Chicago Bulls Thread

[magius]

Although I agree both randolph and o'neal wouldn't be ideal, I think I still prefer either over gordon if it were a straight up one for one.... especially if rose is drafted. The difference between gordon and randolph isn't so much on defense, but rather on the offensive end... I think having a player like randolph benefits a star point guard more than having a player like gordon.

rose and jay williams are completely different players, but I still remember when he was hailed as the second coming. Hell, if only the present day bulls still had THOSE players.

[benji]

The whole point in my post on Avery was that, from my point of view, I would keep Jason Kidd in because I trust him to make the right play - patricularly the right pass in a critical situation.

But what does this have to do with the value of a pass, especially those by Jason Kidd?

Read my post. I was saying the only statistic that shows a good pass occured is an assist.

I read your post, and you said nothing about passing turnovers. Why would I only count good things? Why wouldn't I count good things (assists) as a function of good things and bad things (passing turnovers)?

That's up to you to say that - but let's be serious, I'm not making rediculous claims here

I am serious. You make nothing but ridiculous claims.

And I trust my eyes to help me form my opinion.

But I don't trust your eyes, so you need to find some way to convince me your opinion is in some sort of correlation with reality.

Again, exaggerating to the highest level. Yes, scouts present GM's with statistics. But they also give their own views on the player - there is not, and will never be, a statistic for every single movement that goes on in a basketball game. So if a scout can't prove it through statistics, you'd probably fire him.

How am I exaggerating? What facts did you bring to the table in your "scouting report" at the top of the page? If that was a scouting report you brought me as GM, I would then have to go and verify all the claims you made on my own or with another scout because you provided nothing to support them.

Of course, any scout can give me their opinion of a player, but that is not a fact and not very useful. Plus, I need to have trust in the ability of that scout. Hopefully because he's proven something to me before. You have not done this, we have not done this, so the burden of proof is on us to provide information that supports our thesis. No matter how badly you wish to be an expert scout, there is no reason for anyone on the forum to believe any of your claims without something to support them. Your status as a poster or viewer of game snippets is not enough to provide support in my opinion.

How can something that doesn't show the full story, show more than the full story itself?

So, when you watch a single game, you have the full story? What's the last game you watched? How many dribbles did the backup point guard on the home team take when catching the ball outside the three point line and stepping first with his right leg? How many did he take based on these critera over the course of the entire season? Wait. You can't count them, that'd be gathering data, something you said one isn't allowed to do.

When you go 100% of stats, you're basically doing that.

Unless, I'm using data not from the boxscore?

When it loaded it was half inbetween two posts, neither by you.

What browser are you using? Anyway, it's the last post in the thread.

No, every stat that involves those base statistics I mentioned are derived from a regular old boxscore.

I believe I said: "Let me know where you can find box scores that list offensive fouls, ball handling and passing turnovers, jumpers, dunks and tips, etc." Did you find those in a regular old boxscore? Because I'd love to see such a thing.

[Andrew]

Also, the idea of a rose-gordon backcourt would not be very appealing to me. Small ball all the time is a losing strategy. If you look at williams and west, even nash, they succeed because they control the ball predominantly - all three also play with good pf's with decent mid range games. For gordon to be effective he needs to control the ball, otherwise he becomes more of a defensive liability than his offensive production warrants... that is, it wouldn't make sense to keep him on the floor, he'll get outscored more than he will score. I wouldn't mind bringing gordon off the bench, ala barbosa, but as a consistent starter, no thank you. If rose is to succeed to the extent that williams or paul have, he needs a better post presence to pick and roll with... brand looks to me to be the best prospect, jermaine o'neal might be okay too.... or perhaps gamble on zach randolph?

Zach Randolph? No way. The last thing the Bulls need is a player with an attitude like Randolph's, getting upset and pouting because a coach has the audacity to fine him for skipping practice. I don't think he's worth the risk. Jermaine O'Neal would be better in that regard but he's only played in an average of around 52 games the past four seasons (or an average of 54 over the last three if you want to disregard the 04/05 season with the Palace Brawl suspensions).

