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Right & Wrong

Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:42 pm

Hello all, I was wondering your opinions on the subject of morality.

:arrow: Do you think that right and wrong (morality) is subjective, and relative? If everyone is doing it, does that make it right? And if no one is doing it, does that make it wrong?

And if nobody sees you doing something hateful, and you aren't caught, were you still wrong? Is the only thing wrong getting caught? :lol:

If society taught us that [any hating act] was right, would it be right? And if society taught us that [any loving act] was wrong, would it be wrong? Why/why not?

:arrow: Here's a good question: What if Hitler had won World War 2, taken over the world, and brainwashed everybody on earth into believing it was right to murder innocent Jewish men, women, and children. Would that belief then be "right," or would everyone on earth be "wrong"?

:arrow: Or is it absolute? Are there laws that are above the laws, ones that governments and nations and all people regardless of anything should follow?

:arrow: Or is it situational? Is there a time when killing innocent people is OK, stealing is OK, raping is OK, etc. What about wartime? Is that an exception, or has everyone just been taught to believe it's normal and OK? That's a tough one for me, because it sure seems that there are times when war must be waged, like during the Holocaust in WWII.

What do you all think :?: :?: :?:

Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:22 am

This debate sounds awfulfully a lot like sociology class.

My take is anything hateful , regardless of whether you got caught or not , is still wrong. Going to a synogoge and spraying racial epithets is wrong , even though you may not get caught. You may think it's right but if you do you have incorrect beliefs.

My belief is that morality is absolute. By no means is rape acceptable. By no means is stealing acceptable unless you're Jean Valjean and need to steal to feed your family. But if you're a rich kid and you "steal" potato chips and drinks from the cafeteria just because you like the thrill of it , then that is obviously wrong. Obviously killing innocent people is never ok. In wartime you kill the enemy soldier but you don't go into an enemy town and start shooting up civilians , that is uncivil war.

Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:26 am

The idea of something being wrong is a man made invention, thus naturally nothing is wrong, and nothing is right.

Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:40 am

Right and wrong is relative. It's different for every person, race, culture.

I consider something wrong when it involves harming others.
Harming oneself is different, if person wants to kill himself, let him be as long as it doesn't involve harming others.

The only thing absolute I know of for now is death. Everybody dies.
Even Jesus Christ died.

Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:12 am

If there are no follow up questions.. Yes.. Yes it is.

Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:25 am

By no means is stealing acceptable unless you're Jean Valjean


:shock: Scary school reference there, don't do that please :P

Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:38 am

I have always had an issue with what is wrong and right. Someone posted that they think something is wrong when it involves hurting someone but on the other hand is it wrong to hurt someone in order for him not a kill a group of people (1 person for lets say a 100)? Its wierd to me how this world is. I can doubt alotta things around me: this body, the organs in it (have you ever seen your own kidney? is it there?) As far as absolutes go, I dont know what exactly dies (mind/body/both) and which is more relevant, to me this body is just a capsule to carry that piece of junk I call a mind. Who knows where my mind goes whe I die, hopefully somewhere with hot chicks and booze.

Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:17 am

Well, morality is so critical because it's what separates humans from everything else on earth. Animals act based on survival of themselves or their pack/pride/group/etc, whereas sometimes humans will give up their lives for causes, for the notion of something being so right that it's "worth dying for."

Jae wrote:The idea of something being wrong is a man made invention, thus naturally nothing is wrong, and nothing is right.
This is a good arguement here, but it doesn't make sense to me that humans would invent something that holds them accountable for their actions & responsible for acting a certain way. It goes against the part of our nature that wants us to be #1, it binds us in a sense.

shadowgrin wrote:Right and wrong is relative. It's different for every person, race, culture.
For the most part, it has been, but there are some things that have always been (percieved) wrong, and always will be I believe. Like being a coward in war and running from your mates in battle- both sides in the fight regard you as scum :lol:

I agree with ixcuincle...

And another question is, if morality is absolute, where do we get the laws from? Society's been using the Bible for awhile...that's the one that I use when I want to clear up what's right & wrong...

Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:44 am

This is a good arguement here, but it doesn't make sense to me that humans would invent something that holds them accountable for their actions & responsible for acting a certain way. It goes against the part of our nature that wants us to be #1, it binds us in a sense.


True it doesn't make sense, but when you think about it morals and guidelines have completely changed over time. These days various things are alot more generally acceptable then they were in say biblical times. I have no idea why or how they came to be in the first place, I'm not sure anyone does, but these days it is completely man-manipulated.

