Chicago Bulls Thread

[Andrew]

I haven't seen any of the games yet (the game against Phoenix will be shown on Fox Sports this Friday though) so I'm only going on the numbers but they don't look particularly good, especially the 1-5 record. They've stumbled a bit out of the gate these last three years including the 0-9 start but this team is a lot better than 1-5. It's still early and nine of the fifteen teams in the East are .500 or worse but they can't afford to take too long to get going if they want a good seed, or even make the Playoffs at this pace.

[TheMC5]

Judging from the 2 Bulls games I've watched (Pistons and Raptors), the Bulls problems are threefold.

1. No one can hit a shot.

2. Skiles seems to be going with some strange rotations/match ups.

3. Due to the aforementioned shooting woes, Chicago's spacing has been quite poor, as teams have been able to collapse in the paint, making it very difficult for Chicago to get easy scores and establish any kind of momentum.

As such, I really wouldn't be too concerned just yet if I were a Bulls fan. Hinrich has a sprained finger or something, which is certainly at least partially responsible for his terrible shooting thus far. You can also expect players to regress to the mean in terms of shooting %, which would open up the rest of the game immensely, and even help provide motivation on defense, which also been lacking so far, somewat understandably.

[Andrew]

2. Skiles seems to be going with some strange rotations/match ups.

I'm not surprised to hear that, it's one of the things that's always frustrated me about Skiles' approach since the 2005 season. I read that he pulled the starters because he didn't want to subject them to the booing, or something like that. I personally would have thought leaving them out there to compete a bit longer before declaring extended garbage time would be a better approach.

[air gordon]

AG, I think Tyrus had 4 in the Philly game alone.

His shot looks great, remember the play where he took someone off the dribble and pulled up (I believe it was Reggie Evans)... so sweet.

or that play he took 'sheed off the dribble but finished at the rim

i honestly can't believe he's hitting the jumper even though he'll remind us not to get overly excited by shooting complete bricks


andrew- in that toronto game they were getting their asses handed to them. they were playing solid D, but they couldn't score. the starters had their chance up until the early 3rd to do something. for once- i was fine with the mass substitution

at some point the jump shots are going to start falling. or least they better start since Paxson basically put forth the same roster/didn't address the team's big weakness.

if there was one positive to draw from this horrid start- it's the play of Joe Smith. i was skeptical on this guy still being serviceable, but this guy has made me a believer.

[puttincomputers]

the bulls should trade wallace. who for? i have no idea. i just do not like the guy. maybe for tyson chandler an maybe someone else? just a thought

hmm yal still laughin?

[TheMC5]

the bulls should trade wallace. who for? i have no idea. i just do not like the guy. maybe for tyson chandler an maybe someone else? just a thought

hmm yal still laughin?

Wait, I've got a better one. Bulls should trade JamesOn Curry to Phoenix for Steve Nash and Amare Stoudemire. And then, they should invent a time machine, go back to '93 and pick up MJ and Pippen, bring them back to the present, and go on a 76 game winning streak, ending with a 77-5 record.

Oh, they should also enlist the world's top engineers to build a 12' robot center, with the mechanical precision to put a ball in a basket from 100 miles away 999,999 times out of 1,000,000.

[---]

the bulls should trade wallace. who for? i have no idea. i just do not like the guy. maybe for tyson chandler an maybe someone else? just a thought

hmm yal still laughin?

Everyone was laughing because you mentioned the Bulls trading for Tyson Chandler.

[puttincomputers]

yeah t c is a lot better so nevermind trading for him

[Dan's Brain]

Do you have any idea what team Tyson Chandler used to play for?

And who needed to be dealt so the Bulls could sign Ben Wallace?


I just watched the Phoenix game. There was just a whole bunch of Meh.

The quick-shooting approach may have worked last year, but this Bulls team cant seem to shoot, which is affecting their whole game, their transition defence is nowhere near where it should be. Ben Wallace has been a pussy. Skiles needs to take his headband back just to get him pissed off again.

Joakim Noah would probably thrive defensively against fast-paced teams like the Suns, he would have done a better job of staying in front of Shawn Marion.

And Thabo needs to be getting minutes.

The rotations are a joke. Pure and simple.

