Kobe or LBJ in 2007-2008 season?

[BIG GREEN]

Fair enough...but at the end of the day...how can one prove that he's a better team player than Lebron? His shooting percentage is certainly lower than it was a year ago and i'm sure it has nothing to do with minutes.

[J@3]

I'm not sure shooting percentage has much of an impact on how much of a team player someone is. Jason Kidd (to most people) is clearly a better team player than both Kobe and LeBron but his shooting is absolutely horrific. You can't prove one is a better team player than the other, it all comes down to subjective opinions really.

[BIG GREEN]

I only mentioned the FG% as a side note to my claims about who's better..and efficiency is also a factor. With one shooting 44% and the other shooting 48%.

Surely people are allowed to have their opinions and i'm not trying to take that away from anyone. However, my whole gripe from the beginning is the inability of people in general from being able to atleast try to back up their opinions with any sort of credible source or statistics. Saying something IS...without giving just cause or reason is something that just doesn't make sense to me. Reminds me of religion.

I think i've done a good job backing up most of my claims in this thread. I even quoted articles and linked a one-on-one game situation between the two of them this season where lebron left the victor in every possible way. At this point...i feel like if i posted much about the topic i'd be sounding like a broken record. I expect more posts about kobe being better because he's had good seasons in the past and how he's been a better defender throughout his career. Those posts i will ignore.

[J@3]

I only mentioned the FG% as a side note to my claims about who's better..and efficiency is also a factor. With one shooting 44% and the other shooting 48%.

One stat alot of NBA teams are looking at as a more accurate representation of shooting is True Shooting Percentage (this is how it's calculated), Kobe's TS% is 56.1, LeBron's is 56. eFG (effective FG%) doesn't take FT's into account (Kobe is far superior here so his TS% is boosted), LeBron's is 50.9% and Kobe's is 48.6%. So really they aren't that far apart.

[Matthew]

I only mentioned the FG% as a side note to my claims about who's better..and efficiency is also a factor. With one shooting 44% and the other shooting 48%.

Surely people are allowed to have their opinions and i'm not trying to take that away from anyone. However, my whole gripe from the beginning is the inability of people in general from being able to atleast try to back up their opinions with any sort of credible source or statistics. Saying something IS...without giving just cause or reason is something that just doesn't make sense to me. Reminds me of religion.

I think i've done a good job backing up most of my claims in this thread. I even quoted articles and linked a one-on-one game situation between the two of them this season where lebron left the victor in every possible way. At this point...i feel like if i posted much about the topic i'd be sounding like a broken record. I expect more posts about kobe being better because he's had good seasons in the past and how he's been a better defender throughout his career. Those posts i will ignore.

This sounds like a mission statement rather then a post to ignite conversation, and everytime someone has responded your posts or statements about Lebron you quickly say "I'm just backing it up with stats" or "most Kobe fans dont back anything up"

There are just as ignorant Lebron James fans as Kobe Bryant ones, but that doesn't mean one is better then the other.

[BIG GREEN]

I only mentioned the FG% as a side note to my claims about who's better..and efficiency is also a factor. With one shooting 44% and the other shooting 48%.

Surely people are allowed to have their opinions and i'm not trying to take that away from anyone. However, my whole gripe from the beginning is the inability of people in general from being able to atleast try to back up their opinions with any sort of credible source or statistics. Saying something IS...without giving just cause or reason is something that just doesn't make sense to me. Reminds me of religion.

I think i've done a good job backing up most of my claims in this thread. I even quoted articles and linked a one-on-one game situation between the two of them this season where lebron left the victor in every possible way. At this point...i feel like if i posted much about the topic i'd be sounding like a broken record. I expect more posts about kobe being better because he's had good seasons in the past and how he's been a better defender throughout his career. Those posts i will ignore.

This sounds like a mission statement rather then a post to ignite conversation, and everytime someone has responded your posts or statements about Lebron you quickly say "I'm just backing it up with stats" or "most Kobe fans dont back anything up".

