The "who's better?" thread

[benji]

Why?

[Andrew]

Like Oznogrd pretty much said about Rondo, the fact that he does have a ring, makes him pretty darn good. But Paul is over him. If D-Will had a ring, Im pretty sure that his and Rondos positions might change.

I'm pretty sure that if any of the other players on that list were in the same starting lineup as Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen circa 2008, they'd have a ring too.

[benji]

If Chris Paul was in Rondo's place they would have won again in 2009 and 2010. And likely again this year. Health (for everyone involved) being relevant as always of course.

The Celtics would not have won a title with Derrick Rose in 2008, I can guarantee that. He had academic standards to violate still.

[shadowgrin]

[Cruzerr]

Like Oznogrd pretty much said about Rondo, the fact that he does have a ring, makes him pretty darn good. But Paul is over him. If D-Will had a ring, Im pretty sure that his and Rondos positions might change.

I'm pretty sure that if any of the other players on that list were in the same starting lineup as Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen circa 2008, they'd have a ring too.

You could say that with this years Miami Heat. You had Wade, LeBron and Ostrich on one team. Sure to dominate and all. But Dirk came out as a champ.

Also, so true at Shadows pic

[benji]

The Heat had fundamental flaws and a structurally unsound roster, the 2008 Celtics did not.

[Andrew]

The Celtics would not have won a title with Derrick Rose in 2008, I can guarantee that. He had academic standards to violate still.

Sorry, I meant KG, Pierce and Allen at the level they were at circa 2008 (or I guess more their health, KG in particular). Take any of those players as they are now and put them with the KG, Pierce and Allen from 2008 and I believe they'd have a ring.

You could say that with this years Miami Heat. You had Wade, LeBron and Ostrich on one team. Sure to dominate and all. But Dirk came out as a champ.

The difference being that Boston's trio actually did win it all.

[benji]

Sorry, I meant KG, Pierce and Allen at the level they were at circa 2008 (or I guess more their health, KG in particular). Take any of those players as they are now and put them with the KG, Pierce and Allen from 2008 and I believe they'd have a ring.

Derrick Rose in 2008. It was a joke.

Derrick Blows strikes again!

[Andrew]

Yeah, I got it. I wanted to clarify my previous post.

[Cruzerr]

Well... you got me there.

[shadowgrin]

[Cruzerr]

[x-uNdErRaTeD-z]

I believe Rondo is overrated compared to the top point guards. I say Paul, D-Wil, Rose, Rondo/Westbrook. Steve Nash and Jason Kidd are very underrated too due to their ages.

[Andrew]

I'd still put Nash and Kidd in the discussion too, Nash in particular just keeps going and going. As for Rondo, I say he deserves to be in the discussion. With his passing and rebounding, he can have a big impact without scoring a lot of points and he's very good in that role for the Celtics. He was putting up some amazing assist numbers at the beginning of last season, I thought he was sure to break Scott Skiles' record at some point. His jumpshot is probably still the weakest of that group though, his free throw shooting is spotty and he tapered off a bit after Perkins was traded. With the slump and injury in the Playoffs, his 2011 campaign didn't end nearly as well as it started but he's still up there amongst point guards.

[rise]

Not to mention Rondo plays some really good defense and he's really athletic. He would be a top 3 PG if he had anything resembling a jump shot. Or a free throw, for that matter. I was convinced at the beginning of the season that Rondo would be the top PG in the league by the end of the season. His game seemed to go down after the Perkins trade (which is fairly surprising, seeing as Perkins was injured when Rondo had all those berserk statlines in October and November).

Also if I remember correctly, Rondo had an ankle injury mid-season, and I'm not sure if that was keeping him down more than just a few weeks.

For Nash: it pains me to say it, but I thought he declined quite a bit last season. He definitely wasn't as quick as he was last year and I don't think he was shooting as well. When J-Rich was traded, I think we expected (I did anyway) Nash to pick up some of the scoring load J-Rich left behind. The fact Nash's ppg dropped to 14 without J-Rich or STAT leads me to believe that Nash really just can't score like he could before, which is totally understandable at 37, but still sad at the same time.
Although I do think Steve could average a double-double into his 40s if he wanted to, but e could play till 45 and still be a top 10/15 point guard in the league. Same goes for Kidd. Chauncey Billups, because of his shooting, could also remain a top 10/15 PG until his retirement, but he certainly will not be playing into his 40s.

[NovU]

I hope Nash only declined last season because there wasn't much motivation or need. He seriously needs to go to a contender and hopely win a ring or two. The guy deserves it more than any other.

[_Steve_]

I hope Nash only declined last season because there wasn't much motivation or need. He seriously needs to go to a contender and hopely win a ring or two. The guy deserves it more than any other.

I agree on that.
If Nash will not be traded to an contender soon - I don't think PHX will be a contender next season - I fear he will take a similar fate as Juwan Howard: Greedy to win a ring and not able to retire.

Concerning Kidd, I was kinda surprised how well he played at his age. Oldest starting PG to win a ring means definitly something. Even if his stats dropped a little bit from from the year before, he had quiet solid numbers and an impact on the team not masurable in numbers.

[Andrew]

Nash probably has lost another step given that he's a year older and creeping up on the big four-oh, but aside from his scoring his numbers stayed about the same. In fact, his assists were actually slightly up even with Amar'e in New York. At this point of his career you probably couldn't really make any long term plans involving him but a team looking to get a quality point guard for a couple of decent Playoff/title runs could do a lot worse than Nash.

[rise]

I want Nash to rejoin the Mavericks and take Grant Hill with him.

[Andrew]

It would be nice to see those guys get a ring. Class acts.

[_Steve_]

I want Nash to rejoin the Mavericks and take Grant Hill with him.

Even with Nash and Hill I doubt that Dallas would defend it's title...

[rise]

It would be nice to see those guys get a ring. Class acts.

Dallas could pick up T-Mac and VC along the way.

I want Nash to rejoin the Mavericks and take Grant Hill with him.

Even with Nash and Hill I doubt that Dallas would defend it's title...

I think they have a good chance at it.

Unless Miami exceeds all our expectations and gets like 70 wins next season. And if LeBron finds his 4th quarter.

[Andrew]

I wouldn't count the Mavericks out just yet. We'll have to see what moves other teams make first once things get going again but right now I'd say if they bring back the same core the Mavs should be considered one of the frontrunners.

[_Steve_]

I would not count the Mavs out. I just think teams like MIA or LAL could not show their full potential while the Mavs might played at the highest level they could get. If they can keep focused on winning they are contenders, but I'd also consider the average age of that team plus the fact that their key guys have a ring now. So one thing that really was a stimulus for them to push even harder is now gone...

[NovU]

How could anyone count out the Mavs? They're the defending chumps with cores intact maybe even better with Butler back healthy. Even thought they're to be one year older, they still should be on the top of most peoples' power ranks untill they're dethroned. Seems to me Dirk and cos aren't still getting enough respect around.