well, the cavs are out, where will LeBron be in 2011?

[atlwarrior]

Strange? Not really. Kobe pulls up for the mid range and has his back to the basket more frequently than Lebron does. In attack mode If LeBron cant find an opening to get to the rim he'll dish it to find the open man. If he cannot find an open man, get to the rim or his teammates are not HITTING SHOTS he'll pull up for three.

[benji]

And someone says it pithier than I could in 20 minutes. (See below.)

Finished watching that game, not sure how I'm meant to draw the conclusion from that that LeBron is at all a well-rounded player offensively.

Who said you were supposed to? The game was provided as an example among others of how LeBron can be a devestating offensive player that can pace an offense on his own. There was no expectation that you could view anything that would dissuade you of your preconceptions. This is why we aren't part of the "watch the games" club around here anymore.

We especially don't expect anything from a single game.

So Kobe Bryant is a better shooter than LeBron James? That's kinda my point.

Well, if you concluded that from the above stats, then your point must really be that 44% and 44% are two different numbers. And you also dismissed that LeBron creates far more of his own jumpers, thus implying greater difficulty jumpers.

Regarding the threes, the next four seasons he shoots a more LeBron like 33%-34%-35%-34% while taking 18%-29%-24%-23% of his FGAs from beyond the arc. Of particular note are the two years of 2004-06 where Kobe was, like LeBron, basically the only driver of the offense. (Kobe will do 41%-43%-46%-47% on jumpers over that span as his jumper solidifies into the modern version of it.) It's also interesting to note that Kobe has dramatically limited his game to jumpers from how it was earlier in his career. In 2003-04 his split looks more like 66-28-5-1 on his shots. Compare to LeBron's 64-27-8-0 this season.

Also interesting is that Kobe shot 47% on jumpers in the playoffs last year, while LeBron shot 48%. And playing off what Jae noted earlier, which like so much was ignored, LeBron's driving to the basket allowed him to put up 35.3 pts on 22.3 fga per game. Kobe took 23.0 fga but only managed 30.2 pts because he wasn't driving as much, getting dunks and free throws.

There's nothing wrong with two-point jumpers if that's what the defense is giving you.

There's a reason the defense gives long twos, they're horrible shots. Players who take lots of them out of proportion are guys who kill teams.

LeBron is limited offensively. Points these stats back up.

Again, no they don't. LeBron is the best offensive player in the league and has been each of the last two years. He combines the leagues sixth best ORtg with the leagues second best Usage, which is why he's led in offensive win shares each of the last two seasons. He's one of the most efficient offensive players and combines it with gobs of Usage. This is how Michael Jordan led the league seven times. It's a huge part of why LeBron is the best player in basketball currently.

And at no point have I ever argued

Let's go back and look at what you've argued then, since it has been lost:
1. Two historically versatile players cannot play together.
2. That you cannot have two high usage perimeter players.
3. LeBron is massively overrated. (With no explanation of who is doing the overrating, how they are overrating him and what his proper rating is.)
4. That because a team of twelve shooting guards may not win a title, LeBron and Wade cannot play together.
5. LeBron is Kobe Lite. (This has clearly been disproven now in this thread.)
6. That you haven't seen any instance where LeBron played more like early-Magic than late-Magic so it doesn't exist.
7. LeBron is incredibly limited and should be better than the best player in the league.
8. There is no God.
9. LeBron is not that talented.
10. I am more talented than LeBron.
11. LeBron has failed to live up to his potential. (Like overrated, potential not defined, nor any other players named who have lived up to their potential.)
12. Muggsy Bogues was more talented than LeBron.
13. 33% from three is below average.
14. LeBron can only do one thing on the court.
15. All LeBron does is penetrate.
16. Because 14 and 15, LeBron is one-dimensional.
17. LeBron can only get his shot off one way.
18. LeBron should spend time sitting on the preimeter waiting for kick outs from other players.
19. LeBron does not shoot well. (Also, disproven. See below for more.)
20. Only if you shoot 40% from three should be allowed to shoot threes. (Another flaw of Kobe's! But, see below.)
21. Despite it almost never happening that players who take 7+ free throws per 36 also shoot 80% or more, all players should do so or they're one-dimensional or something.
22. There is no such things as limits, anyone can be perfect at anything.
23. LeBron has no mid-range shot. (See below.)

It's with versatility that one can better function in such situations.

LeBron and Wade aren't two of, if not the two most, versatile players in the league?

the mid-range, like a Kobe Bryant or a Carmelo Anthony.

And here's where we settle this silly talk about no mid-range game and poor shooting.

Five players last year scored 25 points per 36 and played 2000 minutes. Let's take a gander at their scoring and shooting locations, shall we? First, their base scoring, efficiency and how well they put the ball in the basket with a shot (either overall or from the floor):

Player	P/36	ORtg	TS%	eFG%	OWS/48
LeBron James	27.4	121	.604	.545	.216
Kevin Durant	27.5	118	.607	.514	.163
Dwyane Wade	26.4	113	.562	.500	.144
Kobe Bryant	25.0	109	.545	.488	.091
Carmelo Anthony	26.6	110	.548	.478	.101

This doesn't tell us anymore than we already knew, Durant is the best at putting up points and scoring with shots, LeBron is the best at creating baskets, shooting from the floor and the best offensive player overall. Kobe is the worst at putting up points, creating baskets, scoring with shots and worst overally, while Anthony is the worst shooter.

(Continued)

Last edited by benji on Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[benji]

Then, where they were shooting from in terms of feet, along with the % and Pts per 40 (you can multiply by .9 yourself) gotten from there:

Player	Shots at the Rim	Pts	FG%	<10 Feet	Pts	FG%	10-15 Feet	Pts	FG%	16-23 Feet	Pts	FG%	Threes	Pts	eFG%
LeBron James	6.9	10.2	.733	1.5	1.6	.535	1.2	0.8	.322	5.6	4.4	.400	5.2	5.1	.500
Kevin Durant	5.3	7.4	698	1.7	1.4	.430	3.4	3.2	.471	5.9	4.4	.370	5.3	3.2	.548
Dwyane Wade	8.1	11.0	.670	2.0	1.8	.471	2.1	1.4	.340	5.8	4.2	.360	3.5	2.0	.449
Kobe Byrant	5.0	5.8	.586	2.4	2.2	.462	4.1	4.0	.497	6.2	5.2	.410	4.2	2.8	.494
Carmelo Anthony	8.3	9.8	.596	1.9	1.2	.331	2.3	2.0	.427	7.4	6.0	.400	2.8	1.8	.474

I know, I know. AHA! Well, let's talk about this, look at the full scale and question the idea of "mid-range" first.

