Bird's jersey has been retired. I dunno to T-Mac.

[Andrew]

Alright, here we go.

1. Larry Bird

I know we don't have to mention the seven year period, but since I did it for the point guard list I figured I'd keep doing it. For Bird, I'll take the six seasons from 1982/83 to 1987/88 and the 1989/1990 season. LeBron's been putting up some great numbers in his first seven years in the league but during that stretch Bird had seasons of 20 and 10 to go along with around 7 assists, a season in which he came close to 28-9-8 and some incredible shooting percentages, twice shooting 50% from the field, 40% from downtown and 90% from the free throw line. He dominated the game without tremendous athleticism and has to be one of the smartest players to ever play the game. Pure clutch, too.

2. LeBron James

Since the 2010/2011 season is almost over and he's played over 70 games, I think it's fair enough to count 2005-2011 as LeBron's seven years for now. Give it another few years and that could change, though if this season is any indication it's going to be more of the same. Even if you eliminate this season and take his rookie year with the six seasons that followed it, he makes a good case for the top spot. However, as I mentioned before Larry Legend's stats are themselves impressive and I rate his basketball smarts more than LeBron's freakish athleticism and physique, though the latter is certainly impressive in its own right. I just can't imagine Bird fading in clutch situations as LeBron still does from time to time.

3. Scottie Pippen

I'd love to rank him higher but with the performance of the first two players on the list, it's difficult to do. I can't put him any lower than third though, being one of the best perimeter defenders (if not the best perimeter defender) we've ever seen, a consummate all-around talent and perhaps the ultimate team-oriented superstar player. His best years were 1991-1997, where he was good for around 20 points, 6-8 rebounds and 6-7 assists per game; not too shabby considering there was another guy on the team putting up some big numbers during that era.

4. Julius Erving

Some might argue that the Doctor's aerial exploits might lead him to be overrated, but I think they also mask the fact he was a tremendously talented player. Four might seem a little high, especially given his prime came in the ABA days, but from '79-'85 - the seven year period I'm picking for him - he was still a star in the league, still good for over 20 points per game to go along around 7 rebounds and 4 assists. Probably a bit better a defender than he's given credit for and a big reason the Sixers were a threat in the East in the late 70s/early 80s and the champs in 1983.

5. Dominique Wilkins

Could just flat out score the basketball. Yes, he had a lot of the time and chances are when he got the ball his teammates weren't going to see it again, but he was called upon to score in bunches and score in bunches he did. He was also a pretty good rebounder at the small forward spot and while his defense was nothing on his offensive game, I'd say he was an adequate defender when he needed to be. 1985-1991 would be my pick for his best seven years in the league, which included the scoring title in 1986.

6. Tracy McGrady

If only he could've stayed healthy, I think he'd easily be top five. He's often maligned for never getting out of the first round which isn't entirely fair, though I do think he's had good opportunities to lead his teams further so I think it'll always be questionable as to whether a successful team could've been built around him. Still, I have to place him at least at the sixth spot for his talent and performances such as his 2002/2003 and 2003/2004 seasons. I'll take 2001-2005 along with 2006/2007 and 2007/2008 as his finest seven years in the league; honourable mention goes to his 2005/2006 campaign in which he played in 47 games.

7. Adrian Dantley

Another great scorer who probably doesn't get enough attention. I'm nominating 1980-86 as his best seven seasons, during which he not only averaged over 30 ppg in four consecutive years, he shot over 55% from the field in six of those seven seasons (and a more than respectable 53% in the season he didn't), also finishing just short of a fifth 30 ppg season with 29.8 per game in 1985/86. He also had solid rebounding numbers and a decent amount of assists for a player better known as a scoring machine.

8. Grant Hill

Because he really was that good during his first six seasons in the league (1995-2000) and I'll throw in his comeback year of 2004/2005 for a seven seasons. I'm tempted to put him a little higher but it's difficult; I feel it's a close call between my 6-8 spots. Anyway, Hill's resume lacks significant success in the Playoffs and is marred by so many games lost to an assortment of injuries, but for the first six years he was good for at least 20, 6 and 5 (coming close to 20 and 10 with 7 assists in 1996). You can still see flashes of that player these days (plus a three point shot!) every now and again and as a sidenote, I admire the way he's been able to get healthy and re-invent himself as a solid role player, though that has no bearing on his ranking here.