[air gordon]

sounds like those problems you just listed are player related, not coaching related...

poor shooting/shot selection, transition defense

what could skiles do that would make that team play better?? he could draw up the perfect schemes but when the players aren't executing, it makes no difference

LOL the team's fg% is 39. that's ridiculous

the way Thabo is playing, he doesn't deserve more PT

what exactly is wrong with the player rotations?

[TheMC5]

what exactly is wrong with the player rotations?

I can't remember which game it was, but I saw Tyrus Thomas out there at center. Center!

[J J]

Why not? So they decided to go small, what's wrong with that?

[---]

what could skiles do that would make that team play better??

Honestly, right now, step down.

His player rotations are pathetic. He starts Adrian Griffin and has Jason fucking Gardner play as one of the first guards off the bench - and while we have no rebounding and inside presence, he feels that the smart thing to do would be sit Tyrus for the entire first half. Kirk Hinrich needs to be benched alot more often. I don't care if he's in a slump, I don't want him on the floor. He thinks that a 3-1 fastbreak is the oppurtune time to take a jumpshot and break out of the slump - he's not playing team basketball. Start Thabo, Duhon, I don't care. I'd take both those guys over Kirk right now. Maybe Kirk can come off the bench, get into a rythm and be that scoring guard we need off the bench. If he turns back to his old self, he can start again and Thabo would have earned plenty of experience.

When Kobe isn't aggresive and the Lakers are looking downright terrible in the first half, you don't bring on your 15th man and continue to sit the one guy other than Ben Gordon who has done anything this season - you get the best lineup out on the floor and crush them to ensure you don't lose by 30 when the Lakers wake up in the second half.

From what I can see, Skiles is only holding this team back.

[Andrew]

I can't remember which game it was, but I saw Tyrus Thomas out there at center. Center!

He did that during the Suns game and it was actually working out. It's an interesting lineup if they choose to go small, though obviously it's not a lineup to go with unless the situation favours it.

hmm yal still laughin?

Tyson Chandler is playing better than Ben Wallace, unfortunate but true. However, I still believe that has a lot to do with a change of scene and coaches so it's likely he wouldn't be playing that well if he were still a Bull. The other reason trading Ben Wallace isn't a feasible option - even if it's an appealing thought - is that he's not really tradeable due to his age, contract size and limited offensive game. Trading him is much easier said than done.

I suppose there’s some comfort in the thought that this year’s start is on the same pace as last year’s 3-9 start which ultimately didn’t prevent them from making the Playoffs and pushing 50 wins, though that’s little reason for celebration since a slow start – especially one like this – isn’t really acceptable for a team wishing to establish itself as a legitimate championship contender.

I watched the Phoenix game and one thing that stood out apart from the shooting woes was the ball movement, or lack thereof. They’re not a selfish team but they don’t take advantage of penetrate-and-dish opportunities which is what a perimeter team needs to do; they don’t have a Steve Nash, Jason Kidd or Allen Iverson to make things happen in that regard but I do believe the personnel they have are capable of doing it more often.

There seems to be a lot of sloppy passes and bad decisions being made, even by Hinrich who is a fine player I hope remains in a Bulls uniform, but is worrying for a starting point guard. I’d like to see Deng post up a bit more, too. Gordon’s shooting has been shaky save for the last few games where it’s been fairly respectable for someone expected to take at least around 15 shots per game but by the numbers he’s been their most consistent offensive player (which admittedly isn’t saying much).

A point raised by Doug Collins during the Suns game that I found interesting was Ben Wallace’s passion and intensity. Perhaps it isn’t a fair assessment given he’s in a different system to the one in Detroit and he’s not only growing older but sitting out long stretches too, but for $15 million per season his impact has been a bit underwhelming. Sometimes I do wonder if his heart is still with the Pistons or that he believes he’s already earned what he’s being paid. It’s a bit disheartening to see them paying all that money for a player who’s not living up to the hype while they’re trying to shortchange Deng and Gordon.

It’s too early to write this team off but it’s frustrating and disappointing to see them suffer the same shortcomings year after year, especially since there’s five core players who have been together for a few years now. Obviously they face a somewhat daunting obstacle in their lack of a post scorer but I believe they have the tools to compensate for that better than they are right now (the drive-and-dish game, for example) and ultimately win games, but it’s not happening.

