NLSC Greatest of All-time: #6

-8th number of the many

-#5 was won by Kevin Garnett

-#6 will only have three voting options since other players don't come close

-You can vote for players in any way you want: On-court impact, Off-court impact, championships etc.

Nominees:

1. Julius Erving (1976-77 to 1986-87)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
23.1	7.0	4.0	.558	111	101	22.0	.178

* So it wasn't his prime. Playing in the NBA probably didn't hurt any players legacy as much as it did his. Erving was still doing thing on a level very few have done.

When you look prime offensive numbers, he was sort of like Tracy McGrady. Yep, that good. Except more efficient when you look at more than a couple of years. He was one of the top rebounding small forwards ever. Also a good distributer.

Defensively Dr.J is hugely underrated. He ranks somewhere between Pippen and Marion on defense. He also had almost 2 blocks and two steals per/36 in his prime. Yeah, sounds good.

Erving is one of the biggest basketball icons the game has ever seen, and will hopefully give LeBron and Russell a run for their money.

2. LeBron James (2010-11 to 2013-14)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
25.5	7.2	6.4	.622	120	101	29.6	.281

*Right after the stupidest media thing he decided to do (the decision), he made perhaps the best one overall, join his friends in Miami.

Now, looking at his stats just makes me laugh over and over again. How is being this good possible? Seriously? I know many people dislike him and that's okay, but his Heat day numbers are just insane. It looks someone falsified them.

You know what the best part is? His playoff numbers during that period are just as amazing. And that includes disappearing in some finals appearances. He's unfair.

People and the media try to discredit LeBron and pick certain flaws in his game, when the reality is he is probably the second greatest player ever to play in the three point era. He just led a dormat Cavs franchise to an NBA finals appearance where they currently LEAD the stacked Warriors.

Some people still hang on to Larry Bird as the greatest forward ever. He's really the only one even close. But no. People say Kobe is a "true winner". Has he done with the Cavs what LeBron did in his
first stint and now? Lead them to the Finals? You call LeBron a loser? Well Kobe lost in the finals too. And the numbers are not even close.

Let's get back to the topic. LeBron had only 4 seasons playing for the Heat. That is a fact that could seriously hurt him when people look at the longevity of Bill Russell. Can't wait for the results.

3. Bill Russell (1956-57 to 1968-69)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
12.8	19.1	3.6	.471	Nr	Nr	18.9	.193

* Whoa. Did those stats surprise you as they did me ? Granted, some stats weren't a part of the boxscore in his era, which does hurt him a lot. But can he still compete with LeBron?

Let's take a look at his defense. Forget about how many points Chamberlain dropped on him, it doesn't matter. Chamberlain is the greatest scorer ever and no one could contain him.

Did you know his Celtics finished 1st in the league in defense 11 times in a row since he joined them ? 12 times overall, with the one other number being second ? Is your faith in Russell returning now ?
Russell was an amazing defender. Simply amazing.

Rebounding. At his size, he was obviously the better rebounder than the gigantic and perhaps the best athlete in the history of pro sports, Wilt(check per 36). That helps him a lot.

Offensively he wasn't really good, and that hurts him. A LOT. LeBron was an elite on both ends, so was Erving. His best FG% season was .467 percent. Allen Iverson was more efficient than him. That hurts him.
A LOT.

The simple fact is, Russell played 13 seasons wearing the number 6. He won 2.75 titles for every season LeBron played in Miami. He won 3.67 titles for every title Erving won in the NBA & ABA.
He is the best defender of the era, the best rebounder of the era, and was obviously surrounded by just the players needed to defeat some greats like West, Baylor, Oscar and Wilt.

Don't underestimate greatness.

Other Notable Player Shoutout

Walter Davis Scored. And he was good at it. He has almost 20k career points and averaged almost 25 per 36 for his career. All that while remaining efficient. Nice job Walter. Andrew Bogut went from being viewed as a franchise centerpiece to a valuable defender on a championship contending team. Eddie Jones is a top 15/20 three point era shooting guard. He was a good enough scorer and a good defender but was on on teams where he had to score 20 without much of a supporting cast. DeAndre Jordan continues to make a name for himself as one of the most efficient bigs of recent years. He also rebounds like crazy and is a good defender. Shows you you can have wood hands and still be good. Speaking of efficient bigs of the era, Tyson Chandler enters the discussion. Perhaps slightly more efficient on offense but Deandre catches him in rebounding and defense. New age P n R bigs. Kenyon Martin wore it in New Jersey where he went to two straight finals. Walter Berry could score. And rebound a little. Avery Johnson won a championship and was a good passer. Terry Mills helped bring mediocrity in those post championship Detroit teams. Willie Naullis was a volume scorer with horrible efficiency back when my parents weren't born. Bonzi Wells had a good stint with #6 in the NBA with his post scoring.