...but looking back at this thread...can you honestly say those two quotes aren't true? I give kudos where it's due. I haven't dissed anyone when they make a backed up rebutal. You're right...both sides have people who don't debate the topic well..and I didn't say that is a reason to prove either is better.

[Matthew]

Ok then, lets discuss this season only (seeing thats the guidelines for this topic)

From what I've seen, not stats I've read, Kobe seems to do alot more away from the ball then Lebron. His help defense, movement (cuts and backscreens) and his willingness to swing the ball has all helped the Lakers this season.

Also, the way teams make a conscious effort to limit Kobe's scoring opens thing up for his teammates like Bynum.

There is not a more explosive offensive player in the NBA right now then Kobe.

But with that he also at time has questionable shot selection and can easily be over aggressive which can cause his teammates to stand around.

Kobe is a more genuine leader. Lebron is a much more generic "leader". I remember when he tried to run in for Anderson Varejo against the Nets last season.. He has to be smarter then that. What will happen in a huge series if he tries that and someone takes a swing at him? Either Lebron will back down or he will retaliate and that will lead to a suspension.

Lebron, in my opinion, is simply not as smart of a basketball player as Kobe (for now anyway).

[BIG GREEN]

So you would select Kobe over Lebron this season if you had to make a choice based on those points? To each their own then....care to join me for a Cavs vs. Lakers over xbox live sometime?

EDIT : I don't see you on my friends list anymore...did you delete me or something? Thats cold brother.

[tommi]

what about his ability to rebound and to set up his teammates with assists

Just so you know LeBron averages just 2 assists more than Kobe while playing almost 5 more minutes, so if Kobe would say play identical minutes as LeBron then what, LeBron can only set up his teammates .__ better? And Kobe would probably score more points too.

And as for the Rebounding differential, LeBron's 6-8, 250 that's like the average PF, and Kobe, 6-6 , 205. Big Difference huh? So uh, yeah, I don't think you are being fair. Bigger Guys generally get more rebounds.

But then again, since you seem like a guy who would stand by your posts, I do not expect you to respond. .

I won't be responding to your posts on this topic again my friend.

^^
Way to avoid someone who sees holes in your arguments, impressive

[Matthew]

So you would select Kobe over Lebron this season if you had to make a choice based on those points? To each their own then....care to join me for a Cavs vs. Lakers over xbox live sometime?

EDIT : I don't see you on my friends list anymore...did you delete me or something? Thats cold brother.

Do you have my new gamertag, georgiecostanza?

Add me and I'll play you on nba 2k8, lets hope its not too laggy.

And I think Kobe and Lebron are nearly equal. It comes down to little things when comparing the two. It's not like we're comparing mj to malone.

[BIG GREEN]

I'll send you a request tommorow...my wife says ive had enough xbox live for the day.

[Matt]

Debating 101...this is how someone makes a claim then backs it up http://www.nba.com/games/20071220/LALCLE/boxscore.html
Keep in mind that they guarded each other in that game.

the recap doesn't mention that Kobe injured his thigh/groin a cpl of games before and wasn't moving as fluidly as normal.

[tommi]

the recap doesn't mention that Kobe injured his thigh/groin a cpl of games before and wasn't moving as fluidly as normal.

yeah almost forgot about that.proof that stats, article, box scores, all have limitations. And without proper analysis, are merely numbers. That groin/thigh injury happened at the Warriors game, 6 days before the Cavs game. Kobe sat out the 4th qtr in that close game, for not just dwelling on numbers.

[BIG GREEN]

Debating 101...this is how someone makes a claim then backs it up http://www.nba.com/games/20071220/LALCLE/boxscore.html
Keep in mind that they guarded each other in that game.

the recap doesn't mention that Kobe injured his thigh/groin a cpl of games before and wasn't moving as fluidly as normal.

..boy I sure do love the excuses people come up with.

how do you explain him scoring 32 vs. the clippers right after the groin injury then 39 vs. the knicks 2 games after the cavs? That's a strange injury...it seems to pick and choose when it affects him. I think I had that injury when i was a kid...it stopped me from going to school during certain quiz days...i believe it was called bullshit-itis.