Inside, LeBron is basically unstoppable. Only one player who logged 30+ mpg shot better at the rim. Dwight Howard of course (75%) and the next closest player who was in range of 6+ attempts was Andrew Bynum at 70%. Despite this, Wade and Anthony take far more relative shots at the rim. (More on this later.) Infact, they were #2 and #3 last season after Tyreke Evans (9.0) and slightly above Zach Randolph (8.1) and Amare Stoudamire/Carlos Boozer/David Lee (7.8). Wade is more like the bigs in his shooting there and thus was the top scorer at the rim, while Anthony is more in line with other perimeter players.

The next grouping is mostly runners, short jumpers and some put-backs on boards that drop out a little ways. This is why there's so few attempts, if you're within that range it's better to just take it deeper if you can. (Look at the perimeter leaders: Rose, Paul, Parker who are three guys I'd think of if someone said "guys with great runners.") LeBron takes the fewest here (yes, still more on this later) but is the best at it. Anthony falls apart, as he clearly does not have a runner, or at least I've never seen him pull it out. Durant mostly uses his length here and doesn't have much of a runner either. (Since his length makes him not explicitly need one.) Kobe takes the most shots here because he tends to pull up when he hits the paint more than the rest of the guys (save Durant) who tend to take it all the way.

Now we're in the first part of the "mid-range" there's some debate over what "mid-range" should mean. I consider it the area between the paint and the three point line as you're either scoring in the paint, from three point range or in the middle. Some consider it merely the "15 footer." I consider that to mean this entire range, especially 12-20 feet. It's termed the 15 footer because that's where the free throw line is. Kobe and Durant obviously take the most here and shoot the best here, LeBron takes so few it's not even worth mentioning. Wade and Anthony almost aren't worth mentioning either but noting them plays into a later part.

At 16-23 here's where the mid-range shooting really shows itself. Anthony jacks the most (they're mostly in the 20-23 foot range as anyone who watches him knows he's notorious for flinging up shots just inside the line since he can't take his man off the dribble that great and seems wary about his three point shot) and ties with LeBron for second best shooting from there. Both are just a hair below Bryant (Dirk is the best guy here, taking 8.8 and hitting 46%) while Durant and Wade are farther down. Wade's clearly outside his range at this point (see his three pointer numbers) while Durant is in that dead zone of lousy shots. (Lots of those 20-23 footers from him too.) Taking the next steps out, LeBron breaks even, Durant shoots well, the others are below average, Kobe just slightly although he doesn't take as many as the first two guys.

So back to the key point about the doughnut of LeBron's shooting. Worst FG%, AHA, NO MID RANGE GAME! But I don't believe that's the best explanation. Considering LeBron is second from 16+ in % and third in attempts there's no reason to think he can shoot from farther out and can't shoot at 10-15 feet. Instead, I think this makes logical sense when you look at how few shots he takes, basically one a game. The reason being that when LeBron gets within fifteen feet, it's a step and a half to the rim. LeBron could be like Kobe and take more shots from here, or he could get to the basket where he's the best perimeter player, and the best perimeter player at drawing fouls. (Which I think explains his lower attempts there, he's fouled before he gets there once he makes his move from 15 feet.) No, he doesn't shoot 80%, he shoots 76-78%, so 80% wouldn't add much at all and 90% wouldn't add more than an extra three replacing that one 10-15 footer would.

And as should be clear, he's strong where Wade is not just weak, but terrible. Wade stops existing in any meaningful way outside 10 feet while destroying most inside. If LeBron plays the Magic role, he can completely co-exist with Wade. There's zero reason to think LeBron can't shoot while off the ball, just because he "hasn't shown it" well, yeah, he takes 80% of jumpers off the dribble and he doesn't have people to set him up. Mo Williams sitting at the three point line and LeBron driving is the BETTER allocation of possessions, not the other way around.

It's very easy to envision a five man unit here. Let LeBron handle the ball in a standard point guard role, Wade attack the basket in the half court and full court as his primary role. The two playing off each other wouldn't be hard to do either, they can free lance switching roles at will as their games are working or not. You can only guard one of them at a time. Wade drives, ball is swung to LeBron as the defense tries to reset, who drives against the one guy left guarding him. So on, and so forth. Then it's easy to fill in the other positions, you get a point guard who can shoot threes (too many to name), and then you get a player you can stick at PF and can shoot like Rashard Lewis (or more reasonabily guys like Channing Frye, Ryan Anderson, Troy Murphy, Matt Bonner, Al Harrington, or Brian Cook if he was still alive) so you have two kick outs for both Wade and LeBron. Then add in a big guy who can ideally defend or block shots, but more importantly can hit the offensive boards and not use a lot of possessions like Erick Dampier. If you could fill in a bench of a few more versatile (in terms of positions that can be played) three point shooters plus another guy or two who can create shots (you wouldn't need two since you have LeBron AND Wade) plus a couple of bigs you'd be one of the three best offenses easily. (And if it was say, Miami, and you had a player who if he got a great offensive coach would turn him into a superstar like Michael Beasley some great stuff could happen.)

The key would not be bringing in someone like Mike Brown or Larry Brown (in other words don't hire someone with the last name Brown), slowing the pace to a crawl and having your superstar try to take the entire defense off the dribble every possession while everyone else stands around waiting to drop to the basket or spread the floor at the line.

I think one problem you're having is recognizing that LeBron has been on a team that doesn't actually maximize his already incredible abilities. Yes, the All-Star Games or Olympics are different, but the point was the STYLE of play, LeBron playing with lots of other good players tries to play more like Magic or Nash or Kidd and gets everyone involved and either takes shots when needed or penetrates to create. The best player LeBron has played with was Carlos Boozer in his rookie year. Next was Anderson Varejao who wasn't really a guy to work with on offense, at times I'd take more shots in a quarter than Varejao. Drew Gooden wasn't either unless 15/10 guys who score below average are considered superstars these days. I'm not really talking about Ilgauskas because of his need to basically be posted up in the half court, the same problem they had with Shaq this year and why they were better with Varejao and Hickson up front, in that it takes away the best of everyone else to slow down and post up a guy, no matter how good that player is down there.

