The All-White All-Time Team

I came across this site today: http://whitebasketball.blogspot.com/
It prompted Cryanide to question who the best white player ever was. I suggested it was probably Bird, with Pettit as the second choice. With West, Stockton and Nowitzki rounding out a top five. (Not necessarily in that order.) And realized that looked like a pretty good All-White All-Time First Team.

Then I thought of some other "great whites" and decided to ask what if you made a team out of only white guys? I noticed there were a lot of really good players who only occasionally get brought up, so I thought it'd be fun.

I've generally accepted the common idea league history needs to be seperated into three distinct periods when making "all-time" teams: pre-shot clock, pre-merger, post-merger. (Although lately I've been thinking more about pre-shot clock, pre-three pointer, ABA interregnum, post-three pointer. And don't get me started on splitting it even more, like down to the season or something wacky.)

Now, pre-shot clock, your list of the "All-White Team" is a list of the twelve best players in the league. It's the other two I was interested in. Now, I've taken a few liberties with these, i.e. Dan Issel played both before and after the merger, but the bulk of his career comes after. Also took tiny liberties with positions. Like usual, I'm looking for a longevity vs. quality balance.

We'll start with post-merger since more people on here will be familar with them and it's most likely to drive any debate. I'm only including some basic stats, you're on the internet, you can go find the rest.

Pos.	Player	P/36	R/36	A/36	PER	Playoff PER
C	Kevin McHale	20.7	8.5	2.0	20.0	19.4
F	Dirk Nowitzki	22.4	8.4	2.6	23.8	24.4
F	Larry Bird	22.8	9.4	6.0	23.5	21.4
G	Paul Westphal	22.0	2.7	6.2	19.4	16.4
G	John Stockton	14.9	3.1	11.9	21.8	19.8
6	Jeff Hornacek	16.6	3.9	5.6	17.7	16.5
7	Detlef Schrempf	16.9	7.5	4.1	17.2	14.7
8	Steve Nash	16.7	3.4	9.3	20.0	19.5
9	Dan Issel	23.7	9.6	2.5	21.4	20.1
10	Arvydas Sabonis	17.8	10.9	3.1	21.2	18.0
11	Chris Mullin	20.0	4.5	3.9	18.8	15.7
12	Jason Kidd	13.4	6.5	8.9	18.6	18.1

Kidd's only allowed to play 24 minutes of regulation and two and a half minutes of an overtime period. I really want to put Bobby Jones over Mullin, but I couldn't decide and just kept Mullin where he is. I'll try and pretend I think Mullin was better and had a higher peak.

Others to consider:

Pos.	Player	P/36	R/36	A/36	PER	Playoff PER
C	Jack Sikma	16.8	10.5	3.4	17.3	14.7
C	Bill Laimbeer	14.6	11.0	2.3	16.1	14.4
C	Vlade Divac	14.3	9.9	3.8	17.7	16.6
F	Pedja Stojakovic	18.6	5.1	1.9	17.6	15.1
F	Tom Chambers	21.3	7.1	2.4	16.5	14.1
F	Kiki Vandeweghe	23.5	4.1	2.4	18.4	16.4
G	Dan Majerle	13.0	5.1	3.3	13.8	13.1
F	Bobby Jones	15.9	8.0	3.5	18.1	16.5
F	Pau Gasol	19.0	8.8	3.2	21.8	20.9
G	Manu Ginobili	19.2	5.3	4.6	21.5	20.4
C	Bill Walton	16.9	13.4	4.3	20.0	18.6
G	Mark Price	18.3	3.1	8.1	19.6	17.2
F	Andrei Kirilenko	14.5	6.7	3.3	19.5	14.9
C	Zydrunas Ilgauskus	17.8	9.8	1.5	19.2	16.5
C	Jeff Ruland	18.7	11.0	3.3	18.7	17.8
C	Brad Miller	14.4	9.3	3.6	18.1	15.2
C	Gheorge Muresan	16.2	10.5	0.8	18.1	3.8
C	Rik Smits	20.1	8.2	1.9	17.9	18.4
C	Mehmet Okur	17.0	8.8	2.1	17.6	14.3
F	Toni Kukoc	15.9	5.8	5.1	17.3	16.5
F	Christian Laettner	15.5	8.1	3.1	16.9	14.7
G	Sarunas Marciulionis	20.5	3.6	3.6	16.7	17.9
G	Brent Barry	12.9	4.2	4.4	15.7	12.0
G	Drazen Petrovic	20.9	3.1	3.3	16.4	10.2

I could easily see replacing Mullin with Gasol, if he stays healthy Hornacek with Manu and Shcrempf with a good number of guys if you're preferring "prime level" to longevity. Not to mention as guys like Calderon, Lee, Love, etc. develop and continue playing.