One wonders whether it’s the offense and if so, whether Skiles is beginning to hold them back, as Shannon suggested. I know, I know, it’s too easy to blame the coach and Skiles has improved a bit when it comes to his rotations and benching players like Gordon when they should be out on the floor, though he’s still making the same errors here and there (going away from lineups that are working, leaving players out of the game too long) that I have to wonder – as always – if he’s the guy that can get it done on the sidelines in the long run. With players like Tyson Chandler producing elsewhere, I can't help but wonder if Skiles is too stubborn to get the most of out of his players. Of course, the players have to accept responsibility for the struggles too. Again, it's very easy to blame the coach when things aren't going well.

In any case, I hope they turn it around soon.

[The X]

although I thought signing Wallace & trading Chandler was always a bad move, on the topic of Wallace, he has to have his head in the game at all times & be going at 100% at all times on court....if not, his benchwarmer....but that was always the case for Ben in his career....he's not a super athlete like he was earlier in his career, so he's got to use smarts....I think until a coach believes in him again, we won't see the vintage Big Ben....

[TheMC5]

Personally, I think the Bulls should move Ben Gordon back to the 6th man role, and start Wallace-Joe Smith-Nocioni-Deng-Hinrich. That way they make up somewhat for their lack of size, and then you can try to get Deng in post-up opportunities against smaller SG's, and therefore hopefully get some easy baskets. I know Skiles was talking about trying to get Deng matched up in the post against smaller guys in the pre-season, but I've yet to see that implemented this year. Either that, or they need to start playing like Golden State and Atlanta, 2 other teams full of 6'7" - 6'9" guys, and push the ball up court quickly, take the first available shot, and get the hell back on D. If you can't play from the inside out, it becomes really difficult to utilize a methodical, slow-down type offense.

[benji]

The problem is that the Bulls young guys are not improving in terms of changing their game to become great players, this season they are all hitting their likely peak in shooting percentage, otherwise they are the same players they were two years ago for the most part. If the Bulls players do not improve, and because Wallace is slowly becoming less useful, the Bulls do have to try and win now because this is not a team built to develop over the long term and they have little room to make moves. (I am assuming they MAX or near-max out both Gordon and Deng.)

If those shooting percentages revert to career averages (51% Deng, 53% Gordon, 51% Hinrich) then the players have barely improved anywhere else offensively.

Yes, I cut out my fanatical desire for the Deng/Thomas/Brown/Picks for Gasol trade Simmons made up.

I updated the chart I posted back then to include this year:
Deng 04/05: 17pts 8rebs 3asts .496ts 13.9asr 12.2to 21.1usg 10.8reb
Deng 06/07: 20pts 8rebs 2.5asts .566ts 10.8asr 9.0to 20.1usg 10.8reb
Deng 07/08: 17pts 7rebs 2asts .484ts 8.6asr 11.9to 20.6usg 9.6reb

Duhon 04/05: 9pts 4rebs 7asts .471ts 34.8asr 11.5to 17.3usg 5.5reb
Duhon 06/07: 12pts 4rebs 7asts .544ts 34.2asr 10.8to 14.9usg 5.3reb
Duhon 07/08: 10pts 3rebs 7asts .426ts 34.2asr 10.8to 16.0usg 4.2reb

Gordon 04/05: 25pts 4rebs 3asts .526ts 10.8asr 12.2to 27.5usg 6.0reb
Gordon 06/07: 26.5pts 4rebs 4.5asts .573ts 14.4asr 12.2to 27.9usg 5.6reb
Gordon 07/08: 20pts 5rebs 3asts .479ts 10.2asr 11.1to 24.5usg 6.5reb

Hinrich 04/05: 17pts 4rebs 7asts .495ts 26.2asr 9.3to 24.8usg 6.1reb
Hinrich 06/07: 18pts 4rebs 7asts .555ts 27.3asr 10.0to 20.4usg 5.5reb
Hinrich 07/08: 14pts 4rebs 7.5asts .414ts 25.7asr 15.0to 23.4usg 5.9reb

Shooting percentages all have fallen below career averages by pretty much the distance they were above them last year.

