2017 NBA Finals: Warriors vs. Cavs part 3

[Dee4Three]

Sorry, I have to show this video (If you don't like videos being posted, just don't watch).

Look at the pace, the speed, and athleticism of this game from 1988. The idea that Magic would be slow in any era.... is completely insane. To say he would be slow defensively, or defensively on high pick n rolls, is also crazy. He was amazing at sliding his feet, and quick. Also, Barkley was amazing.

phpBB [video]

[Sauru]

the celtics already did their part by not trading the number 1 pick. now its a matter of signing big name free agents which is not always easy for cold weather teams. also they really need to avoid giving thomas a max

So who should they go after? I think we've agreed they need a pf

Or is someone like Hayward a priority?

i think hayward becomes a priority because we can get him without losing anything at all. we also need someone who understand that rebounding is still part of basketball. i still want them to trade thomas so i would love to sign hayward and trade thomas for a big while drafting fultz

[NovU]

Look at the pace, the speed, and athleticism of this game

phpBB [video]

Speaking of 80s, I know that era to be of Run And Gun offense with everyone out running. Possessions per game was crazy. Ofc, we also had a nice conversation how Kobe would have averaged 3 to 4 points per game if he played in that era as there's avg of 10 more possessions to work with per game. But drastically things changed in 90s, the pace became super sluggish as if the game is played in mud field. Now days, it's in-between.

Can't say which era playing style was the best, but definitely a lot have 90s and 00s up there in their list in terms of entertaining values. Funnily that's when game was played at really slow pace.

[hova-]

Sorry, I have to show this video (If you don't like videos being posted, just don't watch).

Look at the pace, the speed, and athleticism of this game from 1988. The idea that Magic would be slow in any era.... is completely insane. To say he would be slow defensively, or defensively on high pick n rolls, is also crazy. He was amazing at sliding his feet, and quick. Also, Barkley was amazing.

First of all I don't finde the pace enormously speedy, but maybe that's just me. I also feel like the camera view back in the day makes the game look faster since the cameras seem to be a step later everytime

Apart from that, the video at least shows some signs of my suggestion:

the 76ers PG is a little small (white ) boy who once drives to the basket like he would be playing with me in the backyard - and yes, he gets blocked.

Magic does guard Barkley, so it is tough to say something about his perimetre as Barkley gets a lot of post touches and cuts. Cooper usually has the smaller opponent.

Magic quite often backs down his opponent. That is something I think he might still do today and would be successful with as he could find open three point shooters. That's part of his genius.

But in my opinion the 76ers really did not play that well and Barkley was the only one standing out.

[Dee4Three]

Sorry, I have to show this video (If you don't like videos being posted, just don't watch).

Look at the pace, the speed, and athleticism of this game from 1988. The idea that Magic would be slow in any era.... is completely insane. To say he would be slow defensively, or defensively on high pick n rolls, is also crazy. He was amazing at sliding his feet, and quick. Also, Barkley was amazing.

First of all I don't finde the pace enormously speedy, but maybe that's just me. I also feel like the camera view back in the day makes the game look faster since the cameras seem to be a step later everytime

Apart from that, the video at least shows some signs of my suggestion:

the 76ers PG is a little small (white ) boy who once drives to the basket like he would be playing with me in the backyard - and yes, he gets blocked.

Magic does guard Barkley, so it is tough to say something about his perimetre as Barkley gets a lot of post touches and cuts. Cooper usually has the smaller opponent.

Magic quite often backs down his opponent. That is something I think he might still do today and would be successful with as he could find open three point shooters. That's part of his genius.

But in my opinion the 76ers really did not play that well and Barkley was the only one standing out.

That little white PG is Scott Brooks, Hova. And he was a rookie. Scott Brooks was no smaller than some of the guards in todays game.. like some of the other... you know... white guards. Maurice Cheeks started for the team.

The 76ers didn't seem to play well, Hersey Hawkins hit some good shots, and of course Barkley played a solid game.

The camera view makes the game look faster? Stop. Just... stop.

Magic was quick enough to guard guards, but if the need be, he could guard bigger guys because of his length and strength, he could do both. It would be no different than in the NBA today if he played for a team like the Thunder, and was playing along a guy like Roberson, if it made sense that Magic would be on a bigger guy, and Roberson on a smaller guy, they would do it. Btw, I am not saying Roberson is a better defender than Magic Johnson.