I'll get to the pre-merger team if there's enough interest in the thread, but I won't complain if others get there first. Here's where you start: Bob Pettit and Jerry West. Some names you'll want to consider include Bob Cousy, Dolph Schayes (iffy, I know, but he plays his best after the shot clock probably), Rick Barry, Pete Maravich, Billy Cunningham, John Havlicek, Dave Cowens.

Oh, and I order you to ask, prod, poke and criticize.

Jason Kidd is half-black, so I'm not sure he fits. its like making a list of white politicians and including Obama.

Gheorge Muresan is the most surprising name on any of those lists for me. His play-off PER makes me laugh though, same with Drazen Petrovic but I guess when you die these things aren't a factor anymore. Since you've done a lot of the work An all-white all-Euro team would be interesting, I'd probably go with Sabonis - Nowitzki - Kirilenko - Marciulionis - Kevin Garnett. One of the more interesting things is the huge amount of C's there. I might (see: one day) do a comparison of black/white C's from a certain time period because after looking at that I'm curious as to which race has been the most effective in that position overall. I know Wilt/Russell/Hakeem/Robinson etc are the standouts but it's the tier below that I'm interested in.

That being said, I'm guessing most people see Sabonis as the obvious choice in the first team, but if you're looking at a balance of longevity and quality Ilgauskas has been doing it for longer. Not quite as good as Sabonis obviously, but he's had 11 consistent and quality years in the league compared to 7. If he gets away from Shaq/Cleveland and plays well for another couple of seasons I'd have him in over Sabonis.

Or you could see the 24mpg thing I wrote as an shoddy attempt to head off a thread what will be dominated by "Where's Kidd?" "Kidd's black!" "NO HE'S NOT FAG HE'S WHITE" blah blah blah.

Include him or don't, I don't give a crap.

EDIT: I was including Sabonis' domination of Europe in my consideration. The fact that he came over here after he became basically immobile and still was an All-Star caliber center just adds to it. Ilgauskas IS probably a better NBA-only pick.

I think Muresan was injured or something and tried to play.

Ah, overlooked that, sorry. Mike Bibby = my starting PG for my black player team.

Pretty interesting that ONLY Nowitzki y Marciulonis have a better playoff PER

Or you could see the 24mpg thing I wrote as an shoddy attempt to head off a thread what will be dominated by "Where's Kidd?" "Kidd's black!" "NO HE'S NOT FAG HE'S WHITE" blah blah blah.

I actually came into this thread to see that exact argument... kind of sad you wrote it off so quickly..

How about Tim Duncan then?

Alright, since it's obvious nobody wants to even degrade this into a list thread of their own teams I'll address the recent question and the failed snark I ignored from earlier.

Tim Duncan didn't have a white parent that I'm aware of, or Google is aware of. Nor does Mike Bibby have one. Jason Kidd directly has an Irish mother and black father, and has more European features, so every stupid idiot wants to constantly bring it up even though it doesn't really matter because it's quite simple to say "if Kidd/whoever counts, blah blah blah" if anyone doesn't want to be an idiot.

There's also Rick Fox, Doug Christie, Boris Diaw, and Shane Battier you can whine about and dick around with some stupid irrelevant argument since they actually had a white parent, include them if you want to, I didn't think they met the cut above. The one person I did forget is Tony Parker, although I'm sure I overlooked "blatantly" white people in compiling my "others to consider" list.

And really, I don't give a shit if you want to include Dikembe Mutombo, Yao Ming and Manute Bol in your "All-White All-Time" Team. It's not my job to make you guys appear intelligent or save you from any repercussions if you don't.

Steve Kerr = 5 rings = best whitie ever

To be honest, I'd put Kerr over Kidd as my twelfth man no matter what. Look what he did for the 2003 Spurs, not to mention the Bulls. I'd play him over Westphal in a close game.

I'd be tempted to put Walton into the top twelve, though since that team is post-merger that doesn't really leave a lot of years where his career hasn't been derailed by injuries. If we can extend that list to the whole of the shotclock era, I'd put Walton in ahead of Kidd.

I support any thread thats about white people in the nba.
Though my lack of knowledge on the subject, prohibits me from joining in on the fun.

Team of active white players. Toughest emissions are the 2009-10 Toronto Raptors, Brook Lopez and Jeff Foster. Meh, I never have anything of substance to contribute to discussion anyway.