Last edited by Mandich on Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Russell. I actually think he's a bit underrated offensively, and that his lack of huge scoring numbers doesn't quite tell the whole story about his offensive abilities. If nothing else, it's worth noting that he was more than capable of running the break for the Celtics.

And of course, special mention goes to Keith Bogans, for the coincidental connection to Australian slang.

Russell is my choice. lebron only had 6 for 4 seasons which were no doubt great but still only 4 seasons. also not counting blocks really hurts russell's stats, if they did his dominance would be much more evident i feel

Bill "count the rings" Russell.

Damn! I voted for LeBron but my real vote goes to Russell. A great player for long with 11 championships.

Despite the win share differences, I'll go with Bill Russell.

Bill Russell is extremely overrated. How many hall of famers has he played with? Like 4? No, how about 7 or 8. He played on a team that could have won without him. He was as big as Wilt but was extremely limited in offense. How do you shoot below 50% against who are 6 inches shorter than you in pioneer era. He's a winner but because the Celtics were rigged.

LeBron James had a seriously flawed career, mostly because of his flawed character and softness that comes naturally with it. Going back to the SAS vs CLE Finals, he went entirely invisible. That happened again in Miami. Even his two rings are asterisked because having Wade/Bosh in their prime, they were contending with or without him. In this year's Finals, we're finally seeing LBJ not going invisible and trying to step up. But look at his awful shootings and result. Forget best history or league, he's not even looking like the best player on his team but just a player with heavy role.

My vote goes to Erving cuz it makes me sick.

For one time in my life I'll give LeBron the reward he deserves. I mean look at him, he is probably top3 most dominant player in the nba history. Cavs went from being a draft team to the NBA Finals with having just him (Love's work was not that much). Russell was really dominant, but the competence he had wasn't that hard apart from Wilt. Julius Erving was better in his nets days with 32, but he'll not stand a chance again Magic.

The hate against LeBron appears I think from his attitude. Calling himself the king, holding a national tv programme just to tell where he'd go, ... But nobody can deny he is one of the greatest players ever, and he is a team leader, a really good one. Most star players are asholes, MJ was, Kobe was and LeBron is. It's difficult to find players ala KD.

So my vote for LeBron, I'm sure 15 years ahead of now we'll be talking about him like people who saw Jordan play talk now.

Russell's consistency wins this one over transitional players Dr J and LBJ...

He was as big as Wilt

Russell : 6-9 215 lbs
Wilt: 7-1 275 lbs

Yes they are the same.

he's not even looking like the best player on his team but just a player with heavy role.

You have literally no idea how boring you are and how butthurt you sound with the hate for the player whose crotch you were riding just a couple of years back.

Menopauss, question

Kobe's listed on the 8th or the 24th?

Menopauss, question

Kobe's listed on the 8th or the 24th?

If MJ's in consideration with number 45, why not Kobe?

There will be many players listen on more than one number(Kidd, Bosh so far).

Kobe will be on both #8 and #24 and he is eligible to win both.

he's not even looking like the best player on his team but just a player with heavy role.

You have literally no idea how boring you are and how butthurt you sound with the hate for the player whose crotch you were riding just a couple of years back.

You sound like a butthurt LBJ bandwagoner.

It has nothing to do with my hate for LBJ. Criticism is fair. It's players like Delly that came up huge in their wins. LBJ more or less was average even with all that ISO.

Menopauss, question

Kobe's listed on the 8th or the 24th?

If MJ's in consideration with number 45, why not Kobe?

From memory, we're leaving MJ out of #45, since he only wore it for less than half a season. That'd be my suggestion at any rate, since that's one of the reasons we're making these picks: dissatisfaction with the fact that the other list kind of cheated by listing players who only wore a certain number for a very short time. Kobe's kind of a different case, changing his number in his prime while also wearing his old number for a decent chunk of it.

Bill Russell is extremely overrated. How many hall of famers has he played with? Like 4? No, how about 7 or 8. He played on a team that could have won without him. He was as big as Wilt but was extremely limited in offense. How do you shoot below 50% against who are 6 inches shorter than you in pioneer era. He's a winner but because the Celtics were rigged.