Let's look at the paces of these two guys teams.
LeBron: 13th, 19th, (Mike Brown) 19th, 18th (Finals), 25th, 25th, 25th.
Wade: 23rd, 15th, (Riley) 12th (Title), 25th, 22nd, 22nd, 28th. (Let's note that Wade only took 71 threes in 2006, less than one a game, while getting 11 free throws a game DESPITE playing with Shaq. In comparison to 243 (about 3 per game) and getting 9 FTs a game DESPITE 10% more possessions.)

Slowing down the game cuts down on free throws (high percentage opportunities) and increases defended threes and long twos. A LeBron-Wade duo that would run would be even more devestating than they are.

Imagine if they go to the Knicks with D'Antoni. (Consider how he changed perceptions on Quentin Richardson, Joe Johnson, Raja Bell, Boris Diaw, Shawn Marion, etc. by getting the floor opened up for them instead of making them play in the half court.) The team tells Lee to wait around, brings in LeBron and Wade, re-signs Lee. Then brings back Harrington for cheaper and gets a bunch of other players who want to join up. Lee hits the glass, Harrington/Gallinari are your stretch PF (and I do mean stretch) you're most of the way to the ideal lineup above in terms of design. It doesn't have to be the end this is just the start of things. You can work at things, look at how veterans have flocked to the Spurs and Celtics (or say, the 2006 Heat).

To note on these two players you prefer, let's look at their paces:
Anthony: 1st, 4th, (Karl) 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 6th, 5th
Kobe: 6th, (Rudy T) 14th, (Jackson) 15th, 8th, 6th, 5th (Title), 14th

Neither Kobe, nor Melo has ever played in a below average pace environment. Even with Shaq the team went 10th, 1st, 2nd, 14th, 14th, 6th, 8th. Jackson's triangle offense slows the pace somewhat but he still lets them run and freelance. Wade and LeBron aren't getting that in the slow-down take-the-entire-defense-off-the-dribble offenses where basically only one other guy can create. Slow things down and force Kobe from 2002-03 and Melo to create all their shots off the dribble in the half court against packed in defenses with no bail-out star? I doubt you'd like the results for Melo either.

You can win with slowing the pace, the Bulls and Spurs have, but they did it for different reasons. (Pistons as well) And they never had to rely on one guy to create. Spurs could go inside to Duncan or let Parker/Manu try to create. Bulls could go to Jordan or Pippen. Mo Williams is a solid player, but he's not any of those sidekicks.

In other words, I don't see the support for 90% of your arguments on LeBron, your individual talent, LeBron vs. Kobe, or your still unproven claim that LeBron and Wade can work together. (The faulty premises hurt it, but it was weak to begin with as has now been discussed.)

Now, regarding Muggsy Bogues...

[benji]

Huh, didn't realize it was going to be that long. Oh well, it's not like anyone would read it even if it was two sentences long based on earlier in this thread.

Probably why you should read before you post.

EDIT: And despite all that I still forgot something. Regarding 40% three point shooting. Last year only 21 players shot better than 40% while taking more than 90 threes. I consider 32% to be "alright" and 35+% to be "useful." Once you're into 40+% you need to bomb like crazy because it's probably the best shot you can give the team. (That's 60+% on two-pointers.)

[koberulz]

Who said you were supposed to?

You did. Something about the variety of ways he could get his shot off or something.

It's also interesting to note that Kobe has dramatically limited his game to jumpers from how it was earlier in his career.

That'll happen when you get old. Which is the other major issue with LeBron - he won't be a beast forever.

LeBron is limited offensively. Points these stats back up.

Again, no they don't. LeBron is the best offensive player in the league and has been each of the last two years. He combines the leagues sixth best ORtg with the leagues second best Usage, which is why he's led in offensive win shares each of the last two seasons. He's one of the most efficient offensive players and combines it with gobs of Usage. This is how Michael Jordan led the league seven times. It's a huge part of why LeBron is the best player in basketball currently.

None of which mentions his offensive versatility.

1. Two historically versatile players cannot play together.

Wade and LeBron? It was their lack of versatility that brought about that argument. A lack of versatility that you've proved to be present.

4. That because a team of twelve shooting guards may not win a title, LeBron and Wade cannot play together.

Not quite as fallaciously as that, though. My point was about filling holes before getting someone who is very much a clone of someone already present on the team, thus making a big man a higher priority for a team that already has a perimeter player with little more to his game than penetration.

6. That you haven't seen any instance where LeBron played more like early-Magic than late-Magic so it doesn't exist.

Not what I said. I said I hadn't seen it, thus didn't know of its existence and thus couldn't be expected to involve it in my thought process.

7. LeBron is incredibly limited and should be better than the best player in the league.

I wouldn't say "incredibly".

11. LeBron has failed to live up to his potential. (Like overrated, potential not defined, nor any other players named who have lived up to their potential.)

I wouldn't suggest any clearly have, but I also can't think of any players that are so clearly capable of much more. Dwight and LeBron's post games being the primary examples. Not that this makes LeBron bad, or limited, or anything of the sort, it was merely a response to NovU's argument that LeBron could not possibly be any better than he is and has lived up to his full potential, which I don't believe can ever be honestly said of anyone. However, while Kobe comes back every year with something new to his game and works with Nike on making shoes that reduce his reaction time, LeBron won't even go and get a post game.

18. LeBron should spend time sitting on the preimeter waiting for kick outs from other players.

No, if LeBron could do that, he'd be a more dangerous and versatile player, and would be a far better pairing for Wade.

21. Despite it almost never happening that players who take 7+ free throws per 36 also shoot 80% or more, all players should do so or they're one-dimensional or something.

Nobody in the NBA should shoot below 80% from the free-throw line simply because less than that is bad. And that one's not even my rule.

22. There is no such things as limits, anyone can be perfect at anything.

When did I ever say anything of the sort?

LeBron and Wade aren't two of, if not the two most, versatile players in the league?

How are they? Wade, according to your stats, is even worse than LeBron. Scoring lots of points at high efficiency doesn't make you versatile, nor does being versatile make you score lots of points at high efficiency. Makes it easier, though.

So back to the key point about the doughnut of LeBron's shooting. Worst FG%, AHA, NO MID RANGE GAME! But I don't believe that's the best explanation. Considering LeBron is second from 16+ in % and third in attempts there's no reason to think he can shoot from farther out and can't shoot at 10-15 feet.

Isn't this ignoring the fact that he shoots the worst from there of the five players listed, regardless of how many attempts he takes and what the reason might be? Not to mention that getting to the rim is a part of the mid-range game anyway, which for LeBron involves dribbling all the way out to half court first.