9. Paul Pierce

The year Paul Pierce was drafted, Michael Olowokandi was picked first overall. Just feel that's something that needs to be mentioned. Anyway, Pierce delivers pretty much everything most of us would expect from a star small forward: he scores, he defends, he rebounds and he gets a healthy amount of assists. His shooting percentages are acceptable for someone who puts up a fair amount of threes and he's certainly not bad at knocking them down from beyond the arc. For all the big shots he's knocked down, his defense on Kobe Bryant in Game 4 of the 2008 NBA Finals is probably the finest moment of his career. Best years were 2001-2006 and the championship season of 2007/2008.

10. Bernard King

This was a tough call and as already mentioned it's not as easy to pin down seven strong years for King as his career was riddled with injuries. Still, he was another explosive scorer in the "classic small forward" mold, mostly padding the stat sheet at one end of the floor but still getting boards and getting in the way of opponents when need be. Best years? Well, they're all over the place, but I'll take the 1978/1979 season, 1981-1985 and 1990/1991.

Honourable mentions go to Carmelo Anthony, Alex English, Kiki Vandeweghe, Mark Aguirre and James Worthy. I also think that in a few years, Kevin Durant will be in the conversation too.

[Axel The Great]

Just a quick list. I'll just be picking out the "prime" years of each player, and make vague (and some obvious) comments about most players.

1. Larry Bird
Seasons - 1981-82 to 1987-88
Someone who was able to dominate the game of basketball with very little athleticism and just pure basketball I.Q. and shooting ability deserves to be number one. Always shot the ball well, and had consistent 25, 5+, and 5+ seasons, including averaging a double-double his first six seasons. Above LeBron on my list because he's had more success (to this point) than him, and did not disappear in clutch situations.

2. LeBron James
Seasons - 2003-04 to 2009-10
Tremendous freak of nature. Lethal combination of strength, speed, and quickness. To be able to lead a team full of scrubs to 60-win seasons is enough for him to be this high up on my list. Despite having to share the limelight in Miami with D-Wade and RuPaul, he's still averaging about 27, 7, and 7.

3. Scottie Pippen
Seasons - 1991-92 to 1997-98
As it's been said before, Pippen was one of the best perimeter defenders in the history of basketball. Even with the best shooting guard in league history alongside him, he still got his numbers. Like the two players above him, Pippen was a consistent 20, 5, and 5 player. Without Scottie, the 90's Bulls would not have been the same, even with MJ. Definitely my favorite SF of all time.

4. Adrian Dantley
Seasons - 1979-80 to 1986-87 (adding another season as he had a couple 20-50 game seasons in between)
His stats completely made me shit bricks. To average 30 points per game and shoot about 55% in that seven year span is incredible. That's enough to put him this high up on the list. And as Andrew said, good rebounder, and got a fair amount of assists for a high volume scorer. I'm sure if he didn't score as much, he'd have been another 25, 5, and 5 player.

5. Dominique Wilkins
Seasons - 1985-86 to 1991-92
Looking at his Usage%, I can see why he put the ball in the basket so much. Given all of the opportunities in the world, but he still delivered. Like Dantley, he still got a fair amount of assists for a scorer of his caliber, but was a much better rebounder, averaging about seven rebounds in this time period. His dunks just about solidify his spot this high up on my list.

6. Julius Erving
Seasons - 1979-80 to 1985-86
If we weren't talking three-point era here, I'd go as far as to put Dr. J above 'Nique on this list, but he still averaged over 20 points per game in this time period, and shot it efficiently from the field. Like Wilkins, the dunks were a big part of what made him famous.

7. Grant Hill
Seasons - 1994-95 to 1999-2000 with the 2004-05 season
If injuries wouldn't have hampered him, he could've arguably been a bit higher on my list. Still can't deny the fact that his first six seasons were excellent. Despite the injuries, it's good to see him being a solid role player in Phoenix these days.

8. Tracy McGrady
Seasons - 2000-01 to 2007-08 (about two incomplete seasons in between)
Another "what if" player. His best years were definitely in Orlando, with the monster 2002-03 season. In his time in Houston, he did more of the same, but having to share the limelight with Yao, his rebounding and scoring numbers dropped a bit. It was in Houston where his career fell apart, thanks to the injuries. The 13 points in 33 seconds is worthy of mention. R.I.P. T-Mac's career.