Thu Dec 29, 2005 4:55 am

Yeah, I see what you're saying. If the stuff that's on TV now were to be played 50 years ago, there'd be people screaming bloody murder and production crews in the slammer :lol:

But I wouldn't say morals and guidelines are completely man-manipulated. Humans have always had this notion of how they "ought" to be acting, something they measured against how they were acting and even how they were told by society they should be acting.

There are clues that tell us that something isn't right here- hatred, harm, destruction, etc. have just about always been regarded as wrong. So if something happening leads to these things, then it follows that that something must be wrong. Or so people think.

Take slavery for instance. It has been abolished and people are becoming more tolerant of each other nowadays. So you could say humanity is "better" (closer to the right way) in that way.

If there was no measure of right and wrong, though, what reason would there been to abolish it? Slavery made the South economically prosperous and self-sufficient. The system kept millions of people fed. If the point of life is to survive and thrive, then the South was doing great. Unless it was deemed more important to uphold a moral standard, or to wipe out a system that created things that were deemed "wrong" (hate, harm, destruction), it wouldn't have happened.

Now you could say, "OK, say it didn't happen. Everyone would have just accepted it and life goes on." But just because abolishment of slavery wouldn't have happened doesn't mean it shouldn't have happened.

I'm just saying that humans can move in whatever direction they want, and manipulate the laws that govern them all they want, but that doesn't eliminate the possiblity that they ALL could be in the wrong, or right.

The way I look at it, if Hitler would have taken over the world, and brainwashed everyone into thinking that hating & killings the Jews (among others) was OK, then EVERYONE would have been wrong.

I wish I could say something that wasn't just an opinion. I'm not sure if you can prove a higher governing standard exists for everyone. But I know that without humans having a regard for it, however demented it gets at times, there would be chaos everywhere.

Thu Dec 29, 2005 5:06 am

Right=Riot, George W. Bush, America
Wrong=Everyone who opposes these 3 things

Thu Dec 29, 2005 5:10 am

Riot wrote:Right=Riot, George W. Bush, America
Wrong=Everyone who opposes these 3 things


....only Riot :roll:

Thu Dec 29, 2005 5:35 am

Riot wrote:Right=Riot, George W. Bush, America
Wrong=Everyone who opposes these 3 things


You forgot Kevin Garnett on the Right things :lol:

Thu Dec 29, 2005 6:16 am

Of course, Joe, but that's a given. :lol:

Re: Right & Wrong

Thu Dec 29, 2005 8:55 am

bullsfan009 wrote: :arrow: Here's a good question: What if Hitler had won World War 2, taken over the world, and brainwashed everybody on earth into believing it was right to murder innocent Jewish men, women, and children. Would that belief then be "right," or would everyone on earth be "wrong"?


They'd be right and wrong. In terms of the new society's beliefs they would be right but in terms of the values we've held for centuries and the ones we hold today they would be wrong.

Or is it situational? Is there a time when killing innocent people is OK, stealing is OK, raping is OK, etc. What about wartime? Is that an exception, or has everyone just been taught to believe it's normal and OK? That's a tough one for me, because it sure seems that there are times when war must be waged, like during the Holocaust in WWII.


It certainly can be. Warfare affords human beings the chance to forego the notion that killing another human being is wrong because of some noble cause. Basically, we humans can find loopholes in our own morality to suit our needs. But not everyone is willing to compromise those values since some will oppose war no matter how justified or unjustified a certain conflict may be.

Thu Dec 29, 2005 9:39 am

He has a point. If Hitler DID win the War his way would be "right", and this is really confusing, but hey, slavery use to be the "right" way waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy back in the day, but look at how it's now.. it ended and this is the right way, no more racism.

Thu Dec 29, 2005 9:50 am

Slavery is still part of the world. Maybe not for me & you, but it is.

Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:21 am

Well it was a mojor thing in the past and was considered right, but now its considered wrong.

Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:51 am

It all amounts on personal, and to extent, collective belief. Find out the source that triggers the belief and you have a moral compass.

Morals are only personal, in nature, and cannot be judges, explained or described under the prism of generalization. The vaunted 'Objective' truth, whether that refers to God, Good and Evil, Right or Wrong, is merely the result of the merging of the majority of 'Subjective' truths. In a few words, the "Truth" is manufactured by the individual truths of people who happen to share similar views and collaborate to preserve and protect them.

Thre is no pre-existent moral compass inside a newly born human being. His upbringing and personal experiences during the course of his/hers growing up will determine that person's moral fiber. Raise him/her in a paradise island, he/she'll be an innocent and a venerable saint. Raise him/her in prison, and he/she 'll be the scum of teh earth.