And as should be clear, he's strong where Wade is not just weak, but terrible. Wade stops existing in any meaningful way outside 10 feet while destroying most inside.

Not really all that versatile of him then, is it?

It's very easy to envision a five man unit here. Let LeBron handle the ball in a standard point guard role, Wade attack the basket in the half court and full court as his primary role.

Where you get hurt here, though, is that this combination would be at its best with LeBron spending at least some of his time in the post. Except that he has no post game. Which for a guy his size is ridiculous.

Yes, the All-Star Games or Olympics are different, but the point was the STYLE of play, LeBron playing with lots of other good players tries to play more like Magic or Nash or Kidd and gets everyone involved and either takes shots when needed or penetrates to create.

I didn't even actually say the Olympics were different. They probably are, but not to the extent of All Star games, which basically feature no defense. I simply haven't seen the Olympics (it's Australia; if it's not swimming, we don't care), so I can't really see how LeBron plays in that environment.

[NovU]

a response to NovU's argument that LeBron could not possibly be any better than he is and has lived up to his full potential,

Again quoting out of context, especially since you didn't define "Lebron's full potential" even though you were asked to, numerously but... carry on.

[benji]

You did. Something about the variety of ways he could get his shot off or something.

Read my entire paragraph again.

That'll happen when you get old. Which is the other major issue with LeBron - he won't be a beast forever.

Kobe's not old, he's coming down off his prime. LeBron is seven years away from where Kobe is.

None of which mentions his offensive versatility.

So you believe that a player can be the best player in the league offensively while only being able to do one thing offensively?

Wade and LeBron? It was their lack of versatility that brought about that argument. A lack of versatility that you've proved to be present.

You clearly don't know what the word versatility means. That's the only thing I can conclude from the mounds of evidence that the players are massively versatile that exists.

Not quite as fallaciously as that, though. My point was about filling holes before getting someone who is very much a clone of someone already present on the team, thus making a big man a higher priority for a team that already has a perimeter player with little more to his game than penetration.

Except you can't fill holes until you have a team. As stands the major players with cap space do not have even have teams. They are barren and empty. They can build whatever they want, they are clean states. This was on purpose.

Not what I said. I said I hadn't seen it, thus didn't know of its existence and thus couldn't be expected to involve it in my thought process.

Yet you spent pages arguing it wasn't there.

I wouldn't say "incredibly".

Shall I quote you then?

He's been in the league seven years now or something, and he's still incredibly limited.

Huh.

I wouldn't suggest any clearly have, but I also can't think of any players that are so clearly capable of much more. Dwight and LeBron's post games being the primary examples. Not that this makes LeBron bad, or limited, or anything of the sort, it was merely a response to NovU's argument that LeBron could not possibly be any better than he is and has lived up to his full potential, which I don't believe can ever be honestly said of anyone. However, while Kobe comes back every year with something new to his game and works with Nike on making shoes that reduce his reaction time, LeBron won't even go and get a post game.

So no player lives up to their potential, not much of a criticism if nobody does it. Did you know LeBron can't fly or produce a renewable fuel source with his excrement? What a loser. Why does anyone care about him?

No, if LeBron could do that, he'd be a more dangerous and versatile player, and would be a far better pairing for Wade.

Well, do you have any evidence he can't? Or is this: "I said I hadn't seen it, thus didn't know of its existence" untrue?

Nobody in the NBA should shoot below 80% from the free-throw line simply because less than that is bad. And that one's not even my rule.

I don't even know how to respond to this. It's some kind of weird demand. 65% is the real cutoff. You can't hack a person more likely to make a free throw than not, once you get into the 75-80% range it's the same as 80%.

Some people can't develop the mechanics. It has to be inherent. The good shooters from anywhere are normally, Bruce Bowen excepted (the only player to ever shoot better on 3P% than FT%), good shooters at the line. And as Shaq and others have proven, you can practice like mad and it doesn't matter. Humans have limits. That's why life is interesting.

When did I ever say anything of the sort?

Your notion that if a player or person has any kind of flaw they have not reached their potential. Humans are not infinite they have limits.

How are they? Wade, according to your stats, is even worse than LeBron. Scoring lots of points at high efficiency doesn't make you versatile, nor does being versatile make you score lots of points at high efficiency. Makes it easier, though.

Again, I noted what your problem is. You think the game consists only of shooting. (Also, Jae's point. Actually this might be even more important than mine.)

Isn't this ignoring the fact that he shoots the worst from there of the five players listed, regardless of how many attempts he takes and what the reason might be? Not to mention that getting to the rim is a part of the mid-range game anyway, which for LeBron involves dribbling all the way out to half court first.

Maybe you should read the paragraphs. The logic was clear. Watching the games makes this doubly clear. LeBron avoids the 10-15 foot range because if he can get within it, he can get to the rim or the FT line. Why take a shot that even Kobe, maybe the best in the league in that range, shoots at less than 50% when you can take another strong step and shoot between 54-73% or get to the line where you can hit 76-78%?

Not really all that versatile of him then, is it?

Same point as before, isn't it?

Where you get hurt here, though, is that this combination would be at its best with LeBron spending at least some of his time in the post. Except that he has no post game. Which for a guy his size is ridiculous.

You seem to think the game needs to run through slowing down and setting up the post. It doesn't. And playing LeBron at PF, as Mike Brown refused to do even when it killed the team might motivate LeBron to see if he has some moves to take those guys who can't really guard him.

Now does LeBron avoid the post? Yes, but I'm not sure it's because he has zero post-game. His athleticism alone should allow him to operate enough. It's that he wants to back off and see if he can create a better play overall. He knows his post game limits. Jordan and Kobe's (obviously) post games both revolve around turning into jumpers. (Thus that 10-15 range shot.) LeBron wants better shots. Jordan's jumper was so amazing he could do it, Kobe can't. LeBron knows he can't so he looks for the better play. All LeBron needs is confidence to spin to the basket as that's all Dwight's got and teams are for some reason afraid of him. (If they don't have someone like Perkins to throw in his way.)

Post games aren't hard to add, Kobe did it after ten years, in one off-season. LeBron already has incredible timing and sense, that's why he passes the ball so well. LeBron will never work into the post like Jordan, neither will Kobe despite how much he wants to be Jordan. So they both look elsewhere, as they should. I'd much rather give LeBron a seriously vicious three point shot with a couple extra post moves instead.

I didn't even actually say the Olympics were different. They probably are, but not to the extent of All Star games, which basically feature no defense. I simply haven't seen the Olympics (it's Australia; if it's not swimming, we don't care), so I can't really see how LeBron plays in that environment.