C - Pau Gasol
PF - Dirk Nowitzki
SF - Andrei Kirilenko
SG - Manu Ginobili
PG - Steve Nash
----------
6 - Mehmet Okur
7 - Jason Kidd
8 - Andris Biedrins
9 - Mike Miller
10 - David Lee
11 - Brad Miller
12 - Kirk Hinrich
----------
IR1 - Zydrunas Ilgauskas
IR2 - Troy Murphy
IR3 - Luis Scola

i always thought price was better than those stats show. tom chambers is one of my fav players ever so he makes my team


kinda want to see your pre merger list

I think you forgot to include the "Respect" column

Team of active white players. Toughest emissions are the 2009-10 Toronto Raptors, Brook Lopez and Jeff Foster. Meh, I never have anything of substance to contribute to discussion anyway.

C - Pau Gasol
PF - Dirk Nowitzki
SF - Andrei Kirilenko
SG - Manu Ginobili
PG - Steve Nash
----------
6 - Mehmet Okur
7 - Jason Kidd
8 - Andris Biedrins
9 - Mike Miller
10 - David Lee
11 - Brad Miller
12 - Kirk Hinrich
----------
IR1 - Zydrunas Ilgauskas
IR2 - Troy Murphy
IR3 - Luis Scola

Needs more Jose Calderon! [/homerism]

I had him and Bargs on the list, and was considering Hedo and others, but I decided to save space and just emit the whole team, despite them being my second favorite. I didn't include Joel Pryzbilla or Rudy Fernandez from my first favorite either though.

i always thought price was better than those stats show.

He definitely could have had a better career especially if he wasn't hampered by injuries late in his career.

Bobby Hurley I thought was one wasted white talent. He could have done something special.

Well, he did nearly die in that car accident.

I don't think Manu Ginobili and Pau Gasol are considered "white." Aren't they considered hispanics? Pau maybe since that's europe, but south american manu ginobili?

Ginobili's family are originally Italian immigrants to Argentina. And "hispanic" merely means of Spanish origin.

But again, you're missing the point.

Here's mine (hope I didn't forget anybody):

STARTERS
C- Bill Walton
PF- Kevin McHale
SF- Larry Bird
SG- Jeff Hornacek
PG- John Stockton

BENCH
C- Dan Issel
PF- Dirk Nowitzki
SF- Tom Chambers
SG- Paul Westphal
PG- Steve Nash
PF- David Lee
PG- Mark Price

IR
C- Arvydas Sabonis
SG- Drazen Petrovic
SG- Manu Ginobili

My roster has Bill Walton from Championship year Blazers. I have gone with low post master in Kevin McHale to start with Bird in the frontcourt being the star of the team. Hornacek wouldn't have made my team were it not for Stockton being the starting PG. Hornacek is the 5th option on offence but can drill the midrange jumper. I've found a spot on my bench for David Lee for spot energy rebounding minutes. Was looking for Dave Cowens but remembered that he was pre-merger guy.

My team's success relies on strong ball movement & hitting the open jumpshot. It's leaders have toughness.

Here's mine (hope I didn't forget anybody):

STARTERS
C- Bill Walton
PF- Kevin McHale
SF- Larry Bird
SG- Jeff Hornacek
PG- John Stockton

BENCH
C- Dan Issel
PF- Dirk Nowitzki
SF- Tom Chambers
SG- Paul Westphal
PG- Steve Nash
PF- David Lee
PG- Mark Price

IR
C- Arvydas Sabonis
SG- Drazen Petrovic
SG- Manu Ginobili

My roster has Bill Walton from Championship year Blazers. I have gone with low post master in Kevin McHale to start with Bird in the frontcourt being the star of the team. Hornacek wouldn't have made my team were it not for Stockton being the starting PG. Hornacek is the 5th option on offence but can drill the midrange jumper. I've found a spot on my bench for David Lee for spot energy rebounding minutes. Was looking for Dave Cowens but remembered that he was pre-merger guy.

My team's success relies on strong ball movement & hitting the open jumpshot. It's leaders have toughness.

Mark Price over Jason Kidd? Really? I'd think Kidd would be a lock for this roster.

with nash already off the bench having a shooter like price would be better imo. who needs a 3rd pg who is never gonna see minutes when you can have a great shooter for certain situations

Here's mine (hope I didn't forget anybody):

I'm guessing you're doing post-merger, not all-time? Otherwise I'd definitely put Jerry West and Bob Pettit in there.