9. Paul Pierce
Seasons - 2002-03 to 2007-08
Andrew's description of Paul Pierce pretty much describes what he is. He's been loyal to the Boston Celtics team all his career, despite being a Lakers fan as a kid. Very skilled scorer with excellent footwork and mid-range game, and like the greatest Celtic of all time, never backs down in the clutch.

10. James Worthy
Seasons - 1985-86 to 1991-92
Like Scottie Pippen, Worthy still got his numbers despite not being the primary ballhandler. Made an excellent combo with Magic in Los Angeles, and was a key contributor to three championships for the Lakers. Picked him over Bernard King and Alex English on this list because he was less injury-prone and a better defender than both.

Worthy of Mention: Carmelo Anthony, Bernard King, and Alex English.
Soon to be in This Discussion: Kevin Durant

[benji]

I'd say he's waiting for Andrew

Actually, it's Jae since it fires our love-hate relationship to disagree until we fight our way into bed.

I think that it's pretty clear from the lists so far who the core eight guys or so are though.

[benji]

1. LeBron James / 6-8 / 240

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	B/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
2005-11	25.7	6.6	6.4	1.55	0.78	.574	116	28.1	15.7	10.7	5.0	.247

I say it a lot on here, but he's not just great. Larry Bird is great. Larry Bird is amazing. LeBron is unfair. He's like later Magic in Karl Malone's body.

I'll be honest, I was as always skeptical of LeBron coming in. I thought the lack of shot and his body wouldn't make him an instant star. Boy was I wrong. The shot didn't matter. And well, he basically has the best body in NBA history.

Can anyone truly guard LeBron? Ever?

I'd love to live in an alternate history where I can take him and put him in 1962.

Really, no matter how much you hate LeBron, no matter how much you can pick at all his indvidual flaws or the fact he's not developed like he could. Look at this guy. I mean, jesus christ.

HIS PLAYOFF AVERAGES ARE 29.3/8.4/7.3. 27.1 PER. The last two are 37.4 (HOLY FUCK) and 28.6 on 61-62% TS. Are you fucking kidding me?

And he's 26?!? Really!

Like I said. Unfair. (Younger than me. What have I done with my life. )

Let's note he willingly sacrified his personal stats to team up with his friends and make everything unfair for the next five years. And yet he still leads the league in PER and once the Heat figure things out we might as well scrap the whole affair.

If Bird is the Basketball Jesus, that makes LeBron the Basketball God.

2. Larry Bird / 6-9 / 220

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	B/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
1982-88	24.3	9.4	6.0	1.68	0.82	.580	118	25.3	14.5	9.3	5.3	.231

What was once an obvious pick is now number two, but still far above everyone else.

It's somewhat interesting that Bird may fade with the younger cohort in the face of LeBron and Pippen. I mean, except for the Boston fanatics who will never let Bird go under any circumstances.

The fact is Bird is the only SF close to LeBron. We do have to set LeBron aside because he's unfair. (Did I mention that?) But Bird is still parsecs above the rest.

Bird is one of the smartest players to ever play the game. One of the most aware players of all time. One of the best shooters ever. And entirely relentless. Look at the rest of this top ten, every single player was more athletic, but only LeBron (an unfair freak) was better. The Bird passing videos should be required viewing for everyone interested in basketball ever. The guy had a natural sense few others will have, the fact that LeBron is one of the few that has the same sense actually helps Bird.

There were SF's more athletic, SF's more raw talented, but none who participated fairly were as good as Bird. There's a real seperation of quality between LeBron, Bird and the rest. I can visualize it for you in many ways statistically, but you shouldn't have to see it in the numbers.

3. Julius Erving / 6-6 / 200

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	B/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
1978-84	24.3	7.4	4.3	1.96	1.71	.565	111	23.5	11.1	6.5	4.6	.198

No, it wasn't his prime. But Erving still did few things that others have.

Scoring? One of the best. Rebounding? Up there as well. Distributing? Yep, in the upper tier. Add in almost two blocks and two steals a game? Sure.

