Game of Thrones Thread (The Thread is Dark and Full of Spoilers)

[Lean]

The episode is literally too dark, 2/10 for me.

Thoughts on what the hell just happened? I thought it's either the army of the dead kills everyone on Winterfell, or they get defeated there.Arya da real MVP.

Do you guys think its too soon for the army of the dead to be defeated?

[Andrew]

'Nuff said.

Nah, I think the timing of their defeat is fine. Our heroes won the battle but suffered such heavy casualties, so the final War for The Iron Throne is going to be tough, and something they need to build back up to. With the supernatural menace out of the way, now it gets back to the heart of the series, The Game of Thrones. Cersei is the final boss now.

[Lean]

Yeah, I think it's fine, too. If the dead went on and sack Winterfell, and a lot more characters perished, who would be left to face Cersei?

I liked how they built up Jon to run up and make his way to the Godswood only for that twist to happen. And Arya's stab to the Night King is a callback too as far as I can remember.

[Andrew]

People complain about important characters surviving, but at this point, there isn't all that many of them left. At some point, having major characters survive until the final battle is a refreshing subversion of our expectations. And of course, some people are complaining that Lyanna Mormont was killed, so even when they do kill important characters, the fans aren't happy.

Ayra ended up saving Bran with the dagger that was going to be used to kill him, so that was poetic.

[Kevin]

The fucking plot armor on the main characters is unreal tho, makes it feel like a generic medieval sci-fi show. Don't tell me Sam survived the army of the undead by laying on a pile of dead bodies like a beached whale.

RIP to Lyanna the Giantslayer - mad fucking respect. You could hear her almost crying after getting yeeted by the giant but still fucking charged on like the badass she was. RIP to Ed the Virgin. RIP to Theon who had bigger balls than anyone this episode even without having one. He probably had one of the more complex arcs in the show. RIP to Jorah and basically House Mormont, their house is not a large one but is a proud one.

That scene with Tyrion and Sana. Thought they would kill each other because of their impending doom and the way they looked at each other and then... they left their hiding spot and I thought they were going to charge.... and then it turns out they just changed hiding spots LMAO.

Bran took a nap the whole episode - change my mind.

Wasn't expecting Arya to kill the NK at all. Well played by the writers even after having that "What do we say to the God of Death?" scene which now that I think about it, is very obvious so props to them.

Any theories on the upcoming episodes?

What if Jaime kills Cersei thus becoming the Queenslayer. Is that a low-hanging fruit?

[Andrew]

Strongly disagree on the "generic medieval sci-fi show" point. There are some characters that are damn lucky, but then, not many people complain about the villains who have practically been psychic in their ability to stay one step ahead of the more heroic characters, which I'd argue is just as contrived. It seems strange to complain about major characters surviving (when many haven't), while also believing that someone like Baelish could keep playing all sides and betraying everyone indefinitely without coming undone, and then masterfully faking his death when his comeuppance does come. That would be plot armour, too.

Yeah, I thought Sansa and Tyrion were getting ready to commit suicide there as well. That was a pretty good fakeout. There was a missed opportunity with the dead rising in the crypt, though. No Rickon, for instance (or did they burn his body?). I thought they might end up having to confront the wights of Starks passed, but in the end, generic zombies. A suspenseful enough scene, but I thought they might do a little more with the fact they were in there with dead Starks.

I don't know what to make of Bran. Was he just accepting his fate, or did he know? I can't help thinking that instead of fighting a big battle, they should've just let the Night King stroll through Winterfell while they all hid, and then ambushed him in Godswood when he reached Bran. I mean, we don't get the epic battle then, but since the goal was destroying him, that would've been the smarter plan with fewer casualties. Then again, I guess the point was that they were making the mistake of fighting a conventional battle against an unconventional enemy. In the end it was a trained assassin, not soldier, who got the job done.

If they're going with the prophecy or a poetic ending, it has to be either Jaime or Tyrion that finishes off Cersei. I can't help feeling that Bronn is going to take out one of them with the crossbow, and if I had to pick, I'd say Jamie is killed while Tyrion kills Cersei.