[Dee4Three]

Because I posted a video, and you responded. The conversation is open again.

I DID say Magic might be too slow. He is a 6-9 PG which is just not common nowadays. He would have problems to get around screens (considering he would not be able to bang through the screen without getting called for a foul) and a step slow against smaller guards. Hell, he even had that problem in his prime but the Lakers had guys like Scott and Cooper to do the job.)

Is that what you think happened? You think back in the day the players "banged" through screens? Like, plowed through screens? You think that Magic Johnson, who was still quick laterally, with his length at 6'9", wouldn't be able to get around screens and also disrupt pick n rolls? Do you not understand that For every 2 steps a guy like Dennis Schroeder takes, that's one step for a guy like Magic Johnson? Are you forgetting that overall conditioning plays a huge factor in this, and that Magic played high minutes night in and night out, his condition was top tier and still would be now? You are being far to simple. Your only argument is still "There must be advancements", so I will ask again, do you think that all the HOF's knew how to work out, to how to take care of themselves, and all the other players were like "Fuck it, man... we don't know how or need to be in top shape to play in the national basketball association". Think about it.

I DID say Hakeem would be decent. And I guess I used the wrong adjective (sry, fucking german). I don't doubt Hakeem's skillset. He is one of the best ever. And he has the skill to do it today, although his style is not favored anymore. Especially the turnaround post jumper is the best weapon you can have in any era. He has it. But I ASSUME that his blocking numbers might be lower nowadays. The style has changed, more fouls, more floaters less hand check makes it tougher for the help defender not to foul IMHO.

You mention his turnaround like it's the only move he has, players jump at any hint of a fake in general now, do you have any idea how many players Olajuwon would put in the blender? He would literally be unstoppable. The play style would not stop Olajuwon, who was at peak conditioning than and would be now, from his effectiveness. Also note, Olajuwon was doubled ALL THE TIME, watch video, he was constantly doubled, with tons of length on him. And he still averaged close to 30 PPG, against titans in the middle. You think that if Olajuwon caught the ball 15 feet and in on Dwight Howard, Anthony Davis, freaking Zaza Pachulia, Al Horford, Marcin Gortat, Steven Adams, etc (Any NBA Big man or PF now) that he wouldn't just completely demolish them? You are not thinking. And, it's okay to admit when you are wrong.

I DID NOT MENTION David Robinson. He was a beast. The picture says it all. Same goes for some guys like Nate Thurmond. But when you go to baksetballreference and look at the weight of the players back then as well as view some pictures you will see that there very also many many untrained guys. It's my opinion that today there is a higher level of standard the teams require. It's a thesis though.

This is proven wrong. And again, you are completely wrong about the shape of the players in the 80's and 90's.

ABOUT BARKLEY AND MILLSAP: you did not read MY POINT. My point is that Barkley was specimen back then, whilst today his athleticism would be upper average (his prime maybe a bit better, his non prime days too fat I guess). That means the COMPETITION is harder. Not the STAR PLAYERS are worse, but the competition is harder.

No, you said "Well was Millsap a legend?", like they had the same skill. That's exactly what that means. His non prime days, fat, he was still doing damage (To the tone of almost 20 PPG and 15 RPG), and that's a fat short Barkley (in the late 90's). Barkley with his skillset and elite athleticism (Barkley is MUCH faster down the floor in his prime and younger years than Millsap), that he would dominate in the NBA today. You think because you say the players were more athletic, that the competition is harder? You think that athleticism trumps skill? That is not taking you out of context btw, you just said "That means the COMPETITION is harder", if the athleticism WAS better, athleticism doesn't touch skill! Have you seen the "Athletes" that come into the league and completely, 100% fail? Do you know how many high flyers and freak athletes just do nothing in the NBA? In any decade? You have no argument here at all. This is some of the craziest stuff I have ever heard.