How do we define what Erving was, in his era, for our younger fans. How about this. Take Tracy McGrady on offense, and add in some Scottie Pippen on defense. Yeah, that sounds right.

And since Erving is our #3, and Bird our #2, we have to mention when they put on one of the greatest shows the game has seen. 1981 Eastern Conference Finals.

4. Scottie Pippen / 6-8 / 210

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	B/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
1991-97	19.1	7.1	5.7	2.15	0.87	.547	112	21.3	11.5	6.0	5.6	.185

Pippen could be considered either underrated or overrated depending on how you approach him. His lore is likely overrated, he was never the second best player behind Jordan, or the "most complete player" or "best all-around player" both tags he got in a similar manner to Kobe during his period with Shaq.

And yes, there may be a case that Pippen should get points off for only dominating when Jordan was gone. Look at his steal % for example. 2.9 overall, 4.0 in the two years Jordan was gone, leading the league in steal% and DRtg in 1995.

But Pippen was more than solid on offense, dominant on defense and maybe the best sidekick possible. Would he be the best player on a championship team? The best we can say is maybe. Can't say that about the three above him.

5. Adrian "God Damn" Dantley / 6-5 / 208

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	B/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
1980-87	26.8	5.5	3.3	0.99	0.12	.630	121	23.4	12.4	10.6	1.8	.201

Okay, so I played more defense in the 1980s, but there's a case to be made that Dantley is greatest scorer in NBA History.

I know, you want the stats. Okay, how about the number of players who scored 24+ points per 36 and had a TS% of 61+% for their entire career?

Oh wait. There's only been one player ever. And that was God Damn.

Did I mention he was 6-5?

Did I mention he scored mostly off of posting up?

Did I mention in his prime he combined getting to the line at 10 times per 36 with 80+% FT%? And hit 53-58% from the field at the same time?

Did I mention he was 6-5?

Did I mentioned he led the NBA in ORtg twice, led it in OWS four times, finished in the top five in TS% six times and for his career is 4th all time? 13th in career OWS? 9th in career Ortg?

Admit it. Did you know about this guy before this post? Did you know about him before I started the completely moronic "God Damn" tag a few years ago?

Can you measure the shame you feel that one of the greatest, most unstoppable scorers of all time completely skipped your view?

Oh, oh, back to his defense? Fuck you, that's what God Damn says. You're scoring 20 on me, lol. I'm dropping 35 on the same number of shots. Deal with it.

Greatest scorer of all time? Naw, that's Wilt. Greatest scorer of the three point era? Yeah, we agree.

Jordan? Better overall offensive player? Most definitely. Better scorer? I can't, sorry. Even at his best Jordan was 30.5 on 59%, which is pretty fucking amazing. But look up there at the numbers, Dantley's at 27 on 63%. You think he couldn't put up three more shots? He did 29.7 at 63% in 1986. And he did 29.2 ON 65% JESUS CHRIST in 1983-84. In 1991 Jordan put up an ungodly 125 ORtg, in 1984 Dantley put up 126 with 50% more turnovers and a third fewer assists simply because of his scoring. Jordan the ultimate offensive player, Dantley the ultimate scorer. Case closed.

Now Mr. Durant has done 26.6 on .600 the last two years at 21-22, so we may need to rediscuss this in the future. Durant takes Dantley's post-game and turns it into outside shooting, then becomes absolutely automatic at the line while still getting there gobs. They're actually pretty comparable in assists and turnovers too. Durant has that whole 6-9 thing going for him. The Thunder should hire Dantley away from Denver to teach Durant his post-game.

6. Shawn Marion / 6-7 / 220

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	B/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
2001-07	17.8	9.5	1.9	1.82	1.26	.548	112	21.2	11.8	6.5	5.3	.180

After Pippen, and maybe more so than Pippen, Marion is the best defensive player in this list. He even showed at the end of this era that he could defend and play the PF position.

Marion gets a lot of hype being next to Nash but he played well in the years before Nash came to town. He played well with Kidd, well with Marbury, well with Barbosa and well with Nash. He's almost the most ideal third option SF. He could score well cutting to the basket, but could also setup for three pointers. He hit the boards better than every other SF on this list, picked up steals, got blocks, etc.