I don't know if this team can recover, especially with the Gordon/Deng contract crap.

Losing Deng hurts, but you're replacing him and Brown with Gasol. If these guys aren't developing into stars and their big "third-year jump" was the shooting percentage (and it's not just a random change as shooting percentage flux often is) then this team will definately not be good enough to win while Wallace is still useful.
...
...Betting on a terrible offense and great (but not the runaway best) defense isn't the smartest idea.

Title teams are great on BOTH ends. (Even the suprise Heat of last year were top ten on both offense and defense.) The Bulls are only great on one end...

The Bulls last year were able to finish 20th on offense, 1st on defense. The year before they were 22nd and 6th. Now, they're 30th and 14th. New Jersey is outscoring them by 2.5 points. The 20th ranked team is outscoring them by 12 points. The Bulls had a 2.5 point lead on the last place team last year.

Joe Smith has improved their frontcourt offense ever so slightly, but he and Nocioni are the only players shooting over 50%. Wallace and Thomas have both being doing worse.

Sure, it's ten games, but the criticism I have of this team is still unchanged. They do not have any stars, Deng and Gordon still don't look like they'll develop into them. ("As of this moment, Gordon and Deng's celings look more like Rashard Lewis and Pedja Stojakovic (overall level, not style) than Jordan and Pippen.") And now they are as likely to lose at least one of them than to retain both for a good price. If these guys have peaked and are dependent on shooting percentage fluctuations, the Bulls are in a terrible position. The Wallace-Chandler deal continues to be a terrible botch. (You trade Chandler for PJ Brown, never use his contract in a trade, waive JR Smith, and then spend the savings on Wallace? Turrible all around.)

If someone wants to criticize my past Gasol desire based on this year. Yeah, Gasol isn't scoring as much this year per game, he's sharing the ball more. 15% drop in possessions, shooting percentage and turnover rate unchanged.

[air gordon]

what could skiles do that would make that team play better??

Honestly, right now, step down.

His player rotations are pathetic. He starts Adrian Griffin and has Jason fucking Gardner play as one of the first guards off the bench - and while we have no rebounding and inside presence, he feels that the smart thing to do would be sit Tyrus for the entire first half. Kirk Hinrich needs to be benched alot more often. I don't care if he's in a slump, I don't want him on the floor. He thinks that a 3-1 fastbreak is the oppurtune time to take a jumpshot and break out of the slump - he's not playing team basketball. Start Thabo, Duhon, I don't care. I'd take both those guys over Kirk right now. Maybe Kirk can come off the bench, get into a rythm and be that scoring guard we need off the bench. If he turns back to his old self, he can start again and Thabo would have earned plenty of experience.

When Kobe isn't aggresive and the Lakers are looking downright terrible in the first half, you don't bring on your 15th man and continue to sit the one guy other than Ben Gordon who has done anything this season - you get the best lineup out on the floor and crush them to ensure you don't lose by 30 when the Lakers wake up in the second half.

From what I can see, Skiles is only holding this team back.

griffin was only starting because of luol dengs injury. he wasnt getting a lot of pt when he got his starting gig anyway. gardner is one of the few players who actually is playing aggressive/confident. i have no problems with him out there

Thomas was grabbing pine because he wasn't hustling out there. this isn't the first time that thomas practice habits/attitude is being questioned (which is killer because it seems like every time i check the Portland box score, Aldridge has 20/10). i don't know man- Skiles will bench Wallace for wearing a headband, surely he won't overlook Thomas not huslting

HInrich is sucking ass, i def agree. what can you do? you keep duhon & thabo out there against starter quality players- it will be the toronto game all over again. how can Kirk be the "scoring" off the bench when he can't make a shot. LOL

you want to blame skiles, that fine

but you should consider that their entire starting lineup is under peforming!! it's impossible for a team to overcome that. coaching/substitution patters has nothing to do with the team shooting like it has a blindfold on, or the players playing with no confidence, i don't care if you're larry brown or Red Auerbach. you're not going to win with that
happening

when a team is losing like the bulls, you point the finger at everyone, not just one guy.

the bulls are playing the knicks. they have to win this game

[---]

what could skiles do that would make that team play better??