[Lean]

I've seen some complaints saying that "this is #Thrones, damn it, not Teletubbies" when it comes to characters surviving. I think we've seen enough deaths over the years already that we're used to it, and to say that the survival of most of the favorite characters is a twist in on itself.

My only real complaint about the episode is that it's very dark.

Then again, I guess the point was that they were making the mistake of fighting a conventional battle against an unconventional enemy.

The same person who compared yesterday's episode to Teletubbies said that the entire Winterfell setup is made up of "poor defense and strategy, that's why Jon Snow is the worst commander ever". Although to be fair, in all of the battles Jon led, they won in the most fortunate circumstances (Stannis arriving in Castle Black, the Knights of the Vale showing up last minute). All of the remaining characters which had combat experience didn't have recent victories, too, as pointed out on episode 2 last week.

Plus I added the thought that however prepared they are, they are going to overwhelmed by just how many undead there are.

Any theories on the upcoming episodes?

I guess Bronn won't pull the trigger on either Jamie or Tyrion. Jamie would probably kill Cersei, and Dany would turn on Jon at some point.

[Andrew]

Exactly, it's a twist when a character isn't killed. The other thing is that character deaths have to be meaningful, and not just for the sake of "anyone can die on Game of Thrones". It has to be plot-relative, otherwise it becomes violence for the sake of it and killing off characters for shock value, which I'd argue is what would actually make the show far more generic and uninspired. All men must die, but to lose characters randomly and not at a point where it makes the most sense and has the most impact from a narrative standpoint would be bad writing.

That's not to say the writing can't be criticised, but I do think people get upset when their predictions and pet theories don't come true, and decide that that constitutes bad writing.

The problem with the "worst commander ever" assertion - although Jon does have his faults - is that they are facing what appears to be a losing battle, against an unconventional (and supernatural) enemy. They don't even know if one of their best defenses - dragon fire - will work against the Night King, and it turns out that it didn't. The other thing is if they did have a brilliant plan that worked to perfection, people would be complaining that they're Boring Invincible Heroes. As you said, they were overwhelmed by sheer numbers if nothing else, and by an enemy that doesn't tire (and can be resurrected to boot).

As it stands, people were complaining how quickly the Night King was defeated. I mean, really? After eight seasons and plenty of victories for the Army of the Dead, and all the losses Jon and Dany's forces sustained with a few major and recurring characters being killed, it's too soon or too easy? Again, I feel like people had their own predictions and theories and are upset they didn't come to pass, so they're calling it bad writing (because it wasn't how they'd tell the story). Name a work of fiction, particularly a series, and you'll find those reactions.

The situation with Jon and Dany is going to be interesting. I don't think he wants the crown, even though he knows his true identity now. Whether or not that's true, and whether he can convince Dany if it isn't, remains to be seen.

[bigh0rt]

Give me Bron killing Jamie with the crossbow, and Arya wearing his face to kill Cersei pls. Give me more Arya. All the Arya.

I also was hoping to see a headless Ned Stark running around the crypts, but alas.

I've been conflicted on my thoughts since Sunday. There was a part of me that felt the whole build up of the Night King and the army of the dead felt ended too swiftly, but I'm also happy to be back to what I much more have enjoyed about the show for its duration -- the interactions and power struggles among the living. I do think that some of the mid-major characters who had story arcs seemingly wrap up on Episode 2 like Brienne, Tormund, Podrick, etc. could have been sacrificed in this battle, but maybe something better awaits their final confrontation at Kings Landing.

I understand some of the annoyance in the perennial shots of people like Jamie, Brienne, and especially Sam getting bombarded by wights to the point where death seemed both eminent and obvious, only to have them escape, though. If you want to have Sam survive, that's fine; just go have him hide in the crypts. I imagine there's a good chunk of characters who ultimately survive everything, and we get resolution for, with various titles within the 7 realms with whoever ends up sitting on the Iron Throne.