In your comments (This is NOT taking you out of context), the competition is better because you think the now NBA has more athletes, which is saying being an athlete trumps skill (as with that statement, that's what you are saying), that Magic Johnson would have trouble with high pick n rolls because he couldn't plow through the screen (My head hurts), and that Olajuwon would be less of a factor because his style is not favored anymore, even though he was and still would be in peak condition, had a killer mid range game, the amazing turn around you speak of, and a flurry of other moves from mid-range and down low, while also being really strong, and was used to being doubled on almost every possession by bigger players with more length than now....

Hova, you need to expand your mind more. I am not being nostalgic, I am seeing things for what they are. I can go both ways, I know when I see talent in this league, and when players now would be good in any era, and why they would. Karl Malone was amazing in the mid 80's in the NBA, he was also still amazing in early 2000's, that is close to 20 years separated. Why? Because he was always in great shape (Gasp, even in the 80's), but he always had the SKILLS to be an amazing basketball player, he knew exactly how to use what he had. You know why Andre Miller, a PG who was considered slow and couldn't jump lasted so long in the NBA, even being a starter for a long time (Oh, hes also short), BECAUSE HE HAD THE SKILLS, he knew exactly how to use what he had. Skill trumps athleticism every day of the week. Can't you see that? Athleticism can help a player, but it doesn't make a player or a league. Even IF the NBA was more athletic now, who says it's more skilled?

Listen, I do think you are a good guy, but you are speaking complete nonsense in here and are making no sense.

[air gordon]

I have no clue how the refs call it/ which ref is specifically looking for those type of fouls on a given spot on a floor

Honestly on the live feed, I don't see the arm lock move. It's only on the replay it's evident

[Dee4Three]

I have no clue how the refs call it/ which ref is specifically looking for those type of fouls on a given spot on a floor

Honestly on the live feed, I don't see the arm lock move. It's only on the replay it's evident

It's probably the toughest thing to call... I almost feel like they have to base it off whether the player is in a natural shooting motion. Look at the way he releases some of those shots on drives, completely unnatural.

[NovU]

First of all I don't finde the pace enormously speedy, but maybe that's just me.

Me neither.


Between my vid and his, the defensive closeouts are much better in mine. Did 80s not learn from 90/00s, defense is good? Didn't Barkley's defenders not know they could contend his shot by raising their arms??? Kobe dealt with this greatly, goat.

Also compare the pass highlights between Wade and Magic. Which one requires better skill, body contortion, and athleticism? I think the answer is crystal 4k clear. Wade could have averaged 15 ast. Skillset matter.

[Dee4Three]

First of all I don't finde the pace enormously speedy, but maybe that's just me.

Me neither.


Between my vid and his, the defensive closeouts are much better in mine. Did 80s not learn from 90/00s, defense is good? Didn't Barkley's defenders not know they could contend his shot by raising their arms??? Kobe dealt with this greatly, goat.

Also compare the pass highlights between Wade and Magic. Which one requires better skill, body contortion, and athleticism? I think the answer is crystal 4k clear. Wade could have averaged 15 ast. Skillset matter.

Wade would be great in any era of basketball. There IS defense on these guys, I can also show you videos of Barkley scoring 50 on a lot of contested shots. I don't get your point here, I don't get what you are saying, Wade is and would be fantastic in any decade. Magic COMBINES speed and athleticism, and size WITH his skill. He is the total package.

NovU, are you contesting that Barkley wouldn't still get his and be a superstar in todays NBA? or Magic? Are you stating that Wade is an equal passer to Magic Johnson with the same court vision? Are you stating that Hakeem Olajuwon wouldn't be a SUPERSTAR in todays NBA? Are you just going to pick on the fact that im sharing videos, and ignore most everything else I say? The league being smaller now, with less big men inside, Magic Johnson's scoring average would go UP, with the lack of aggressive defense allowed on the perimeter and in the post (Because he was also good down low) would allow him to get into the lane MORE and make MORE plays. Wade in this NBA can't get high assists numbers, that's also not the way he plays or the role on the team.

Picking and choosing when to attack me, and being sarcastic only with me, when other crazy claims are being made, shows that you are just choosing to come at me.

[NovU]

Did u not see wut I just did there? That exactly the type of logic I have been dealing with.

[Dee4Three]

Did u not see wut I just did there? That exactly the type of logic I have been dealing with.

No, you made no point whatsoever.

[NovU]

I did. My vids showed. Thought you'd be able to tell since your eye test is better than anyone else's and watched 999999 of games. I can't understand why you don't see what I see.