Yet you continue to comment on what LeBron can't do and how he can't play. If you're going to ignore the stats, you need to look at the games. I don't think you're doing either.

If you'd just say you dislike LeBron and that Kobe is the best player in the league (even though he's never been so) everyone could just move on from your "LeBron is one-dimensional" nonsense even though (and I'm seriously in pain calling on the wisdom of crowds) everyone else (except Kobe and Wade fanatics) have accepted he's the best player in the league, and that like Jordan at the same age he could get even better, and nobody would seriously reject getting him if they could do it in a reasonable manner.

LeBron is the best in the game right now. The fact that he has some flaws he could perfect (let alone bump a bit) does not diminish that, instead it speaks to the fact that in three years we might be asking if we should even have a regular season and just how many times the Bulls 72-10 record might be broken. Him joining with another of the all-time greats like Wade threatens the league even more. I love Chris Paul more than both, but I can't see him destroying the league like these two could.

Who knows what will happen, maybe LeBron goes back to Cleveland and the team flounders trying to bring talent in around him. Or maybe he goes to New York or Miami and builds a dynasty with Wade or others. This is a Shaq in 1997 re-defining situation. Kareem and Shaq are the only other times since 1970 where the best player in the league has chosen his team. (Dr. J was a bit late.) And both got nothing out of it until another superstar came along. (Neither did Dr. J.) LeBron gets to add another right off the bat.

RE: An original point. There's a very specific reason all the great "duos" are Centers/Perimeter. Great bigs are more rare, so they dictate their era. If there's a bunch, like the 1990s (at both C and PF), it allows a great player at another position to establish himself as so far above everyone else. Enter: Jordan. When they disappear and the perimeter gluts, the bigs decide. See: Shaq and Duncan. Now, we have Dwight, and...Oden maybe? Yao hasn't been healthy, and so we've been decided by "bigs" like Gasol and KG along with players like LeBron. The 80's went through this. And they got along fine with pushing the pace and using multiple high possession players.

[koberulz]

So you believe that a player can be the best player in the league offensively while only being able to do one thing offensively?

If they do that one thing well enough.

You clearly don't know what the word versatility means. That's the only thing I can conclude from the mounds of evidence that the players are massively versatile that exists.

Where's the mid-range game? The three-point shot? The post game? It's all penetration with both guys.

So no player lives up to their potential, not much of a criticism if nobody does it. Did you know LeBron can't fly or produce a renewable fuel source with his excrement? What a loser. Why does anyone care about him?

What does any of that have to do with my argument that the distance between LeBron's actual ability and his potential is the largest visible?

And as Shaq and others have proven, you can practice like mad and it doesn't matter.

Shaq has an absolutely horrible shooting action. LeBron, not so much.

When did I ever say anything of the sort?

Your notion that if a player or person has any kind of flaw they have not reached their potential. Humans are not infinite they have limits.

Again. When did I say anything of the sort? I'm not expecting anyone to be perfect.

Maybe you should read the paragraphs. The logic was clear. Watching the games makes this doubly clear. LeBron avoids the 10-15 foot range because if he can get within it, he can get to the rim or the FT line. Why take a shot that even Kobe, maybe the best in the league in that range, shoots at less than 50% when you can take another strong step and shoot between 54-73% or get to the line where you can hit 76-78%?

That explains the low number of attempts from that range, not the low percentage on the attempts he does take.

You seem to think the game needs to run through slowing down and setting up the post. It doesn't.

It does sometimes. If running the ball up and down the floor is the only way you can score, any decent slow-paced team will own you. It needn't be your main strategy, but there needs to be an effective way of doing it.

And playing LeBron at PF, as Mike Brown refused to do even when it killed the team might motivate LeBron to see if he has some moves to take those guys who can't really guard him.

Now does LeBron avoid the post? Yes, but I'm not sure it's because he has zero post-game.

If I'm LeBron, have any sort of a post game, and have Chauncey Billups on my back in the post, why would I want to face him up and attempt a drive (and get stopped)?

Post games aren't hard to add, Kobe did it after ten years, in one off-season.

Kobe had a post game before this year.

I'd much rather give LeBron a seriously vicious three point shot with a couple extra post moves instead.

Absolutely, but he's more likely to have reached his ceiling as far as his shooting is concerned than as far as his post game is concerned.

"LeBron is one-dimensional"

LeBron has limited tools at his disposal with which he can effectively score, regardless of how effective those few tools may be. Better?

and nobody would seriously reject getting him if they could do it in a reasonable manner.

Not saying they would. I'd just rather pair him with Amar'e or Bosh than with Wade.

[benji]

If they do that one thing well enough.

I don't think that's rational at all.

Where's the mid-range game? The three-point shot? The post game? It's all penetration with both guys.

Still stuck on shooting to describe players.

What does any of that have to do with my argument that the distance between LeBron's actual ability and his potential is the largest visible?

You have to define his potential before you can say he does or does not live up to it.

Again. When did I say anything of the sort?

Did you read what you wrote?

That explains the low number of attempts from that range, not the low percentage on the attempts he does take.

Of course it does. If you don't plan to ever take shots from there, and you're the guy your team goes to at all times, there's still a strong chance you take enough shots from that region for whatever reason that you wind up with one in the course of a game. LeBron takes the second most shots (after Delonte West) on the Cavs from that area, followed by Mo Williams, then Jamison and then Shaq. None of these players have the same offensive profile. The result is a clear avoidance of the Cavs of that area of the court to the point it was an afterthought in their LeBron tries to drive on everyone offense. Jamison for example took almost three time as many shots from that area while he was in Washington. (And if you look at just Jamison there's no consistancy to his shooting there over the last four years. Nor LeBron. Or anybody else on the few teams I looked at. It's an afterthought location on the court for pretty much everyone in the league. For good reason.)

It does sometimes. If running the ball up and down the floor is the only way you can score, any decent slow-paced team will own you.

No, they won't. The slow-paced team will be run off the floor if they can't adjust. This isn't new research. Dean Oliver proved this back in the late 90s and it was basically proven over the last decade. Slowing the pace alone doesn't do anything for you.

If I'm LeBron, have any sort of a post game, and have Chauncey Billups on my back in the post, why would I want to face him up and attempt a drive (and get stopped)?

Because you can completely blow past Chauncey and get a dunk or at least a foul. I'm the biggest Billups cocksucker that exists probably, but he won't be stopping LeBron in such a situation. The problem as mentioned is that LeBron backs off too far. You can break him of this in a year or less if you aren't Mike Brown. I refuse to believe LeBron is a complete idiot.