He can't score off the dribble, nor pass well, but unlike other players he never tried to do things he can't. Instead Marion maximized what he could do either cutting to the basket for easy dunks or spotting up for threes. Then coming down on the other end and defending the other teams best perimeter scorer and/or cleaning up on the boards.

What really places Marion here is how he compares to everyone else. He's nowhere near as good offensively as Dantley, that's obvious. He's a step behind Pippen offensively. He's possibly as good as Pippen defensively though. Everyone below him scores more than he does but doesn't compare on the other end. If Marion gets any boost it's that he showed he could fit himself into different offenses and thrive at an efficient level by picking and choosing his shots. It's difficult to see some of the next few guys on the list being able to make as much of an impact overall if they're a third scorer as Marion did. That's mostly why he's here.

7. Tracy McGrady / 6-8 / 210

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	B/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
2001-07	24.9	6.1	5.0	1.39	0.79	.528	109	25.0	10.4	7.1	3.3	.183

In 1991 Michael Jordan put up a PER of 31.6 In 2009, LeBron did 31.7 and Wade did 30.4.

In the 18 years inbetween only one perimeter player put up a PER greater than 30. (Shaq and David are not perimeter players.) (Let's remember something else. PER is set to 15 as AVERAGE each year. This means against that year.)

That one player was Tracy McGrady.

Until our modern stars kicked in nobody had replicated Jordan to that point but McGrady.

Tracy McGrady 2002-03:
29.3/5.9/5.0 Usage: 35.2%. Turnover rate: 8.4% OWS: 13.2.

Michael Jordan 1987-93:
30.5/5.9/5.5 Usage: 33.9%. Turnover rate: 9.5% OWS: 13.6.

Yes, it was one year only. But still. You're missing the point if you focus on that. For that one season, McGrady basically WAS Jordan.

Take the first five years and McGrady does 25/6/5 with a 25.6 PER. Just his time in Orlando is 26/6.5/5 with 26.4 PER. The three years he tried and before his back killed him: 26/7/5 on 26.7 PER.

There's an argument to be made that Tracy McGrady had the best season of any 23 year old ever: http://bkref.com/tiny/EYRJ5 Both he and LeBron made the leap from superstar into unfair dominance that season. But while LeBron got even better and unfair at 24 and 25, McGrady regressed and his back issues compounded things.

There is a "what if" scenario where McGrady has no back problems and dominates the league. Although you can argue against this with JVG's recent comments. McGrady was a god from day one, he didn't have to work. He simply dominated from raw talent. Which is kinda scary. We all today can spend lots of time pointing out LeBron's flaws, but it's hard to deny he hasn't built his game over the last half-decade. McGrady didn't really, he was dominant but stuck on the bench until he got to Orlando when he blew up.

Imagine if he actually built upon his game. Dear god.

McGrady and Yao should have been an unstoppable force, but injuries and McGrady's "Iverson" solution to his increasing woes put an end to that.

Only ten players in history have used as many possessions as McGrady has over his career. One in higher on this list, another will be up shortly.

8. Marques Johnson / 6-7 / 218

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	B/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
1978-84	21.7	7.7	3.8	1.38	0.87	.566	114	21.2	10.2	6.7	3.4	.187

White Men Can't Jump and Blue Chips aren't enough? INSIDE DRIVE ISN'T ENOUGH?

SHEEEEIITTTT.

The 1980s Bucks get NO RESPECT. NONE.

Look at your lists, look at my list. Scottie Pippen, Grant Hill, go back to the PGs, Magic Johnson. LeBron James. What do we call them? Point Forwards right? Who first created that term?

Did you guess Marques Johnson? Good boy.

Don Nelson ran out of point guards, so what did he do? Told Johnson to be the point guard. Then a couple years later cast Johnson off to the Clippers (where his career, like so many others died) and had Paul Pressey take over the role.

But remember we're talking about the primes, and that puts Johnson in our list. 22/8/4 is nothing to sniff at. And he was part of the Bucks great defense, so no slouch on that end.

Where does Johnson fall short? How about the fact that the two guys that sent him and his team home every fucking year are higher up on this list? There is literally no team that never made the Finals that can compare to the 1980s Bucks. Literally. There is no debate on this. The Kings peaked for only a couple years, the Nash Suns would have been shut the fuck out. The 1980s Bucks had to face the Sixers and Celtics of the 1980s. It wasn't fair. They even rebuilt in mid-process and still contended with half a new team. But nobody gives a shit.