[Dan's Brain]

Agreed on Randolph. If the Bulls were to go after a Knicks' big, then it had better be David Lee, who they wouldn't be able to get. Jermaine's last 3 years do fill me with a certain reluctance to go after him. Brand would be great, but potentially expensive.

I still say go after Rose, and see what he's able to get out of Tyrus, Noah, Deng, Hughes, Gordon and the incomparable Aaron Gray. At the same time, keep shopping Hinrich (his trade value could rise back up again with some time playing off the ball) but only for the right package.

[Andrew]

Brand would be great but I think that's just a pipe dream. It would be a major coup if they could do it though, especially if they could keep Gordon so they'd keep a perimeter threat to complement Brand's presence in the low post.

[Drex]

Back off, Bulls fans. Brand will be a Sixer. Quote me in October

[The X]

Back off, Bulls fans. Brand will be a Sixer. Quote me in October

Brand will end up in Miami, back where he originally was meant to end up

[kinokong]

Back off, Bulls fans. Brand will be a Sixer. Quote me in October

how far are the sixers under the cap??? and is brand restricted or unrestricted???

[air gordon]

While it is easy to say trade some combination of Hinrich or whoever to get a post player, getting it done (and who) is another story
There was a good thread @realgm where a poster identified each team’s “best” post player and whether or not the bulls could/or just maybe be able to acquire that player. He narrowed it down to:
Okafor
Camby
Brand
Al Harrington
Jermaine O’neal
Zach Randolph
Antawn Jamison
Jeff Green

Other then brand, none is a no-brainer… and likely the most unattainable of the bunch. The rest come with some kind of risk: whether it be injury, age, or contract issues. But it only makes sense that this list of players who may be available are just that, otherwise they wouldn’t be on the market
There’s some talk about freeing up $ for the possible big name free agents in 2010, so perhaps trading for Jermaine O’Neal/renting him for 2yrs could make sense

Maybe someone like Okafor could make sense. Not the ideal post scorer but maybe playing with Rose and Gordon could light a fire under his arse. Definitely it would solidify the C spot defensively. Still health concerns though
Not much to pick from at this point considering the bulls trade value.

Maybe a Rose-Gordon could work,though ideally he’s a 6th man. He doesn’t have to dominate the ball to be effective- the bulls a lot of times run Gordon off those high screens/high pick-n-rolls to free him up ( since he can’t dribble against good ball pressure). And plus he had a lot of 3pt looks from the Bulls “draw&kick” type of offense. Perhaps it seems like he’s dominating the ball because he’s the “best” on the team on creating his shot

[Dan's Brain]

There’s some talk about freeing up $ for the possible big name free agents in 2010

Forgive my ignorance, but which free agents are they?

[kinokong]

There’s some talk about freeing up $ for the possible big name free agents in 2010

Forgive my ignorance, but which free agents are they?

possibly melo, lebron, wade, and so on assuming they don't sign extensions.....

[hova-]

It aint all about stats, benji. It is really really tough to get this in you head, actually its not possible. There are things you cant measure that are important.

Plz give me stats for the following claim:

Bruce Bowen is an excellent defender.

I can guarantee that the stats you give will not be too convincing, but actually we all no that his positioning and his "dirty", tough play makes it hard for anyone to score.

And Benji, have you ever played basketball or are you playing basketball in your free time. You would definitely know that when youre on the court it aint all about stats or stuff...

[Ashman23]

http://ballhype.com/story/ballad_for_the_combo_guard/ Maybe some of you guys could read this article about rating guards, you might be in for a surprise.

Now, can we get back to talking about the Bulls.

I'd love to see Rose as a Bull and without too much damage to the team bring in a post player. Maybe we have to dump half the squad for Brand, but maybe we could pick up Maggette at the same time.