[tommi]

Debating 101...this is how someone makes a claim then backs it up http://www.nba.com/games/20071220/LALCLE/boxscore.html
Keep in mind that they guarded each other in that game.

the recap doesn't mention that Kobe injured his thigh/groin a cpl of games before and wasn't moving as fluidly as normal.

..boy I sure do love the excuses people come up with.

how do you explain him scoring 32 vs. the clippers right after the groin injury then 39 vs. the knicks 2 games after the cavs? That's a strange injury...it seems to pick and choose when it affects him. I think I had that injury when i was a kid...it stopped me from going to school during certain quiz days...i believe it was called bullshit-itis.

They faced the Clippers and the Bulls befor the Cavs but then who are we Kidding here? I do not know which of those teams has a player who can guard Kobe man to man. LeBron was just a big guy who wore him down and last I looked, Kobe never sat down with that groin injury and I don't think he would've sat down with a finger injury either.

I'm starting to think someone in this thread actually hates Kobe and is a LeBron homer.

[Silas]

Kobe's performance verses the Sonics explains exactly why Kobe is the better player at this point in time. LeBron is much bigger and can finish better in the lane, but Kobe has a superior jump shot, which torched the Sonics, he is a much better defender (he shut down Kevin Durant in the overtime), and he is much, much more clutch.

The Sonics were winning by four with less than two minutes to go in the overtime, and Kobe makes three unstoppable jump shots in a row to give them a two points lead. On the following possession, Kobe denies Kevin Durant a last look shot, forcing them to call a timeout, and then he denies him again after the timeout, forcing Nick Collison to take a twenty foot jump shot from the corner to try to tie the game.

That's just something I have never seen LeBron do, yet it seems like Kobe can do that anytime.

Oh yes, and Kobe also had the flu that game, but I'm sure that's beside the point.

[benji]

Yep, one single game proves it. Case closed.

[Silas]

Well if that's the way you want to interpret it, I suppose so. Lets lock the thread.

[BIG GREEN]

First of all...I don't expect a reply of this post...cause when you prove people wrong..rather than admit it..they stay quiet.
If Kobe's performance last night proves he's the best player in the league...then what does LeBron's almost triple double performance tonight vs. memphis say?

Lebron...

51 Pts.
9 assists.
8 rebounds.
3 steals.

http://www.nba.com/games/20080115/CLEMEM/boxscore.html

He scores 25 points in the fourth quarter and overtime combined including a 3 that tied the game in overtime then forcing a turnover to seal the game. He did all of this in only 28 shots vs. kobe jacking up 44 shots...efficiency anyone?

I won't be silly like some people and say this game alone proves he's the best player. Infact i wouldn't even have talked about this game if Silas didn't open his mouth. You might wanna put your foot in your mouth now Silas. kthxbye.

[LakersRule24]

Kobe the last couple years was a scoring shot jacking egotistical selfish ballhogging maniac. He was the devil. He was a horrible team player and didn't understand the concept of team ball because his team got 42 wins. Lebron was the best player because he was a team player and he led a team all by himself to the NBA Finals(no teammates no coach no staff) 1 on 15 + staff + Management(gotta love that contradiction, how could you be a team player that makes others better yet still win games all by yourself).

Now it's the opposite. Now it's Lebron being that selfish guy. He's scoring all the points but his team is losing. Kobe on the other hand is leading his team to the 1st seed in the West and is on pace to getting out of the 1st round in the tough Western conference. Yet Lebron is still the best player? You gotta love the hypocrisy.

[BIG GREEN]

If you don't know what you're talking about...please don't make yourself look stupid. The cavs are losing? They won the game....infact since LeBron has been back from his injury the Cavs have won 9 out of their last 12 Games. Before he went out with the injury their record was something like 9 and 6.