Fuck the Fab Five, make a 1980s Bucks documentary.

9. Dominique Wilkins / 6-7 /200

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	B/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
1986-92	26.9	6.8	2.8	1.43	0.62	.542	114	23.3	10.1	7.4	2.7	.174

The Human Highlight Film.

He certainly scored more than everyone else on this list. He also jacked more shots than everyone else on this list. Top ten in NBA HISTORY. To his credit he wasn't really wasteful since he got to the line a ton and thus bulked up his overing scoring percentage. But what else did he do? Not really anything.

There's two players in NBA History to use 30+% of their teams possessions while on the court while also assisting on 12.2% of less of their baskets. Wilkins and John Drew. Although Drew did have a third fewer assists. (Thus why I proposed him a few years back as the top ballhog ever.) Shrinking things to 13% assists, only brings in George Gervin which doesn't really help Wilkins.

So what we can we say more in regards for Wilkins? He was a pretty efficient scorer, and not a horrible defender when he wanted to put in the effort. He also was willing to spend his days in Atlanta which would raise questions for most human beings. But we can't really reward him for that. He put up 25/7 endlessly no matter what was around him, no matter how good the Hawks were. That sheer production makes it hard to kick him off any list.

10. Paul Pierce / 6-6 / 230

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	B/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
2005-11	21.2	5.6	3.9	1.22	0.43	.591	113	20.3	9.8	6.0	3.7	.179

Sorry Grant.

Paul got his second half listed here. He also has 2001-07 which is a hair (literally) worse. But in reality his prime is 2001-11 with two years where he and the Celtics themselves gave up cut out. And that's really why I'm giving him the bump.

We're talking about 21/5.5/4 vs 23/6/4 with 113 vs 108 as the ORtg. Paul's played in two great defenses and thrived, Thibs' title winning one and O'Brien's fronting the post one. I won't hold it against him. First Pierce jacked more shots, second one had better shots. The difference is one basket.

But wait, benji, we're supposed to consider the top seven years? Dale with it. Pierce overlaps like Mr. Johnson, Mr. Stockton, Mr. Jordan and Mr. Malone. And one is quite better than Grant Hill, the other behind Hill, so we give him the bump and then back it up with the extra years. Problem solved. You wanna fight about it?

The Next Five
Grant Hill looks a lot like Pippen at 20/7/5.5 but he's slightly worse on defense. Plus he took like four years off, lazy bum. Detlef Schrempf is probably the most underated SF ever. 18/7.5/4.5 on 60% scoring. Brutal. Is it any wonder the Sonics won so many games? Pedja Stojakovic put up 19.3/5.2 on 59% during his prime which puts him up there and very comparable to James Worthy who did 20.2/5.6/3.3 on 58% scoring. Lastly is Andrei Kirilenko who looks ordinary at 14.4/6.8/3.2 until you realize his 1.66/2.69 steal/block ratios dominate everyone else and how he was the best defensive forward of his era once you factor out the injuries. Oh, and a case can be made he's the best defensive player of this fifteen. I personally go with that claim.

Anyone Else? Even if they suck?
Cedric Maxwell scored at 64% but only for 16.3 per game. Chris Mullin did 22/5/4 on 59%. Alex English did 27.1/5.6/4.7 but I played more defense from 1982-88 even though I was only alive for like half that period. Speaking of people who never played defense, Kiki Vandewghe put up 26 on 60% from 1983-89. Glenn Robinson might be the worst 20 per 36 scorer ever. Did you know he put up 30/10 in college? And only signed one contract in his entire career and was a big reason we have the rookie scale today?

Interesting sidenote, Jamaal Wilkes over his seven years averaged 20/6/3. His replacement in the Lakers lineup (Worthy) averaged about 20/6/3 over the next seven years.

Jerry, a Final Word?

