Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:19 am
Andrew wrote:Hedonist wrote:I don't see how that is all relevant.
You don't think the bottom dwellers get rewarded but an opportunity, but if it's the middle of the pack than you do?
No, I think in both cases it would be opportunity. But it seems to me that you're suggesting that giving the bottom teams the best odds in the lottery is rewarding tanking/teams sucking, which is why I bring up rewarding one or the other for either flat out sucking or being mediocre respectively. I don't see how being mediocre makes you any more worthy of having a better opportunity of getting the top pick than someone in more desperate need of new talent.
From the player's perspective, it wouldn't be much better for their careers as there's a good chance they'd be lower in the pecking order or even on the bench stuck behind an established veteran, which doesn't seem right for the top prospects who capable of contributing right away.
Injuries, retirement and just plain bad luck with free agents or draftees are relevant because you also seem to be suggesting that if a team sucks, it's their own fault and they should just do a better job. While that certainly may be true, and poorly managed teams do continue to dwell in the basement, it's not always the case. Hindsight is 20/20, as they say; it's easy to look back at a Draft a couple of years ago and suggest what teams should and shouldn't have done, but there's always going to be can't-miss prospects that flop and teams that look great on paper falling apart for one reason or another. Teams can appear to do everything right, but still have everything end up going wrong.
You can't fairly say a team that's at the bottom of the league necessarily deserves to be there.
If we flip the lottery system on its head, we're punishing all future basement teams for the transgressions of a few, the few that are legitimately and undeniably tanking. And seeing as though tanking doesn't guarantee anything except the chance they might get one of the top three picks, I say let them take the risk. If they're willing to lose face, alienate fans and potentially turn away free agents on the slim chance they'll get the top pick and the Next Big Thing coming out of college, that's their risk to take.
Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:49 am
Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:32 pm
Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:35 pm
Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:25 pm
Andrew wrote:But again, tanking is difficult to prove.
I do agree that it's up to teams to help themselves, but again I return to the question of "how?".
If they have no valuable trade assets and can't be players in the free agent market, the only option is the Draft.
Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:29 pm
I think it's fair to say that you think it is important that every franchise will have a banner up in the rosters a hundred years from now? I don't.
As for big talents rotting on the bench when drafted high by the nr.17 etc. I don't think any nr. 17 would bench Derrick Rose, Blake Griffin or LeBron James. In a weak draft or in case all their starter places are locked (would be weird for a #17, but still) they probably would draft based on need. I don't expect major talents to suffer big time. High picks get traded plenty too, I'm not worried that would happen.
Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:02 pm
Andrew wrote:I think it's fair to say that you think it is important that every franchise will have a banner up in the rosters a hundred years from now? I don't.
No, no, I wouldn't go that far. But do think every team should have a chance at the new talent coming in and I'm fine with the teams that fared the worst the previous season having the best chance of getting a high draft pick. In all honesty, it doesn't seem to be working out that badly for the league.
As for big talents rotting on the bench when drafted high by the nr.17 etc. I don't think any nr. 17 would bench Derrick Rose, Blake Griffin or LeBron James. In a weak draft or in case all their starter places are locked (would be weird for a #17, but still) they probably would draft based on need. I don't expect major talents to suffer big time. High picks get traded plenty too, I'm not worried that would happen.
Well, taking Blake Griffin as an example, what if the Suns had won the lottery having the best odds to do so under the system you're suggesting? Neither he nor Amar'e is really suited to play centre in the NBA so there's a situation to sort out there. And if they can't play alongside one another, one is going to have to go to the bench. You mention teams getting stacked...if the middle of the pack teams have the best odds of getting a top three pick, won't it just lead to more stacked teams?
Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:20 pm
Topickiller. It kind of means you're fine with the bunch of expiring contracts absorbing teams too then I suppose.
Besides that, I don't think teams shouldn't be entitled to any kind of chance whatsoever. We simply disagree on that.
Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:18 pm
Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:37 pm
Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:14 am
Andrew wrote:Topickiller. It kind of means you're fine with the bunch of expiring contracts absorbing teams too then I suppose.
I don't mean to kill the topic, but it does seem we've been saying the same things for a few posts now. At some point, I think we have to agree to disagree.
I think the situation with expiring contracts is a product of how out of control some salaries have become. With $10 mil contracts becoming the norm for above average players, it's put teams in a bad situation with the cap and now the luxury tax too and teams are doing what they can to trim the payroll.
Besides that, I don't think teams shouldn't be entitled to any kind of chance whatsoever. We simply disagree on that.
I guess so, but I would like to clarify I'm not talking about a handout. I think every time has a right to get better and be competitive, but it's still up to them to draft well, not sign people to ridiculous contracts that they can't perform up to and make the right trades. I certainly can't deny that.
Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:05 am
Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:28 pm
Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:16 pm
Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:30 pm
Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:51 pm
Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:09 pm
Calamaro wrote:May I ask why did you choose that username?
Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:07 pm
Hedonist wrote:I thought the username is fun because of the double meaning.
Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:47 am
Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:48 pm
Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:15 pm
Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:19 pm
Mayerhendrix wrote:The expansion draft system works well-enough as it is; apart from the Charlotte Bobcats and the Memphis Grizzlies, most of the recent expansion franchises have more-or-less become integrated into the general competitive flow of the NBA. It's tough for the deep team losing a quality player, but it's hard to find any current NBA team that has 9+ or 10+ irreplaceable players. Even on the defending-champ Lakers, you'd have most of the main guys protected and at most players like Sasha Vujacic, D.J. Mbenga, Josh Powell, or MAYBE even Adam Morrison being made available. Hardly a major blow to a team that's losing such players; if anything, the newly created franchises have a harder task out of actually building a rising squad around bottom-of-the-roster scrubs, I.R. waste-oids, and such players.