They went below .500 when he was injured now their 2 above .500 since he's been back. How exactly is he "scoring all the points and their losing"? Kobe "scored all the points" lastnight with the victory and you didn't have a problem with that did you? "You gotta love the hypocrisy"

[benji]

How is that "hypocrisy"?

You described styles of play, and team successes, not quality of the individuals play.

And the Cavs are "losing" despite being over .500? How is LeBron being selfish by having to drag his team to victories most games?

Unless, you're trying to say that's what people are arguing, which still wouldn't be hypocritical.

is on pace to getting out of the 1st round in the tough Western conference.

Um, what? How can they be "on pace" for any specific result in the playoffs?

[BIG GREEN]

The Dallas Mavericks were on "pace" (whatever that means) to get out of the first round last year too...and we all know how great that went. This is the thing i wanted to avoid...talking about this topic with people who don't know shit about nba basketball. Another person worth ignoring from now on.

[J@3]

I've sort of lost track of what this thread is about. LeBron has been a better individual performer this season, Kobe has been more successful. Whether this is down to Kobe's teammates stepping it up, Kobe altering his game so they can do so or a mix of both I don't know. I suspect we never will.

[---]

It's close, but I'd still take Kobe at this point. He's the best scorer in the league, he can hurt you from anywhere on the floor offensively - posting up smaller guards, driving to the rim, getting to the freethrow line, long range threes, midrange jumpers, finishing with an incredible degree of difficulty - scoring wise he's extemely dynamic and virtually unstoppable. Kobe is just as good a finisher as LeBron, and get's to the rim just as easy. LeBron does not have a jumpshot of a guy like Kobe yet, ditto for free throw shooting. Ballhandling is pretty much even, they are both very good ballhandlers for their size and use that to get pretty much anywhere on the court they want.

His defence is very good, but personally I think he has been slacking for a while. I haven't seen enough of the Lakers this season to say otherwise. Still, slacking or not, in my opinion he is a better defender than LeBron in every way except maybe coming across on help to block shots. LeBron's crazy athletic ability (Kobe's no slouch either, but LeBron is something else) really helps him out with that, as well as his feel for the game resulting in good instincts, timing, etc.

LeBron is better at making those around him better. He's got the court vision of a guy like Jason Kidd, in a 6'8 frame. What's more important, he's one of the best scorers in the league, so he demands alot of attention, making his passing ability even more dangerous. Kobe's a pretty good passer as well and he see's the floor well, but it's just not in his instinct to pass. Everytime he get's the ball he's thinking about scoring. LeBron get's his teammates easy baskets much more often and is less likely to sieze up an offensive set by taking a bad shot. Kobe has proved he can play more in the flow of the game like LeBron rather than dominating the ball so much, but he's yet to do so over the course of a season. He has done a good job of doing it so far this year, and the Lakers are really benefitting from it. If you have the ability of a guy like Kobe, other teams are going to put alot of pressure on you. If you decide to try do it all yourself and pretty much ignore your teammates unless they are wide open under the basket, you're throwing a very imortant option out the window and hurting your team. If Kobe played more like LeBron in this aspect, his scoring effenciancy would also increase because the defence has to also focus on the other 4 players instead of pretty much being focused all out on Kobe. It's a win-win situation for him, I just don't think it's how he plays, his mindset.

LeBron's a better rebounder statistically, but remember he is stronger, more athletic and plays a different position. Kobe also plays with two very good rebounders in Lamar Odom and Andrew Bynum, and it's still very close. I would say Kobe has a better nose for the ball, but LeBron's situation and physical gifts make him the guy more likely to end up with the ball after a missed shot.

Overall, I think Kobe's the better player. LeBron is incredible though, and unless Kobe changes his mindset (ie. continuing to play as he has this season), it's only a matter of time before LeBron takes the crown. LeBron will always have the advantage mentally because while being less skilled overall, he very rarely hurts the team. Kobe is a great player, but when he hurts you, it does alot of damage - if he's shouldering the load to an extreme and can't get it done, the Lakers simply will not win.

Talk about two incredibly talented players.