Player	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	B/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
Carmelo Anthony(2004-11)	24.5	6.3	3.0	1.11	0.45	.544	107	20.2	7.7	5.0	2.8	.125
Benard King (1981-88)	24.6	5.7	3.2	1.05	0.27	.592	113	20.5	6.8	4.9	1.9	.153
Mark Aguirre (1983-89)	26.4	6.1	4.1	0.95	0.41	.550	110	21.1	6.7	5.1	1.6	.128

[[Q]]

oh damn, marques johnson. that's a good one that i forgot. i'd definitely replace bernard king in my 10 with him.

and i guess i really forgot how good Shawn Marion was until i stopped and thought about it just now. i remember always gunning for him in my fantasy drafts in Live 2001's franchise mode. i remember him winning MVP every season for like 8 or 9 years straight. and today he's still got that freakish Matrix-like athleticism, but numbers have fallen off the side of a cliff since he got traded to miami. yeah playing under d'antoni's system put him on the radar for all-star consideration, but he was playing well before d'antoni came along, topping 10 rpg in one season and in another almost 10 rpg with an astonishing 39% in 3pt% to go along with his superb defensive skills. he's also deserving to be in my top 10, so i guess i'll have to bump off Alex English on the list.

and i've always been a big AK47 fan, especially with him anchoring a lot of my fantasy basketball teams with his ridiculous 1.5+ spg & 3+ bpg seasons. he was probably deserving of defensive player oty in at least one of those seasons, but ben wallace's team was winning a lot of games then

[Andrew]

I completely snubbed Chris Mullin and Shawn Marion. Add those to my honourable mentions list.

[benji]

Found a Bird pass that needs to be in those videos.

Big Ten Network shows old Final Four games randomly. They're showing 1979 title game tonight. (Showed 1989 last night.) Greg Kelser throws this stupid pass, Bird steals it and as he's falling out of bounds throws it almost no look up over the backboard perfectly to one of his teammates. (But he stepped on the line so it was out of bounds.)

And Magic just dunked all over some random white guy, dude was pissed.

It's funny watching both of these guys in this style of offense. (No shot clock, just dribbling a few feet passing, using the entire half court back to the midcourt line constantly, etc. Then someone gets bored and fires up a shot or drives.)

Even funnier are the announcers talking about the "historic achievement of peace in the Middle East" that was beginning that day. Plus the fashions. Although they showed some redhead who was defying the death of disco and would look good even today.

But the best thing of all is Bird steals an inbound pass.

By reaching out of bounds and knocking the ball out of the guys hand, then turns around and lays it in. With a ref standing right there. Motherfucker thought he could get away with it.

He then gets pissed at his teammates because they're down 11 with thirty seconds to go and trying to run the offense instead of feeding him. So when Magic gets the ball, Bird intentionally fouls him by shoving him into the bench. So the Indiana State point guard comes down and jacks a shot from the three point range (there's no line yet) and it turns into a Greg Kelser dunk with two seconds to go as Bird runs back to try and stop it. Then Bird showing how pissed he is at the point guard for not giving him the ball whips it at the guys head on the inbound. Sadly, the guy was looking at him and was thus able to catch it.

and i've always been a big AK47 fan, especially with him anchoring a lot of my fantasy basketball teams with his ridiculous 1.5+ spg & 3+ bpg seasons. he was probably deserving of defensive player oty in at least one of those seasons, but ben wallace's team was winning a lot of games then

He's a machine in 2005 before he gets hurt. 1.8 steals per 36, 3.6 blocks per 36.

But if AK deserves any accolades, he needed them for this season: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/2004.html

You basically cannot find any preview that wasn't thinking the Jazz could be one of the worst teams ever post-Stockalone. (From SI: "Forget everything about the Stockton and Malone era. If this team wins 20 games I'll be surprised. Its only hope is to take on the personality of coach Jerry Sloan and become the NBA's hardest-working team, because this is probably the least talented club in the league....") I remember some site projecting them to win only 8 games. Then they surprised everyone and Harpring got hurt and that was supposed to be that. But they still beat .500.

He's out in Utah, I hope he goes somewhere and gets a title.

Actually, how did I fail to mention that special deal he has with his wife?

[[Q]]

yeah to me it felt like they didn't even know who to give the award to so they just kept giving it to big ben.

and his deal with his wife is pretty cool

that Utah team was a rag tag group of a bunch of relative unknowns at the time but they were all very solid NBA players. seems like every single person on that roster has been in the NBA forever. Carlos Arroyo turned out to be a pretty decent PG, and i was a fan of that kid named Maurice Williams... I knew he had potential back then and I always picked him in my Live 2005 fantasy drafts in dynasty mode. i can't believe they didn't keep him, but then again a PG like him probably didn't really fit into Sloan's system that well
and what was up with Raúl Lopez? wasn't he supposed to be a big deal kinda like how Rubio is now?