People also have to accept that as we head towards the ultimate resolution, whatever it is, your hands get tied in ways that they otherwise don't during the run of a show. You can kill off major characters in Seasons 1 and 2, and still have 5 more seasons to introduce and develop and get viewers interested in new ones. During the Red Wedding we, the viewers, believe that Robb Stark is a major character, when, in reality, he isn't, and never was. It's too late in the game for swerves like that at this point -- they'd most likely be nonsensical and for shock value. Those left are important (I hope). We've got like 4 hours left, and it can't just be Cersei, Daenerys, Jon, and Tyrion. I like to think that the survivors will serve a purpose in the penultimate episodes.

I'm cautiously optimistic about the remaining 3 episodes.

Also, Bran is the worst. I'm at the point where if he ends up being the 'key', I think I'll just be annoyed. Because he sucks. I wish Arya would've gotten the Night King after he slaughtered Bran.

[Andrew]

I was wondering if they'd have Catelyn Stark resurrected as a nod to Lady Stoneheart. Arguably a missed opportunity there.

[Lean]

Thoughts on yesterday's episode?

Some of the fast-travels put me off than it did in seasons 6 and 7 but give the episode count, I kinda understand why they did that. And they're really hinting at Daenerys going mad (but with reason) after Missandei was decapitated.

There was a cup of Starbucks on the Starks' table.

Could Daenerys have spotted Euron's fleet from above, though?

[Andrew]

It's funny. A lot of people will talk about plot armour protecting the heroes, but the villains are pretty invincible and infallible themselves. As noted, among his many talents, Euron has the ability to teleport himself and the Iron Fleet pretty much anywhere he desires. Bronn managed to get to Jamie and Tyrion pretty easily as well, not to mention reloaded a crossbow (a powerful but cumbersome weapon) very quickly. Just an observation about the different reactions to abilities and success. Again, I feel it comes down to predictions and pet theories.

The Starbucks cup was definitely a funny blooper. I imagine that'll be edited out in the home releases.

I think Jamie is going back to try to take out Cersei. It would throw out a lot of character development if he was going back to her because he's decided that he's done his duty, or that she's going to win and she might take him back. I doubt he trusts her after finding out what Bronn has been tasked with doing, so more likely it's a suicidal mission on his part. Loved the conversation between him and Tyrion though, that was some classic banter.

Jon is too honest for his own good, too trusting of others despite witnessing and suffering betrayals. Like Ned, he expects others to keep their word as he keeps his, and maybe that'll be his downful. Dany is definitely paranoid, and perhaps rightfully so. The execution of Missandei (see, characters survive so they can serve a greater purpose in the plot when they are killed!) will surely tip her over the edge. It's not going to end well between her and Jon, though that's likely going to come down to the machinations of the likes of Varys than an act of rebellion on Jon's part.

Can't wait for Episode 5. It does sound like it's going to be big, with strong hints at Dany being killed, going mad, or something along those lines. As the penultimate episode, it's basically going to be the Big Ninth Episode under the abbreviated format.

[Lean]

Arya and Hound riding away from Winterfell could also hint that they're going to King's Landing, too (I might have missed their dialogue about it).

Bronn managed to get to Jamie and Tyrion pretty easily as well, not to mention reloaded a crossbow (a powerful but cumbersome weapon) very quickly.

Felt like he treated it like a sawed-off shotgun and reloaded it like Arnold would in Terminator 2.

[Andrew]

Well, damn. A lot of people aren't happy and claiming they'll boycott the finale, "Fuck D&D!" and all that, but I'm intrigued to see how it ends. It has indeed come down to Ice and Fire.

[Lean]

I bet they'll still see it.

Personally, I liked it. Just not the way how I wanted Arya to do what she did in King's Landing (but then again, I think that's just the writers thwarting off theories of Arya actually killing Cersei).Now that Cersei's gone and that closing shot of Arya seeing the destruction Daenerys caused, she may have found her new target.

Again, I think what affected the show is that it's not referring to books anymore. Not saying it's bad because they probably still go to George R. R. Martin to consult, but the pacing is probably affected with the number of episodes HBO ordered, too.

I'm just happy we get to see this end, imagine this going on for five more seasons like Martin said recently.

[Kevin]

HBO ordered more episodes, its D&D who wanted a shorter one.

This episode was okay. I have to be honest, I was pro burn-Kings-Landing but after seeing people actually die and the possibility of people getting raped, I was off that train fast.