Kobe had a post game before this year.

I'm not sure why you think four years ago was this year.

Absolutely, but he's more likely to have reached his ceiling as far as his shooting is concerned than as far as his post game is concerned.

You mean like Kobe did when he was "bricking" like LeBron in 2002-03?

LeBron has limited tools at his disposal with which he can effectively score, regardless of how effective those few tools may be. Better?

Nope. I give the ball to Kobe and ask him to score on my defense, what will he do if I give him ten possessions? I know he'll shoot a jumper on 7-8 on them no matter what. LeBron, I don't know, he might destroy me on the way to the basket or bomb two threes in my face and then see if he can setup easy buckets for his teammates on the next eight. I can't overplay him anywhere, Kobe I can throw crap at him and are Artest and Fisher to beat me (the Suns did this before they panicked about the Zone if you missed it) while staying home on the bigs. I try to play LeBron one-on-one he's going to take us to the basket, if I overplay, he's going to make a move and dish to someone else or like he did the Celtics just decide to bomb two threes in when he wants. If the Cavs had any sense of rotation or useful lineups they'd make me pay. They didn't, so they lost.

And before you start, the Pacers, Spurs, Pistons and Celtics all took Kobe out of a series by keeping a defender on him and focusing their defense to cut off any kick-outs on the triangle. When Kobe was at his peak he chose not to shoot in the fourth quarter, and throughout his career everyone else took him out of the game while cutting off the bigs if they wanted to win. Kobe was always the fake, Shaq and now Gasol/etc. was the hook. On a great team, LeBron would be the same, as Jordan was. That's why John Paxson and Steve Kerr won rings. LeBron is Magic, setting up everyone else, then delivering the dagger. We think of Jordan as great because he could pace the game, hit those seemingly irrelevant shots, and then down the stretch deliver that dagger. They're fakes because they get you to the point, and if it matters, you're all over them but they know there's someone else who can take the shot when it breaks down, and they know you aren't guarding them.

What's executed down the stretch is different from the rest of the game. I'm always. Always. Someone who wants to be up 15 with 3 minutes to go. So-called "clutch" doesn't matter. Would I have plays to run against you in a close game? Of course. But my goal is to never be there. Clutch is overrated. You always either go to your best player or fake to deliver to your best shooter. If both fail it's the next guy who can take a shot. This isn't rocket science. Yet we obsess about it. Even though in the end luck is what always matters.

Not saying they would. I'd just rather pair him with Amar'e or Bosh than with Wade.

I'd rather pair him with Wade, Gallinari and Lee than Bosh. I'd rather send him to Miami with Wade and see what else you can get than nothing. (You can get Amare or Bosh along with them in this situation but it kills depth, I'd pass on Bosh and Amare for depth.) I'm assuming Amare stays in Phoenix and that Bosh waits for LeBron to decide or bails to his short list (more like does, he should go back home to Houston, maybe Dallas they'll figure it out), I wouldn't build around him. I talk to Wade to start.

Although I'm the type who would bring in LeBron and Wade, then punt the rest of my cap space while trying out what I've got, rookies and D-Leaguers just to get the chance at the 2011 bargins post-CBA. Overbuying in a single year is something the Pistons do.

[koberulz]

Still stuck on shooting to describe players.

When did I ever pretend this wasn't about scoring ability?

It does sometimes. If running the ball up and down the floor is the only way you can score, any decent slow-paced team will own you.

No, they won't. The slow-paced team will be run off the floor if they can't adjust. This isn't new research. Dean Oliver proved this back in the late 90s and it was basically proven over the last decade. Slowing the pace alone doesn't do anything for you.

Explain the Suns/Spurs series then. In any case, you're surely not suggesting that a plan for operating in the half court is completely unnecessary?

If I'm LeBron, have any sort of a post game, and have Chauncey Billups on my back in the post, why would I want to face him up and attempt a drive (and get stopped)?

Because you can completely blow past Chauncey and get a dunk or at least a foul. I'm the biggest Billups cocksucker that exists probably, but he won't be stopping LeBron in such a situation.

I've seen it happen, which is why I mentioned it. It won't happen every time, but it'll happen more often than if LeBron stuck with the post game.

Kobe had a post game before this year.

I'm not sure why you think four years ago was this year.

Because this is the year Kobe talked to Hakeem and practically replaced Gasol, becoming the greatest player in the history of the universe. Or something.
What were you referring to, then?

Absolutely, but he's more likely to have reached his ceiling as far as his shooting is concerned than as far as his post game is concerned.

You mean like Kobe did when he was "bricking" like LeBron in 2002-03?

...what exactly is that meant to mean?

LeBron has limited tools at his disposal with which he can effectively score, regardless of how effective those few tools may be. Better?

Nope. I give the ball to Kobe and ask him to score on my defense, what will he do if I give him ten possessions? I know he'll shoot a jumper on 7-8 on them no matter what.

I didn't mention Kobe.

LeBron, I don't know, he might destroy me on the way to the basket

Likely.

or bomb two threes in my face

Unlikely. He's not that good a three-point shooter. He's just as likely (more likely, even) to attempt to do that and brick four straight.

and then see if he can setup easy buckets for his teammates on the next eight.

Which isn't LeBron scoring.

I can't overplay him anywhere, Kobe I can throw crap at him and are Artest and Fisher to beat me (the Suns did this before they panicked about the Zone if you missed it)

And Kobe didn't pick them apart?

I'd rather send him to Miami with Wade and see what else you can get than nothing. (You can get Amare or Bosh along with them in this situation but it kills depth, I'd pass on Bosh and Amare for depth.)

Who're your bigs?

[NovU]

Sigh...

I am surprised benji even got this far, still having the patience to spare on this pointless case of Kobe nut hugging/hate bron,wade shit talk...

reading benji's posts, I can actually feel benji's frustration and pain dealing with bullcraps

[koberulz]

I apologize on my part of mess in this thread.

a thread that was originally about BASKETBALL.

I felt it was more of diarrhea with ego problem who just likes to prove everybody else wrong by pushing his absurd view on basketball.

But... again, I played along to it. Don't let me bother you anymore, koberulz. Carry on.

How about you hold to that and stop spamming this thread? Absurd though you may find this argument to be, at least I've actually managed to keep the discussion related to basketball, rather than feces. You responded to benji's initial post as though I was the one to derail this thread, when in fact you were the only one making posts entirely unrelated to the topic. Please stop making out as though I'm the one ruining this thread. I can't speak for benji, but I personally am finding this an enjoyable and informative discussion, and I'd thank you not to get this thread locked with your childishness.