[shadowgrin]

The the Bulls would have to dump three-fourths of the squad to get Brand and Maggette.

[Andrew]

Brand can opt out of his contract this offseason which could work to the Bulls advantage if it forces the Clippers' hand. Perhaps they'd be interested in Hinrich given Livingston's uncertain future. Still, I'm inclined to believe that Brand will remain a Clipper for now.

[kinokong]

http://ballhype.com/story/ballad_for_the_combo_guard/ Maybe some of you guys could read this article about rating guards, you might be in for a surprise.

Now, can we get back to talking about the Bulls.

I'd love to see Rose as a Bull and without too much damage to the team bring in a post player. Maybe we have to dump half the squad for Brand, but maybe we could pick up Maggette at the same time.

the bulls would have to give up kirk hinrich, ben gordon, tyrus thomas, joakim noah, and someone else to get those 2 players and i'm not sure it's worth it..... sure it helps clear out the logjams but wat u got is maggette and hughes on the same team and they both need the ball to function well.....the best situation would be where brand isn't sure about the clippers future and forces a sign and trade..... i'd be willing to give up hinrich, gordon, and thomas for brand.... but brand was traded from the bulls for tyson chandler and i think he isn't too fond of the management..... would he be willing to come back?

[Ashman23]

The the Bulls would have to dump three-fourths of the squad to get Brand and Maggette.

If it included Hinrich, Gordon, TT and whomever, I'd still do it. Fortune favours the brave, Pax has supposedly been link to KG, Kobe and Gasol, look how they have all turned out. Now I understand that doesn't automatically mean it'll work in this instance, but it would certain create some hype.

[shadowgrin]

Yes, create hype! Hype wins games!

[Dan's Brain]

And hype served the Bulls so win this season.

[Lamrock]

The the Bulls would have to dump three-fourths of the squad to get Brand and Maggette.

If I were the Bulls, I would be willing to dump three-fourths of my squad for nothing.

[Matthew]

Yes, create hype! Hype wins games!

Hype usually makes money though.

[Andrew]

If it included Hinrich, Gordon, TT and whomever, I'd still do it. Fortune favours the brave, Pax has supposedly been link to KG, Kobe and Gasol, look how they have all turned out. Now I understand that doesn't automatically mean it'll work in this instance, but it would certain create some hype.

I'm not sure Paxson can be faulted for the situations with Kobe and KG though, since it's not certain that a deal was close to being done. Paxson has been criticised for choosing Deng and Gordon over Kobe or KG but that assumes he's the one that backed out of all the deals. I'm skeptical as to whether Kobe to Chicago was ever close to being a reality, for all the talk there was about it happening. KG's name came up in so many scenarios before he finally was traded this past offseason that it's difficult to sort idle speculation and casual discussion from the almost-deals.

[air gordon]

Ironically you can blame Paxson for instilling this philosophy of drafting good “character” type players from big name college programs. or perhaps it does work after all but he’s misjudged almost all his draft picks. Duhon is a drunk and can’t make it on time for games & practices. Same goes for Noah. Aaron Grey is complaining about lack of PT. But most importantly the team gave up early on last season

The the Bulls would have to dump three-fourths of the squad to get Brand and Maggette.

If it included Hinrich, Gordon, TT and whomever, I'd still do it. Fortune favours the brave, Pax has supposedly been link to KG, Kobe and Gasol, look how they have all turned out. Now I understand that doesn't automatically mean it'll work in this instance, but it would certain create some hype.

They probably have a better shot at Maggette by dangling Hinrich but they should go for Brand

but brand was traded from the bulls for tyson chandler and i think he isn't too fond of the management..... would he be willing to come back?

it's different management now. seems to me that it was the record setting losing that made Brand want to leave Chicago

[Andrew]

Gray is complaining about minutes already? I'd like to see it happen but whatever happened to paying your dues?

[shadowgrin]

Of course he should complain, he's the best big white man to come out of last year's draft.

Dues shmues.