In my own opinion and strongly held belief, this is more of a blessing than a curse. We are not bound by insurmountable restraints, because we are born like blank sheets of paper. We, alone and ourselves have the greatest of powers bestowed upon us: The freedom to form our own values, and to separate ourselves from whatever we deem 'opposite' to our 'inner truth' . It is a very hard battle that has to be fought, though, as some 'generally accepted' truths are instilled upon us during times when our brain has not reached maturity and sovereignty as of yet, therefore making it hard to abolish them later on, when we get the gift of thinking for our own.


Summing it up, in my opinion, ofcourse, there are no pre-existent moral values that confine us and our actions/choices. We have the divine gift of actually having the chance to be what Nietzsche described as 'Overman', a being that has not only the capacity, but the mental toughness required to manufacture his own morals and ideals, and to stave off society's attempts to conform them into 'mainstream'.


Whether we will do anything with that gift, or leave it there , unrapped and collecting dust in the corner until all our precious time has run out, is OUR choice to make. And it's never too late to make our stand, as long as we actually make it.

Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:46 am

its kind of simple: There is no right or wrong until there are rules.

Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:52 am

^ Agree with everything D-Weaver wrote.

Great discussion, bullsfan (y)

What if Hitler had won World War 2, taken over the world, and brainwashed everybody on earth into believing it was right to murder innocent Jewish men, women, and children. Would that belief then be "right," or would everyone on earth be "wrong"?


Each person has a conscience that are formed by collective experience and in addition, derived from moral authorities (i.e. Bible, magistrates, parents) and if we're true to our conscience, as in obey it honestly without conning ourselves, we can easily see past Hitler's intentions. In fact, the majority of Nazi Germany's population was against Hitler's ideologies of Jewish genocide, but was controlled out of fear and propaganda. Even if Hitler ruled the world, there would no doubt be rebellion... unless that regime would succeed like the totalitarian state from Orwell's Nineteen-Eighty Four :|

Or is it absolute? Are there laws that are above the laws, ones that governments and nations and all people regardless of anything should follow?


Personally, I believe that when you combine every major religion in the world and pick out the ones that all have something in common, it makes up the universal truths. I see love, commitment, trust, and communication are all factors that make up a "good" human being, but paradoxically, those values can also really hurt people when they are lost, removed, or intended to harm. I believe that if they are all used in intentions that are meant not to harm, they can lead to fulfilling and enriching lives.

Or is it situational? Is there a time when killing innocent people is OK, stealing is OK, raping is OK, etc. What about wartime? Is that an exception, or has everyone just been taught to believe it's normal and OK? That's a tough one for me, because it sure seems that there are times when war must be waged, like during the Holocaust in WWII.


It's all subjective, but we can distinguish between killing or raping the innocent and stealing. For example, there's no valid logical reason why killing an innocent person or raping the innocent would benefit either person. Stealing, most of the time, is the loss of material goods, and if a poor person steals something for his health, then it's his will for survival. If somebody steals my iPod, I'll be pissed, but by no means it's physically, mentally, and psychologically damaging.

Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:53 am

hipn wrote:its kind of simple: There is no right or wrong until there are rules.


Rules don't make a right or a wrong. If the rule was, "Thou shall rape any woman into submission and death" could be "right" or "wrong" depending on the person.

Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:08 pm

What exactly was the Holocaust? I keep hearing references to the "Holocaust" but I have no idea what it was...

Is the Holocaust just where Hitler took all the Jews or something?

I'd google it but like I want a short summary

Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:11 pm

Well if there were no rules, this world would not have any humans living on it anymore. No rules on this planet peans death, that's why there are laws and people must follow them.

For example: Traffic lights, the right thign to do is to follow the laws ofthe traffic Lights, the wrong thing to do is not do what the rule says. If there were no lights, then people would think the right thing to do is just go without stopping, and you'd nd up dead.

Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:25 pm

Jugs wrote:What exactly was the Holocaust?


The Holocaust was a time during WWII where the Jews were systematically killed in death camps and worked to death in concentration camps by Nazis. Look up Auschwitz; it was a very dark and brutal time in Jewish history.

Well if there were no rules, this world would not have any humans living on it anymore. No rules on this planet peans death, that's why there are laws and people must follow them.

For example: Traffic lights, the right thign to do is to follow the laws ofthe traffic Lights, the wrong thing to do is not do what the rule says. If there were no lights, then people would think the right thing to do is just go without stopping, and you'd nd up dead.


Ah, those rules are the elementary kind of rules where there's a simple "yes" or "no" answer, but when you go into greater complexity, especially where it involves humans, it becomes more subjective.
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