[Dee4Three]

I did. My vids showed. Thought you'd be able to tell since your eye test is better than anyone else's and watched 999999 of games. I can't understand why you don't see what I see.

I don't see it, NovU. From watching Wade, I do not see that he is better at seeing behind the defense, that he can make said passes behind the defense, that he can find the open man more, that he is capable of throwing any pass with both hands, that he can throw pin point passes at full speed on a consistent basis, etc. I don't see that from watching Wade throughout his career in comparison to watching Magic.

You comparing Wade's passing to Magic Johnson's passing, shows me you have no idea what you are talking about. Also, Magic's length and height DOES help him, because he already has the skill, the athleticism is just a bonus. He has a huge size advantage on Wade to also go along with his tremendous skillset/IQ.

However, this could be the same thing you pulled in the other thread about Kobe, pretending that you felt Kobe was much superior skill wise to Jordan, and than coming back to agreeing with me that he is not.

So, I am cool with knowing that at the end of the day, you actually know that Magic Johnson, for all the reasons I stated above, is a better passer than Wade. So, I'll either just wait for you to admit it, or I'll just assume because you now have a proven track record of pulling that type of garbage.

So, I will say again.

NovU, are you contesting that Barkley wouldn't still get his and be a superstar in todays NBA? or Magic? Are you stating that Wade is an equal passer to Magic Johnson with the same court vision? Are you stating that Hakeem Olajuwon wouldn't be a SUPERSTAR in todays NBA? Are you just going to pick on the fact that im sharing videos, and ignore most everything else I say? The league being smaller now, with less big men inside, Magic Johnson's scoring average would go UP, with the lack of aggressive defense allowed on the perimeter and in the post (Because he was also good down low) would allow him to get into the lane MORE and make MORE plays. Wade in this NBA can't get high assists numbers, that's also not the way he plays or the role on the team.

Picking and choosing when to attack me, and being sarcastic only with me, when other crazy claims are being made, shows that you are just choosing to come at me.

Would you answer if you believe those things, or not?

[NovU]

Look at the pace, the speed, and athleticism of this game

This. This was your argument leading to why ex players can own young cats. And you are arguing against hova saying league's different now.

Examine your evidence(youtube vid) versus mine. I see better speed, athleticism, and pace, perhaps due to selective plays or playing style difference I dunno. Of all which aligns with hova's points.

We are also not only discussing whether or not Barkley/Magic would be successful but how players/game in general has evolved, which plays a big factor in how they'd fare in today's league anyways. You are not acknowledging what you see and what we see from your/my vids could be different. I agree to hova's assessment much more than yours. Your narratives are mostly based on bias and hypothetical assumptions that I didn't even need to bother addressing.

[Dee4Three]

Look at the pace, the speed, and athleticism of this game

This. This was your argument leading to why ex players can own young cats. And you are arguing against hova saying league's different now.

Examine your evidence(youtube vid) versus mine. I see better speed, athleticism, and pace, perhaps due to selective plays or playing style difference I dunno. Of all which aligns with hova's points.

We are also not only discussing whether or not Barkley/Magic would be successful but how players/game in general has evolved, which plays a big factor in how they'd fare in today's league anyways. You are not acknowledging what you see and what we see from your/my vids could be different. I agree to hova's assessment much more than yours. Your narratives are mostly based on bias and hypothetical assumptions that I didn't even need to bother addressing.

No, it was said that they would not be as dominate, also stating they were too slow for todays NBA. THAT is what is being discussed. There IS a fast pace, speed and athleticism shown in that video, NovU. Magic Johnson is 29-30 in this that video which is outside of his athletic prime, and he is moving fantastic. I think you misspoke. I think you meant "Keeping up with the players in the league now" in general. The contest was that they could not, in my videos I am showing that they are fit, conditioned, fast and athletic, and could keep up in todays NBA, that is 100% relevant. You stating you see better passing from Wade, is absolutely false, for all the reasons I mentioned above.

We are also not only discussing whether or not Barkley/Magic would be successful

This is EXACTLY what has been discussed, this is what started it. Stating that Larry and Magic wouldn't be as effective because they were too slow, that is exactly it. This is a complete lie. Not being as dominant is saying they would not be as successful. It's the same thing, that is what I am contesting. I am contesting THAT.