Honestly, right now, step down.

His player rotations are pathetic. He starts Adrian Griffin and has Jason fucking Gardner play as one of the first guards off the bench - and while we have no rebounding and inside presence, he feels that the smart thing to do would be sit Tyrus for the entire first half. Kirk Hinrich needs to be benched alot more often. I don't care if he's in a slump, I don't want him on the floor. He thinks that a 3-1 fastbreak is the oppurtune time to take a jumpshot and break out of the slump - he's not playing team basketball. Start Thabo, Duhon, I don't care. I'd take both those guys over Kirk right now. Maybe Kirk can come off the bench, get into a rythm and be that scoring guard we need off the bench. If he turns back to his old self, he can start again and Thabo would have earned plenty of experience.

When Kobe isn't aggresive and the Lakers are looking downright terrible in the first half, you don't bring on your 15th man and continue to sit the one guy other than Ben Gordon who has done anything this season - you get the best lineup out on the floor and crush them to ensure you don't lose by 30 when the Lakers wake up in the second half.

From what I can see, Skiles is only holding this team back.

griffin was only starting because of luol dengs injury. he wasnt getting a lot of pt when he got his starting gig anyway. gardner is one of the few players who actually is playing aggressive/confident. i have no problems with him out there

Thomas was grabbing pine because he wasn't hustling out there. this isn't the first time that thomas practice habits/attitude is being questioned (which is killer because it seems like every time i check the Portland box score, Aldridge has 20/10). i don't know man- Skiles will bench Wallace for wearing a headband, surely he won't overlook Thomas not huslting

HInrich is sucking ass, i def agree. what can you do? you keep duhon & thabo out there against starter quality players- it will be the toronto game all over again. how can Kirk be the "scoring" off the bench when he can't make a shot. LOL

you want to blame skiles, that fine

but you should consider that their entire starting lineup is under peforming!! it's impossible for a team to overcome that. coaching/substitution patters has nothing to do with the team shooting like it has a blindfold on, or the players playing with no confidence, i don't care if you're larry brown or Red Auerbach. you're not going to win with that
happening

when a team is losing like the bulls, you point the finger at everyone, not just one guy.

the bulls are playing the knicks. they have to win this game

Yeah I overreacted. A couple hours later I was on RealGM and was one of the only people anti-Fire Skiles. Emotions.

But still - Skiles has not done well with the little he has to work with so far. Things like benching Tyrus for long periods of time for not hustling (despite being arguably the best player on the team thus far), yet keeping Ben Wallace playing 35 minutes as he walked up and down the court while being more interested in his hair than his defence and rebounding. Classic case of Vet-love.

And yes, I would start Duhon over Kirk at this point. He needs a jolt to wake him up, and Duhon has simply played better. Kirk's used these games as a shootaround so he can get in rythm. He hasn't done much defensively either. Though things seem to be evening out now (Duhon looking worse, Kirk looking slightly better).

I can't really comment on the loss to the Knicks yet since I haven't seen the game. I'm gonna watch it now.

[J J]

Zach Randolph > Bulls. NOONE CAN STOP HIM

[Dan's Brain]

Another long-awaited win, keeping their win streak over Atlanta alive. But they still shot on the wrong side of 40%.

[Andrew]

Finally some good news, even if it is just one game. They're fortunate that there's only a couple of teams in the East that are ahead of the pack; only seven Eastern teams are .500 or better and only five of those are at least one game over .500. Much like last year's disappointing start, they don't have too much ground to make up since they're just 3 games behind the 8th seed. It's something, I guess.

There's three Bulls games on Foxtel in December: Lakers on the 19th, Celtics on the 22nd and Spurs on the 27th.

[Dan's Brain]

December's usually a good time to be a Bulls' fan. Let's hope the trend continues.

[Andrew]

If they've lifted their game by that point then those games might not be so painful to watch, even if the odds are heavily against them (particularly the latter two). Regardless, I'll be watching.

[Indy]

Living in Chicago, I have to read the Chicago newspapers. I am getting really, really sick of seeing Joakim Noah quotes and articles about him. I find him somewhat fascinating though.

Here is a rookie that is the 10th man, yet still gets tons and tons of press in a huge market like Chicago.