2013 Rookies Thread

Let me show you your own double standard. You are the guy that likes to go by ON/OFF stats especially on defense. Check out Tyson Chandler's stats.

I did acknowledge his contributions as an offensive rebounder, extra possessions are always a good thing. Doesn't make him a great scorer, despite good efficiency or someone that's "easy to play with" on the offensive end.

This is just getting silly. All this talk over silly stinker Jrue and perennial allstar Rondo.

I won't get into this further but point out a few things. And no, in no way you will change my mind about Jrue and Rondo with all these fantasia/fictitious stories based on pretty much nonsensical support, lol.

The only fictional things about this discussion are the mythical impact of minimizing your weaknesses - even at the cost of being very passive and encouraging defenders to sag way off - and Holiday hurting the offense of his team when it clearly benefits from his presence.

You can't be serious with this. Look up the definition of AST% and TOV%. How does this your own invention AST%/TO% tell us anything? For what purpose are you doing a mathematical division with these two numbers meaninglessly.

First, you knock me for using raw APG numbers to disprove that Holiday doesn't create anything for his teammates. AST%/TOV% takes into account the number of possessions a player has, which AST/TO doesn't. But that doesn't go together with your theories, so of course it's wrong.

It's because... Stockton becomes relevant if we go by your magnificent invention AST%/TO% (ala fake narratives you created in this silly discussions).

The thing is, I only "invented" it because you felt like judging a point guard by his AST/TO ratio when the quality of the offense he leads is a much more important thing. Which leads to...

Is this a joke?

...this exact question I've had in mind all this time I've been reading about how the Celtics having the 4th worst offense in the league in 2012 was the fault of... well, everybody but the super amazing point guard while all sings point to said everybody doing their jobs very well. The Celtics playing better after said point guard got injured last season was probably a hallucination since you never addressed it. Also, not penalizing defenses for sagging off you and clogging the paint all they want/double teaming efficient scorers on your team is not a bad thing at all because it minimizes weaknesses. Did you say something about fake narratives and fantasy stories?

AST%/TOV% takes into account the number of possessions a player has, which AST/TO doesn't. But that doesn't go together with your theories, so of course it's wrong.

Wow. This isn't even funny anymore.

That's the thing. You've been making things up now that I suspect you lost your sanity. AST% isn't possessions based, it's baskets made in totality(teammates') based. Just because TOV% is possession based, it don't mean you can divide anything with it and say it represents something. If this wasn't a joke, perhaps an insanity?

...this exact question I've had in mind all this time I've been reading about how the Celtics having the 4th worst offense in the league in 2012 was the fault of... well,

That exact question of yours is almost comical because we both know the answer to it already. Let's look at popular notions from back then.

Cons:
- Rondo's an individual stat whore, bad for the team.
- Don't push the ball, bad for spacing.
- Whatever applies. like all that you said.

Pros:
- Celtics leaned on him too hard. When they realized that, they had to play.
- Scapegoat, the media wants it, so do fans. It's their nature.

You know what this is though? Typical wankfest over sample size data that leads to extreme generalization and stupidly one dimensional conclusion. END-IT-ALL argument? Oh boy. If this is anyone's core evidence, then it's weak, biased, and selective.

The thing you're confusing is with the stats that are heavily dependent on team context and its correlation to individuals (also as w/ ast%). You kept on bringing up Celtics' offensive team rating and put entire blame upon Rondo. (silly as fuck if you ask me) Yet you were silly enough to rave about Jrue's team offensive rating and ORtg with/without Jrue on the floor. Why weren't you nice enough to check out stats with/without Rondo on the floor throughout his career as a whole. He's been vastly more positive influence than Jrue's ever been. That awful team ORtg of Celtics often dropped to catastrophically-bad without Rondo (yet I do not condone it's an end-it-all argument because of dependency on team context). Not to mention his excellent individual success in stats backing it up(only thing holding him back is TS%).

But ofc, instead let's forget about everything else over one single small occurrence which depicts more of team context anyway. And say dope stuff like high volume shooters(regardless of efficiency) are the only threats as there's no other aspects to the game of basketball, FOCUS ONLY ON MASS SHOOTING & ATTACK PLZ! Let's play a game too where we can make up anything to back it up. Kid me not. This is what exactly happened here.





Now, we've seen a better version of Rondo criticism in the past, which is whether Rondo's a product of the trio or not. That's a whole new discussion, it could be true or not but what we know for sure is that Rondo's individual success has been integral part of successful Celtics franchise for a good stretch of his career.

Wow. This isn't even funny anymore.

That's the thing. You've been making things up now that I suspect you lost your sanity. AST% isn't possessions based, it's baskets made in totality(teammates') based. Just because TOV% is possession based, it don't mean you can divide anything with it and say it represents something. If this wasn't a joke, perhaps an insanity?

OK, my bad. I confused AST% with AST rate - which is possession based - so let me use that this time.

Keeping the time frame I had previously, I averaged out Rondo's assist rates from 09-10 to now and Holiday's from this season and the last (I know averaging this stuff out will make the results slightly imprecise, but if you have time to calculate this play-by-play or know a site where such data is available, I'll gladly be corrected).

Rondo's average ASTr (possession based) - 39.6 - divided by 21.9 TOV% (possession based) is approximately 1.8

Holiday's average ASTr - 29.2 - divided by 17.5 TOV% is approximately 1.7.

Now, I don't think AST/TO ratio is as significant as you seem to do - especially if one of the compared players is also looking to score and the other isn't - but there you go. Still not seeing a huge difference.