[NovU]

but I personally am finding this an enjoyable

I don't know what to say... really...

[imefimef]

Kobe is not the leader of the Lakers people, it's Derek Fisher.

It's not always the best guy, but the ideal situation for a team looking to win championship is for its best player to be its best leader as well.

Ok, so you are saying the best player being the leader is IDEAL. DUH. No really DUH. but does that mean it's always so? NOPE. You just said it your self IT'S NOT ALWAYS THE BEST GUY. Exactly. You really need to take a debate class because all what you said is about how the best player SHOULD be the best IF a team really wants to win it all. How does that prove your point? and what point is that supposed to prove?

LeBron is better than Kobe IMO because like i said he isn't the best scorer but i think its safe to say hes the second best.

Well done sir. That's not self-contradictory at all..

No it isn't dumbass, there is a BIG/MAJOR difference between best SCORER and PLAYER. The difference is Kobe is the best SCORER as in he is wayyyy skilled when it comes to scoring compared to anybody else currently playing. Basketball is not just scoring tho. If it was, Pheonix would have won a few championships by now because they have offence. But teams like the Celtics, Lakers, Magics, Cavaliers are the elite teams because they do have offence BUT THEY ALSO HAVE GREAT DEFENCE, REBOUND THE BALL WELL and shit like that. So a player who is the second best scorer, coupled with his domination of everything else, is THE BEST PLAYER.

I mean freethrow shooting, jumpshots, in short offense, Kobe is better

Again, you're using my point to argue against me, which isn't going to get you very far.

Those are ALL OFFENSE.

but LeBron is actually more efficient in...3pt%than Kobe

This year. By something around 0.5%. Kobe Bryant shot significantly worse from three this year than most others. He's had shocking years before, but even with those his career average is still above LeBron's.

Um last season Kobe shot 35% as compared to 32% this season(3 less out of a hundred 3pts isn't that much) LeBron shot 34% last season as compared to 33% this season. Last season Kone attempted 4.1 3pts per game and LBJ attempted 4.6 last season with 35% and 34% respectively, seriously that not that different.

anyways so id rather have someone actually score more on less attempts.

With numbers that don't exist. Come back when LeBron's scored 52 points on 26 shots.

LBJs fg% was 50( no high profile scorer-DWADE, MELO, KOBE, DIRK etc score with 50% efficiency, except Steve Nash and he is barely breaking 15 ppg) and Kobes fg% is 46.

i'd take someone who is a jack of all trades than someone is is the master of just one.

So...someone who can shoot the three, get to the rim, post up, and play in the mid-range over someone who can only penetrate? Good to see we agree, then.

LeBron can also shoot the 3 with similar efficiency to Kobe, get to the rim better than Kobe, LeBron CAN POST UP TOO. Plus reagardless, all of those are OFFENSE-THAT IS JUST ONE ASPECT OF BASKETBALL(fyi i write in caps so that you can imagine me yelling this at you because you are obviously too special to get this)
I would reply to the other stuff you say, but Benji has posted more than enough stats that should be refutable for even a tard like you....well you have the ability to prove me wrong so i am going to brace my self just in case.

[koberulz]

Um last season Kobe shot 35% as compared to 32% this season(3 less out of a hundred 3pts isn't that much) LeBron shot 34% last season as compared to 33% this season. Last season Kone attempted 4.1 3pts per game and LBJ attempted 4.6 last season with 35% and 34% respectively, seriously that not that different.

How does this support your argument that LeBron is the better three-point shooter? All it does is disprove that; the margin by which it does so is completely irrelevant to your prior statement.

No it isn't dumbass, there is a BIG/MAJOR difference between best SCORER and PLAYER. The difference is Kobe is the best SCORER as in he is wayyyy skilled when it comes to scoring compared to anybody else currently playing. Basketball is not just scoring tho. If it was, Pheonix would have won a few championships by now because they have offence. But teams like the Celtics, Lakers, Magics, Cavaliers are the elite teams because they do have offence BUT THEY ALSO HAVE GREAT DEFENCE, REBOUND THE BALL WELL and shit like that. So a player who is the second best scorer, coupled with his domination of everything else, is THE BEST PLAYER.

...your claim is that he dominates every statistical category except the one he actually dominates? He's not a top-20 rebounder, he's fifth in assists, 16th in steals, doesn't make the top 20 for blocks...

LBJs fg% was 50( no high profile scorer-DWADE, MELO, KOBE, DIRK etc score with 50% efficiency, except Steve Nash and he is barely breaking 15 ppg) and Kobes fg% is 46.

Paul Pierce doesn't count? True shooting percentage of .613, compared to LeBron's .604. Kevin Durant is at .607, also above LeBron.

Effective field goal percentage comes closer to proving your point regarding 'high-profile scorers', but still has LeBron coming in behind Channing Frye, Steve Nash, Jason Richardson, Ray Allen and Troy Murphy. Among others, though big men generally do get the first few slots in such categories.

LeBron CAN POST UP TOO

Whether he can or not, he doesn't. So we might as well say he can't, because it doesn't really make a difference to what happens on the floor.

(fyi i write in caps so that you can imagine me yelling this at you because you are obviously too special to get this)

On the other hand, I can quote properly. Sucks to be me, I guess.

Hint: Less yelling, more thinking.

[Sauru]

can we get back to talking about feces please?

[rise]

Yeah, Sauru wants people talikng about him again

[Jackal]

Haha, says shit for brains.

[benji]

can we get back to talking about feces please?

If LeBron leaves it'll be a big Cleveland Steamer on the chest of the Cavaliers.

When did I ever pretend this wasn't about scoring ability?

Because nobody else considers the game to only be about shooting. And it doesn't really matter, we've already established that LeBron shoots from everywhere on the court just as the other five top scorers do. But LeBron maximizes his scoring efficiency by avoiding the dead zone more than the rest, getting to the line and hitting threes. (And by shooting from 16-23 foot range just as well as the others.)

(Also there's clearly a vocab difference here. Shooting != Scoring in mine.)

Explain the Suns/Spurs series then.

The Suns swept the Spurs outscoring them by 9.2 points a game and averaging 110 points a game?

In any case, you're surely not suggesting that a plan for operating in the half court is completely unnecessary?

I don't know why you would get this suggestion.

...what exactly is that meant to mean?