LeBron James had a seriously flawed career, mostly because of his flawed character and softness that comes naturally with it. Going back to the SAS vs CLE Finals, he went entirely invisible. That happened again in Miami. Even his two rings are asterisked because having Wade/Bosh in their prime, they were contending with or without him. In this year's Finals, we're finally seeing LBJ not going invisible and trying to step up. But look at his awful shootings and result. Forget best history or league, he's not even looking like the best player on his team but just a player with heavy role.

My vote goes to Erving cuz it makes me sick.

lmfao at this entire post

One thing to note with Russell's win shares, first those Celtics rankings. They were 1st in defense all those years, but more impressively was how good the team was while being last on offense in many of those same years.

Anywho, top five finishes:
Defensive Win Shares
1956-57 NBA 4.6 (3)
1957-58 NBA 7.7 (1)
1958-59 NBA 8.2 (1)
1959-60 NBA 8.9 (1)
1960-61 NBA 11.3 (1)
1961-62 NBA 11.6 (1)
1962-63 NBA 12.6 (1)
1963-64 NBA 16.0 (1)
1964-65 NBA 14.4 (1)
1965-66 NBA 11.4 (1)
1966-67 NBA 9.2 (1)
1967-68 NBA 7.8 (2)
1968-69 NBA 9.9 (1)

Win Shares
1957-58 NBA 11.3 (3)
1958-59 NBA 12.9 (4)
1959-60 NBA 13.8 (2)
1960-61 NBA 13.0 (5)
1961-62 NBA 15.5 (4)
1962-63 NBA 13.5 (7)
1963-64 NBA 17.3 (3)
1964-65 NBA 16.9 (2)
1965-66 NBA 11.7 (4)
1966-67 NBA 12.2 (4)
1968-69 NBA 10.9 (7)

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
1957-58 NBA .206 (7)
1958-59 NBA .208 (5)
1959-60 NBA .211 (3)
1960-61 NBA .181 (10)
1961-62 NBA .217 (3)
1962-63 NBA .185 (9)
1963-64 NBA .238 (3)
1964-65 NBA .234 (3)
1965-66 NBA .165 (8)
1966-67 NBA .178 (8)

And for good measure...
Player Efficiency Rating
1956-57 NBA 20.9 (9)
1957-58 NBA 22.8 (4)
1958-59 NBA 20.7 (9)
1959-60 NBA 20.1 (10)
1961-62 NBA 19.4 (9)
1963-64 NBA 19.3 (9)
1964-65 NBA 19.5 (9)
1966-67 NBA 18.6 (10)

Those overall rankings look a lot closer to other more offensively minded big men when you account for them league-wise. Russell playing with great players also did knock his offensive numbers, of course you want Cousy, Jones, Ramsey, Havlicek, etc. taking the shots while Russell cleans up, locks down the defense and throws outlets. But I wouldn't assume Russell couldn't have put up 20 pts per 36 (and thus PER's in the 22+ range, which would have regularly put him into the top five) or more if he wasn't on a different team makeup. Indeed his first six years he average 15 per 36, while his last seven (most of which were when the Celtics were a more stacked and dominant team) he only averaged 11 per 36. Dropping from 13 shots to 10. (Also boosting his assists slightly.)

Also, his FG% was pretty good for the pre-Wilt era:
Effective Field Goal Pct
1956-57 NBA .427 (5)
1957-58 NBA .442 (3)
1958-59 NBA .457 (2)
1959-60 NBA .467 (4)

Russell and Wilt's rebounding stats are inflated because of the pace though, Hollinger (and Oliver came to similar figures) estimated they only grabbed about 20% of available rebounds, which while great isn't in Wallace/Evans/Fortson/Rodman territory despite what the per game/minute averages look like.

That was the era you played same team over and over and over and over and over and over and over again in one fucking season. I probably could pad my stats too if I went against Mugsy Bogus every night and play close to 48 mpg.

I feel your underestimating the skills of Muggsy here lol

I respect his skills but I don't for his height.

How tall are you?

The average height and weight of an NBA player in 1964-65: 6-6, 208
The average height and weight of an NBA player in 2014-15: 6-7, 218

Looking at the NBA League Averages on basketball refference really tells how much the media controls the general masses and their opinions.

Apparently the NBA is getting better at boxing out, kudos.

Dat pace in the 60s.

That was the era you played same team over and over and over and over and over and over and over again in one fucking season. I probably could pad my stats too if I went against Mugsy Bogus every night and play close to 48 mpg.

i am not sure you know what the term "stat padding" means

The average height and weight of an NBA player in 1964-65: 6-6, 208
The average height and weight of an NBA player in 2014-15: 6-7, 218

this is unexpected

How tall are you?

does not matter his height, mugsy would have destroyed him

You guys took it way too literally.