That exact question of yours is almost comical because we both know the answer to it already. Let's look at popular notions from back then.

Cons:
- Rondo's an individual stat whore, bad for the team.
- Don't push the ball, bad for spacing.
- Whatever applies. like all that you said.

Pros:
- Celtics leaned on him too hard. When they realized that, they had to play.
- Scapegoat, the media wants it, so do fans. It's their nature.

You know what this is though? Typical wankfest over sample size data that leads to extreme generalization and stupidly one dimensional conclusion. END-IT-ALL argument? Oh boy. If this is anyone's core evidence, then it's weak, biased, and selective.

Factoring in the next season - which you are constantly avoiding like fire - makes the sample size bigger. The trend is that the larger Rondo's role was and the more the Celtics leaned on him (like teams tend to do when they have a top 2-5 PG), the worse offensive team they were, resulting in the 27th offense in 2012 and a complete disaster before he got injured in 2013, followed by improvement. That's especially interesting since they didn't really have a backup PG - Bradley sure as hell isn't one.

The thing you're confusing is with the stats that are heavily dependent on team context and its correlation to individuals

Just noticing that now? Not really something you wanted to acknowledge when we were arguing about someone else, but whatever. Could you explain what exactly was wrong with Rondo's teammates? What about them made Boston so bad that even a wonderful creator like Rondo couldn't save them from having a terrible offense, worsening as his role increased?

You kept on bringing up Celtics' offensive team rating and put entire blame upon Rondo. (silly as fuck if you ask me)

Why are you forcing me to repeat myself so much? One more time: who is to blame? Rondo was the primary ball handler and it was his job to create good looks. For others of course, since he's not a scoring threat himself. His teammates were a threat to score efficiently on a mid-to-high volume, demanding the defense's attention and spreading out the defense - so they couldn't clamp down on Rondo and take away his room to operate. Maybe the coach was forcing a Doug Collins-like offensive system on them? Doesn't seem like it since the same coach is currently leading a very good offense now that he has a great point guard.

say dope stuff like high volume shooters(regardless of efficiency) are the only threats as there's no other aspects to the game of basketball, FOCUS ONLY ON MASS SHOOTING & ATTACK PLZ!

This wasn't the point at all, but whatever floats your boat. Keep minimizing those weaknesses.

what we know for sure is that Rondo's individual success has been integral part of successful Celtics franchise for a good stretch of his career.

A better way to put it is that he happened to be there throughout their success. With players like Rondo, whether your team is having success or not is determined by where you play rather than how you play.

Keeping the time frame I had previously, I averaged out Rondo's assist rates from 09-10 to now and Holiday's from this season and the last (I know averaging this stuff out will make the results slightly imprecise, but if you have time to calculate this play-by-play or know a site where such data is available, I'll gladly be corrected).

Rondo's average ASTr (possession based) - 39.6 - divided by 21.9 TOV% (possession based) is approximately 1.8

Holiday's average ASTr - 29.2 - divided by 17.5 TOV% is approximately 1.7.

Now, I don't think AST/TO ratio is as significant as you seem to do - especially if one of the compared players is also looking to score and the other isn't - but there you go. Still not seeing a huge difference.

You would do anything huh. So yet again, another magnificent piece of invention to the fiction you're writing. Why couldn't we use more conventional method already created by infinitely smarter people from statistics. (Not 1, but if most tells the similar stories then we can come to more sound conclusion) Sure, you'd crap out and come up with another lame excuse, please don't. I'm done here.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=7538

Lastly, Rondo never excelled in shooting (TS% supports it, neither was Jrue ever decent, fuck other garbage theories unless result supports so). Rondo never needed to be a volume shooter alongside the superstar trios. The team needed a PG that could excel in other aspects of basketball, this is a given (ideally not another volume usage player especially NOT another volume shooter which you can easily find anyway ala Aaron Brooks. Fucking stupid theory that volume shooter is a threat and others can't be.). In that, Rondo's done his job right including at being an excellent distributor which was one of his best weapons. You trying desperately to prove otherwise only proved you more stuck-up/ignorant than right. I told you this. His strength >>> weakness, it played to success both on individual and team account, based on majority of evidence. This entire discussion on assist is stupid, dull, and pointless because it's all about you being in denial and living in lies.





Proves my point of you being extremely selective and biased in data/criteria you intentionally focus on(mostly phony stuff). It's almost moronic/trolling how you don't see this.

Proves my point of you being extremely selective and biased in data/criteria you intentionally focus on

Impressive, tell me about it. You're the one who continues to ignore most of my questions which could possibly explain the cause of the Celtics constantly sucking on offense since you're so positive Rondo had absolutely nothing to do with it as their ball handler and "general" because ASSISTS.

Fucking stupid theory that volume shooter is a threat and others can't be.

Yeah, keep repeating the same things until you start believing in them. Quote where I specifically said that only a player who is a volume shooter can be a threat or shut up.

OK, I can see now that this is pointless. I definitely need to work on minimizing my weakness that is wasting my time on discussions with someone who ignores half of my points/questions all the time due to being busy coming up with different adjectives to call me and keeps laughing at me for saying things I didn't actually say. I'm out, dipshit.

It took 10 extensive posts exchanged alone on obvious wrong assist ratio topic when it could have ended at very 1st post, yet you still wanted to drag with something new *wrong (which btw I exactly knew where you were going with this, again). You wanted me to play your game of endless fantasia. I just prefer to cut to the chase.