Arya this episode really just did a 10k fun run on kings landing although that was probably to set up another plot like what Lean said.

Not that bothered with the Hound and the Mountain's deaths since it was fitting. Thought we were having Oberyn 2.0 for a sec.

Cersei's death is very underwhelming, really. After the schemes she put up and all the vile things she did, she never answered to those crimes but I'm not that upset really.

[Andrew]

I like that Ayra's story in Episode 5 subverted expectations that she was going to succeed in assassinating Cersei. If she had, there'd probably be complaints about how she'd managed to finish off both Cersei and the Night King. I thought it was fitting that The Hound was able to talk her out of revenge for revenge's sake, referring to his own troubled life and an end that he likely knew was coming in some way. Except, Dany went berserk and unwittingly put the Hero of Winterfell in a traumatic situation. Now, she has a new target. It's not like it's the first time someone on her list was taken out by someone else, or that the list has been amended.

I'd have liked Cersei to meet a more fitting end, but then I suppose her last spot of hope was crushed (quite literally) with the only escape route having caved in. Yeah, Jamie was there with her, but it was far from a happy ending. After terrorising so many people for so long, she died in fear, her schemes ruined. She may not have been alone, but being crushed under the ruins of your own stronghold while you sob isn't exactly a dignified end. She was thwarted, which is what matters the most in the long run. Once again, she underestimated her opponent, fatally this time.

As for Jamie, it's kind of a shame that he rejected the redemption he earned, but in hindsight, him assassinating Cersei would've also been a bit contrived. At the end of the day, he loved Cersei, and all those things that he pointed out to Brienne, he really meant them. On one hand it looks like throwing out years of character development, but I do think that the point is that his devotion to Cersei is such an integral part of his character that while he did do good things, he did dishonourable ones as well. In the end, he couldn't change or run from who he was. That's the tragedy of his character and his overall arc.

I know a lot of Dany fans are up in arms, but it's not like these tendencies or the possibility that she'd turn into what she vowed never to be haven't been hinted at before. She's got the Iron Throne now, but we'll see how long that lasts.

[bigh0rt]

Loved the episode. Loved it. Fantastic. I see where the criticism is coming from, but I could not disagree more. Thought it was masterful, both on its own, and within the context of the series.

[Andrew]

I think this post over on Reddit sums up Dany's descent quite well: https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/ ... and_danys/

[Lean]

Yeah, that's what I told my brother about, Dany responses over the years were almost always extreme.

[debiler]

While I did like the idea of Dany becoming the Mad Queen after all, I think it could've been handled a lot better. The turning point was just not believable to me. What exactly was it that pushed her over the edge? In past episodes, there were many instances where we got a glimpse of her underlying madness. But at the precise moment when she finally snapped, it neither made sense nor was it understandable or relatable from an emotional point of view. There was total serenity, the battle was over. For example, if her other dragon had survived until that point and gotten killed - even by a freak accident or mere chance - when it all seemed to be finally over, I could have bought the twist. As it was, she was just going crazy because the story needed her to. I'm not mad about it, but I think it could have easily been done in a more convincing and satisfying fashion.

[shadowgrin]

HBO ordered more episodes, its D&D who wanted a shorter one.

Hate them or love them D&D are the only two guys capable of producing GOT in such a scale that understands the scope of GRRM's vision.
They or HBO could have easily passed it on to other producers to continue the series but no one wants it, it's no secret in Hollywood that making GOT episodes season after season is harder than your usual movie or tv production.

I can't help thinking that instead of fighting a big battle, they should've just let the Night King stroll through Winterfell while they all hid, and then ambushed him in Godswood when he reached Bran. I mean, we don't get the epic battle then, but since the goal was destroying him, that would've been the smarter plan with fewer casualties

Nope, everyone in Winterfell would die faster if they did that plan.
Hide or not the Night King would still send waves of undead before he shows up so he'll have more dead people to add to his army, he's pretty consistent with that strategy - Hardhome, last season when Viserion died, and see how he raised more dead instead of having a 1v1 with Jon. Opening up the gates would only let the undead army in and kill everyone even before the Night King showed up.
They did well in holding up as long as they can in forcing the Night King to appear sooner rather than later when everyone except Bran is dead.