Answer those questions, please.

[NovU]

Your view is so narrow and brain is so fixated on protecting image of your idols that you forget to see anyone's irrefutable points.

This isn't only about stars in the your/my youtube video but also general defense/offense system, playing style, in game strategy, etc. hova brought up about all aspect of players/game being generally on another level. Barkley, Magic are extension to this discussion. Now go watch your vid carefully and all differences in each aspect of the game, not only whether they're sprinting or not, good grief. Cmon kid.

[Dee4Three]

Your view is so narrow and brain is so fixated on protecting image of your idols that you forget to see anyone's irrefutable points.

This isn't only about stars in the your/my youtube video but also general defense/offense system, playing style, in game strategy, etc. hova brought up about all aspect of players/game being generally on another level. Barkley, Magic are extension to this discussion. Now go watch your vid carefully and all differences in each aspect of the game, not only whether they're sprinting or not, good grief. Cmon kid.

I can see the full game, champ. Saying that Magic would be less successful in the now NBA, especially with all the rule changes, especially with his play style as it was, and saying he couldn't keep up (Clearly he could!), is the epitome of a narrow view. "The game has evolved athletically", "The spacing on the floor is different", those types of arguments do NOT stop great players, with amazing basketball skill and athletic ability, being as good or better. If anything, these players excelled in a more physical age of basketball, and would have a easier time scoring and making plays. An argument of "The players must be in better shape, conditioning, because of advancements in medicine" does not explain how someone can be extremely effective in the league for 15, 16, 17 years crossing decades, and still be able to do the same things. It also doesn't explain how the past top tier players are in phenomenal shape, and easily athletic enough to excel in the now NBA, but the rest of the league wasn't? Like the other players decided to just go "Not working out the same, nope, not going to try my best like those guys to be in great shape", can't explain that one, can you NovU. It's called cherry picking and arguing for the sake of arguing. I am not the one with a narrow mind, saying that I am "Protecting idols" is saying I am "Biased", which is a cop-out when a good argument cannot be had.

It's the same thing as the Dirk/Tolliver fiasco, it was mentioned that in 2017 the primed Dirk with all of his talent, would be used as a spot up shooter? You think that because the spacing seems to be better in the now NBA, that Magic Johnson would struggle more in that play style? Or that Barkley couldn't still dominate in the paint or from Mid-Range? I am not the one with the narrow view. I am not "protecting idols", I am combating statements that hold no ground and make no sense.

The best part of all this, you don't even believe your own contest. You are doing it for show and to come at me. I can guarantee you don't believe that Wade is a better passer, I guarantee you don't think most of what you are saying is true. You are just talking and contesting for the sake of doing so. I would protect Durant, Anthony Davis. Russell Westbrook the same way, they are CURRENT. The protecting idols statement is trash.

[air gordon]

Interesting hypothetical regarding earvin magic Johnson

How would magics skill set translate into this game??!

His greatness has been mentioned but what about lack of perimeter shooting and his defense?

How would he function in the half court?

Can you consistently run pick n roll with him? How does he can contribute when he doesn't have the ball?!

Its fair to say teams would dare him to shoot on picks and play off him for help side

[Dee4Three]

Interesting hypothetical regarding earvin magic Johnson

How would magics skill set translate into this game??!

His greatness has been mentioned but what about lack of perimeter shooting and his defense?

How would he function in the half court?

Can you consistently run pick n roll with him? How does he can contribute when he doesn't have the ball?!

Its fair to say teams would dare him to shoot on picks and play off him for help side

Great questions.

When Magic started taking more three's (88-89 to 95-96), he shot .314%, .384%, .320% and .379%. Before those years, he didn't even attempt one a game. So, my opinion is, if in this NBA it was asked of him to shoot three's, he would be an average three point shooter. So he was still a capable three-point shooter.

He shot a career .520% from the field, while yes on a lot of fastbreaks and drives. I don't see him being any worse (if anything, better) on fastbreaks or on drives, so I think it wouldn't matter. Magic attacking the hoop on guys in this league the same height, or 1 or 2 inches taller, instead of attacking the Hakeem's, Robinsons, Ewing's etc, I truly believe he would score more on drives over/around the defense.