[benji]

He wasn't that hyped. But he came over and tore his ACL immediately and missed an entire season. He wasn't horrible, but they traded him to Memphis so he bailed back to Europe. Sorta like Juan Carlos Navarro. Only the Gasol brothers want to play in Memphis it seems.

[[Q]]

yeah i was disappointed JC Navarro went back so soon. i thought he could've been a solid NBA player for a long time. same thing with Garbajosa

[benji]

They get more net in Europe often. All salaries over there are after taxes. Plus they get to be stars, plus all the benefits that come from that. And play at home too.

It's one reason I don't think Rubio is ever coming over.

At least I hope he's not. I want that Wolves draft to be four point guards and them trading the only good one away. (Even though he was the obvious best player. At least to us stat fiends.)

[[Q]]

Jose Calderon has said that he's enjoying playing against the best players in the world and wouldnt mind going back to spain once his nba career is over. rubio... i think if he does come and does play for minny he'll wind up being one & done like JC Navarro. if he gets traded to a bigger city like NY or somewhere like that, he might stay longer. i thought taking flynn so high was a risk at the time and he just might turn out to be the next sebastian telfair/tj ford

[NovU]

Never realized T-Mac actually was a top notch player at one point in his career. Seeing him at 7 was somewhat of a surprise honestly.

Great to see Delef being mentioned there too.

[benji]

I forgot it, but since I did it for the PGs.
Offense: Adrian Dantley, LeBron James, Kiki Vandeweghe, Larry Bird, Dominique Wilkins (Alex English)
Defense: Scottie Pippen, Shawn Marion, Andrei Kirilenko, Julius Erving, Larry Bird (LeBron James)

[[Q]]

no love for Battier/Artest/Bowen in defense?

[benji]

Not the way I did it. I think they have to be in the overall discussion for "greatness" to be included in my splits.

[[Q]]

gotcha. like we said earlier, AK's defensive numbers = redonkulous

[shadowgrin]

Didn't want to make a new thread since the article is old.

SI on Larry Bird.

Bird talking trash.

Last year in the fifth game of the Eastern Conference final agains Detroit, Bird stared at Isiah Thomas, who had just led a Piston charge, and said, "Are you through?"

"No," said Thomas.

"Well, you're through now because it's my turn," said Bird. And it was. Bird took over the game, and the Celtics won 130-123.

He's just a tough guy. He has almost the perfect attitude." Even before he made 11 straight in the three-point shootout at the All-Star Game, Bird, in all likelihood, had the contest won in the locker room when he told the seven other competitors, "All right, who's playing for second?"

Another source regarding him being truly ambidextrous. Not like that vagina Jermaine O'Neal.

By unofficial count, seven of Bird's 21 field goals against Portland on Feb. 14 were shot with his left hand. Newell calls his ability in that area "phenomenal." San Antonio's David Greenwood, a former Bull, remembers a game in Chicago in which Bord was calling out his wrong-handed shots. "'Left hand, left hand,' he kept yelling," said Greenwood. "And he hit everything, including a lefthander while going out of bounds." Bird does eat and write with his left hand, but so do many other athletes (teammate Bill Walton, for one) who don't have Bird's lefthanded athletic abilities.

This is how players should get bored.

It's someone who, though disciplined and studious in his approach to the game, lives for its spontaneity and freshness. "I think Larry gets bored out there sometimes," says teammate Danny Ainge. "I notice that he passes up these incredibly easy shots, and you can sense him thinking, 'Well, why don't I drive down the lane, get a few guys on me and see what happens?'" Bird confirms that. "It happens. I do get bored. Then I look for a way to make it interesting," he says.

Against the Warriors, possibly in one of his bored moments, he drove slowly to the corner and picked up a triple-team. The next thing Walton knew, the ball was coming to him from between Joe Barry Carroll's legs. "I'm not sure how I did that one myself," said Bird. Says Cousy, "I think we could both throw, not the unorthodox pass, but the unexpected pass."