You're claiming that LeBron has peaked with his jumper, when Kobe hadn't peaked at the same age.

I must say, I enjoy the parse style. It would be an effective tactic on one who does not realize the goal or effect of such a debate style was to reduce larger logical arguments into semi-non-sequiturs. Then pick at the semi-non-sequiturs and ignore the larger argument. This post was full of them and I chose to ignore them rather than go back and rewrite everything for you. (There's also the possibility you don't understand what I'm saying, but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt.)

...your claim is that he dominates every statistical category except the one he actually dominates? He's not a top-20 rebounder, he's fifth in assists, 16th in steals, doesn't make the top 20 for blocks...

For players at his position who had played at least 1000 minutes, LeBron was 6th in rebounding, 1st in assisting, 12th in stealing, and 4th in shot blocking. Nobody else finishes in the top twelve in these categories, and nobody in the top six of the three.

Paul Pierce doesn't count? True shooting percentage of .613, compared to LeBron's .604. Kevin Durant is at .607, also above LeBron.

Pierce's year is almost certainly a fluke year stemming from his three point shooting.

Effective field goal percentage comes closer to proving your point regarding 'high-profile scorers', but still has LeBron coming in behind Channing Frye, Steve Nash, Jason Richardson, Ray Allen and Troy Murphy.

All of whom are three point shooters who rarely create their own shot (outside of Nash) and none of whom use anywhere near as many possessions as LeBron.

Whether he can or not, he doesn't. So we might as well say he can't

No, we shouldn't. That's taking two different words and giving them the same meaning.

[NovU]

http://espn.go.com/nba/features/freeagentslotmachine

After about 8 spins...

Lebron and Dirk in NYK? Now that's silly.

Best scenario: Wade, Lebron, Boozer all Heat.

[dare]

I tried that yesterday and it shows that Dirk can be in Phoenix

[rise]

I tried that yesterday and it shows that Dirk can be in Phoenix

Well, I'd like to see Dirk and Nash re-united in Phoenix w/ J-Rich and Grant Hill: damn that would be kickass but I spin that wheel thing like 20 times and Dirk hasn't moved from Dallas the whole time. Not once.
Anyways I got something crazy on the last spin:
LeBron and Bosh together in New Jersey
Wade and Amar'e on the Heat
Joe Johnson and Carlos Boozer together on Chicago.
Dirk still on Dallas
David Lee in NY
Imagine LeBron and Bosh together, causing total domination. But then again, they'd be in New Jersey.

and then in the next spin I got LeBron and Dirk together in Dallas!!!

EDIT: EVEN WACKIER: !!! Everyone in their original places except Amar'e going to NY !!! Strange...

[koberulz]

Explain the Suns/Spurs series then.

The Suns swept the Spurs outscoring them by 9.2 points a game and averaging 110 points a game?

Sorry, I somehow forgot they played each other this year. I meant the D'Antoni years.

You're claiming that LeBron has peaked with his jumper, when Kobe hadn't peaked at the same age.

The year he shot the highest percentage from three in his career and proceeded to set a new threes in a game, consecutive threes in a game, and threes in a half records? Really?

For players at his position who had played at least 1000 minutes, LeBron was 6th in rebounding, 1st in assisting, 12th in stealing, and 4th in shot blocking. Nobody else finishes in the top twelve in these categories, and nobody in the top six of the three.

How can one be said to dominate a category one does not lead in? Saying LeBron is a top-level, but not the best, scorer and absolutely owns the league in every other category is backwards.

How did you get those stats, anyway? I had to go through the league leaders, which can't be sorted by position and doesn't show more than a top 20.

Paul Pierce doesn't count? True shooting percentage of .613, compared to LeBron's .604. Kevin Durant is at .607, also above LeBron.

Pierce's year is almost certainly a fluke year stemming from his three point shooting.

Does it matter? He's scoring at a more efficient rate than LeBron, which imefimef claimed nobody did. Durant is also above LeBron.

Effective field goal percentage comes closer to proving your point regarding 'high-profile scorers', but still has LeBron coming in behind Channing Frye, Steve Nash, Jason Richardson, Ray Allen and Troy Murphy.

All of whom are three point shooters who rarely create their own shot (outside of Nash) and none of whom use anywhere near as many possessions as LeBron.

Again, though: scoring at a more efficient rate than LeBron.

Look, the guy's pretty much picked the right argument, he's just arguing it using numbers that don't exist, particularly with respect to comparing the three-point shots of LeBron and Kobe.

Whether he can or not, he doesn't. So we might as well say he can't

No, we shouldn't. That's taking two different words and giving them the same meaning.

What is the difference? A player who can't post up and a player that doesn't post up are the same player post-wise; they don't go there. Even so, we've pretty much established that he doesn't have a post game, as evidenced by having never used one despite the number of catches he gets in the post. If he had a post game, he'd use it once and again. On the other hand, if he does have one and won't use it even under such circumstances, I hardly see that his having one is relevant (or indeed if he can even be counted as having one at all).

[rise]

We know Kobe's the better shooter, we're just trying to tell you that LeBron will probably end up as good as Kobe if not better when Bron reaches his prime. He's just not there yet. He's only 25.

[Rip32]

This is the greatest LeBron-Kobe debate ever. I'm not sure if this is going to help, but just for clarification sake here's the definition of versatility:

1. Capable of doing many things competently.

Pass, Shoot, Rebound, Defend... there's a few things he can do alright I suppose.

Anyway, this is fun to read, I hope it continues.

I'm the biggest Billups cocksucker that exists probably

I lol'd.

Ok, so you are saying the best player being the leader is IDEAL. DUH. No really DUH. but does that mean it's always so? NOPE. You just said it your self IT'S NOT ALWAYS THE BEST GUY. Exactly. You really need to take a debate class because all what you said is about how the best player SHOULD be the best IF a team really wants to win it all. How does that prove your point? and what point is that supposed to prove?

Yeah, the leader of the Pistons' this year was Ben Wallace... he might be the best player, but I'd have doubts on that. My point is bad teams can have whoever the hell they want as a leader. I can almost guarantee the soft-spoken Brookie Cookie Lopez wasn't the leader of the Nets, but he's by far the best player on that god awful team.

You're right, the best player isn't always the leader, but if you're into winning basketball games, being a fan of winning basketball teams, or even playing on a winning basketball team, you're probably looking for a best player that leads, not a marginal player that tells everyone the right things and makes them feel all warm and fuzzy on the inside because their real leader just called them out for missing an open shot or not giving their all.