Defensively I have already made my case, he was an elite defender before, I think he would be an elite defender now. In the case of a smaller guard was on him (quicker?) not counting Westbrook, it would be the same thing they do with Roberson now, and other teams do now, they would put someone else on him and Magic could guard other positions.

I think Magic would thrive in any pick n roll situation, because he can hit the 3 ball, and it's not like he wasn't capable of hitting the mid-range jumper. It's also not just jumpers, it's floaters in the lane, which he was a pro at. Let's also not forget his ability to post up guards of a smaller size, he did that a ton in 95-96. His court vision and ability to see over the defense would make him a threat at all times, in my opinion.

Air Gordon, what do you think?

I feel like I am always the one answering questions.

[air gordon]

I think magic would be an all star but I share the doubts he would reach the same heights as he did when played

If you take only the stats he was shooting 3's, magics 3pt% is incidentally similar to one lebron James. Also One of those seasons was with shorter 3pt line iirc. We'll give the hall a famer a break there

Also magics jumper is a standstill/flat footed. I'm trying to find his highlight reel of perimeter shots but a lot are just prayers at the end of a quarter. If he is limited to a spot up shooting and an "average" 3pt shot, it limits his upside in today's game

And I'm not trying to discount his his post up, fast break and passing skills. He would probably be best in a Tim Duncan like role free throw line extended waiting for a double.

[Dee4Three]

I don't think the stand still shot would hurt him (any more than it did in the past). Especially since his play style never was about going one on one outside of drives to the hoops and floaters over the defense. The mid-range game is a lost art now, anyway. As in, he would fit right in in todays game with the skillset he already had, not needing to add an amazing outside shot. I think he would do damage in the low post, possibly even more now, with the fact that you can't really have your hands on anybody. He had a hook in his repertoire that he could hit often, and he knew how to use his body. so I think that he would create matchup problems, and make some great passes out of the post.

Would you agree that Magic going to the hoop and being successful on the towers of the past, make you feel like he would have even more success going to the hoop on smaller PF's/Centers? As well as a 4 out offense (Which so many teams play), don't you think that would open up lanes for Magic where he would even have more looks at the basket? (being 6'9" and athletic). Do you also feel that the way the game is called, that his amazingly high free throw percentage would create problems in a touch foul league with him getting to the rim like that?

[air gordon]

As I said Earlier he would find more success as
a midrange post player

If he can't shoot off the dribble and has an "average" 3pt shot, The defense can defend him and the PNR much easier. I don't want to tear down a legend now. Only saying he has limited upside cuz in today's game if you are on the perimeter and you can't shoot and/or are not explosive to the basket, it plays into the defenses hands

But hey Rondo has had a helluva career

[Dee4Three]

As I said Earlier he would find more success as
a midrange post player

If he can't shoot off the dribble and has an "average" 3pt shot, The defense can defend him and the PNR much easier. I don't want to tear down a legend now. Only saying he has limited upside cuz in today's game if you are on the perimeter and you can't shoot and/or are not explosive to the basket, it plays into the defenses hands

But hey Rondo has had a helluva career

Rondo was also not 6'9" with those skills, and not even as good of a 3pt shooter, and we won't talk about free throws

If Rondo can average about 14 PPG with no mid range game, and being a horrible free throw shooter. Lets factor in Magic being 6'9", getting rebounds and being a one man fastbreak, points off of offensive rebounds, points off of free throws, post points, points up and over the defense on drives. Do you know how many that would add to his average? You can give him another 10-15 PPG right there (or more). But, what do I know?

Okay, I am cool with us agreeing to disagree on that. I feel that he would thrive even more, you feel he would still be a star, but not as big of one.

See, we can all get along. One big happy family.

[NovU]

So being simply bigger than Rondo would allow Magic to be able to average 30-35 points (or more) per game in today's league. But what do you know. That would make him a god over any legend, fuck off Jordumb and Wilt. That's the kind of things you are telling folks here to agree to.

Seriously I am not coming at you buddy. You are the one that keeps going off at people with 2x bigger absurdity like this one and you have audacity to claim they're NOT seeing it. Stop licking ex gen players' balls.

K, let's return to being one big happy family now.