[Lean]

Thoughts on the finale?

I liked how none of my predictions were wrong, and I also liked how Jon didn't get a happy ending. I see people online still thrashing the show, but if HBO split this season by their arcs (let's say season 8 be just about the battle with the Night King and season 9 would be the battle for the Iron Throne), it'll still end the same way.

Tyrion served as Hand three times, and his current one is with his friends.

That shot of Drogon spreading his wings behind Daenerys will be my new wallpaper, that's for sure.

[bigh0rt]

I thoroughly enjoyed the episode until the time jump, for sure. The early portion was fantastic. I can't believe we skipped over the fallout over Jon Snow assassinating the Queen, though. No Greyworm freaking out, apprehending him, etc.? It's one of the biggest events in show history, and we just fast forwarded to weeks later.

Overall, the rest I felt was meh. I can't say what I would have rather happened, but Bran was such a lame character for the duration of the entire series, it's tough not to be let down by his appointment of king. Sansa's ending felt right, but Arya's felt lazy and left much to be desired. I'm content with Jon's ultimate conclusion, as well, though it does feel cheap that him being the rightful heir to the throne ultimately became a non-story and non-factor (he didn't kill Dany because he was the heir; he would've done it regardless because Tyrion convinced him he had the choice to do what was 'right'), much like the Night King and Army of the Dead ultimately felt unimportant when push came to shove.

Why does Bran need a Master of Whispers? Why not have him sit at that table and start telling them all what he sees going forward, and what they need to do in anticipation to address these forthcoming issues? There was opportunity to have take a small peak into the fallout of all that has happened in the final 6 episodes, and fill the viewers in via Bran, but no.

I'm far less critical of the finale, and the season in general, than what much of the internet seems to be, but I feel there was a lot of opportunity left on the table, even if they wished to tell the story the same way they did without overhauling the plot. Still a great show overall.

[debiler]

I loved the finale. The way it was composed and shot, it really gave me a feeling of closure. It's all over now. Going into the final episode, I was a bit upset that Cersei didn't meet a fitting end at the gallows or by execution. But I'm really content now, because - and that's what the final episode was all about - does it really matter? She's dead. When she was still alive, all of her children died more or less because of her. She already got the ultimate punishment in life and didn't go on living to maybe redeem herself or feel some kind of remorse. She died the evil bitch she had always been, and that's how she will be remembered. And Jaime got the best death he could have hoped for, I think. He wouldn't have wanted to go on without Cersei. And ultimately, for all the things he did, he didn't really deserve to live out the rest of his days on the run with Cersei. So I think the end for those two was quite poetic and beautiful: While they died together, Cersei died in fear and Jaime died right where he wanted to - with her.

Kit Harington has come a long way, hasn't he? Or is it just that his solemn, sad looks finally fit his character? Anyway, I loved how conflicted he was, before, during and after his big scene. Ultimately, he was Ned Stark's son - duty and honor all the way. And that's why I really wasn't sure what he was gonna do when Daenerys proposed to build a better world together. Both Dany and Tyrion made great cases for themselves, and Jon ultimately had to decide the fate of the whole world right there. It was so well done that for a second, I really thought they might pull this off. Even though I was convinced beforehand that there could be only one outcome.

All the farewells were handled satisfyingly, I think. I'm really happy with the way they ended it. If there's anything I am kinda "meh" about, it's Bran becoming the new king. But that's not the finale's fault. It's just that I've been bored with Bran's story and his character since they fled Winterfell with Osha and Hodor.

Favorite scenes:
- Dany with dragon wings in the background. Awesome visual and sure to be on many posters and desktops.
- Drogon melting the iron throne. A wonderful symbol of what the future will hold for Westeros.
- Lords and ladies laughing at Sam's proposal. When he brought it up, I thought to myself "Oh, god. No! Don't ruin this!" So I was more than happy that they just waved it off the way they did.
- Seeing the small council operate once again. Life goes on, and all thanks to Jon Snow. Also, a nice way to bid farewell to some fan-favorite characters who seemed to be destined for either the ax or the shoehorn treatment in a final episode.
- Jon at the wall. I teared up.