The Big Man Myth

[EGarrett]

I've noticed a lot of people saying that there are no more great big men in the NBA...just a bunch of power forwards playing a once great position. The truth is that there are more quality big men now than ever before in the NBA, but none of them want to stand under the basket. Look at the great big men of the past and think what you'd be saying about them today...

Bill Russell 6'9.5" 220...a power forward today...
Wilt Chamberlain 7'1" 275...a center...
Wes Unseld 6'7" 245...an undersized power forward today...
Walt Bellamy 6'11" 240...good height but not bulky enough...a power forward...
Bill Walton 6'10" 230...a power forward today...
Dave Cowens 6'9" 230...a power forward today...
George Mikan 6'10" 240...a power forward today...
Kareem Abdul Jabbar 7'2" 230...very slight but could be a center...
Bob McAdoo 6'11" 230 or so...too slight...would be a power forward playing center...

Notice a pattern? You have 2 or 3 guys with the legit size to play center and the rest are what we would call power forwards playing center today. Compare that to today's good big men...

Shaquille O'Neal 7'1" 340
Tim Duncan 7'0" 260
Dikembe Mutombo 7'2" 265
Alonzo Mourning 6'10" 260
Rasheed Wallace 6'11" 230
Kevin Garnett 6'11" 225
Chris Webber 6'10" 245
Dirk Nowitzki 7'0" 245
Ben Wallace 6'9" 245

I don't think there's any doubt that those guys would be great big men in any era...and that's not even counting the guys that are just retiring this year or the next. The new guys have so many skills that they don't play under the basket as much as they should. There are just as many great big men of today as there were at any time in the league... but we arbitrarily decided at some point that the 6'9" and 6'10" guys weren't centers anymore...though they're still under the basket playing the position. The evolution of skills in big men has caused a lot of people to apparently forget that they are there. So don't cry for the death of the great big man in the NBA...just open your eyes.

[scubilete]

It's interesting how people find different meanings for the word big man, but you are right, if you go for the size, they are more than ever. However, I would like to make a comment, it's not that there are not big man or centers, it is that there are not great (big) ones like used to be bfore. Ewing & Olajuwon are out, Mourning is injured, you look at your list and for real there are only 3 centers, and just 1 of them is playing now, Shaq, lol. I remember the bulls years where Cartwright was just defense, nobody would give him credit but being a winner against Ewing makes him great, that's just without talking about his years with the knicks. Laimbeer, a very outstanding center who never got credit but was a winner as well, so something is attached to him cause he did win against the greatest Jabbar, you could count that Jabbar was too old but it's just an xcuse. Parish, another one, winner, between the great ones, now added to that list is Ewing & Olajuwon, and Robinson (pretty soon) 3 hall of famers & members of the greatest 50 in NBA history. I believe that what people are complaining is the greatness of the big men in the center position. All those you mentioned there as old centers are the best ones because they dominated the game anyway they wanted (you forgot Moses Malone). However, in the other list, you just have Shaq & Zo as dominant centers, cause all others like Duncan are not oficially centers, they are just oversized power forwards. I remember those days when the power forward position was 6-9, now you find those 6-9 as small forwards cause the size of those mentioned. Charles Oakley & Karl Malone, are original PF from that time and now they have to face those 7 footers.

Now, that you mentioned those Great PFs, without doubt about it they have a place in history, and they are big men but what do you think, are people complaining for the size or the greatness of the playing centers?

To tell you the truth, I don't think people are complaining for their size, cause there you have also Bradley, Yao, Ilgauskas, Sabonis, people watch them playing everyday, don't think they are blind to think those guys are small or not tall.

[MajaFiggaz_Early!]

Chalre Barkley 6'4 250-280 - Power forward any era.

Given todays game, Walton, WIlt, Bellamy, Mikan, McAdoo & Kareem would still be centers.

[Rens]

Those guys you all mentioned are all roughly the same size, plus you didn't mention the likes of, for example, Antonio Davis, Brian Grant, Tony Battie, Kurt Thomas, Shawn Kemp, Cliff Robinson, Theo Ratliff, Pau Gasol. And those are just starters. A lot of teams have even more undersized players playing backup center.

Besides, out of those players of these days you mentioned:

Shaquille O'Neal 7'1" 340
Tim Duncan 7'0" 260
Dikembe Mutombo 7'2" 265
Alonzo Mourning 6'10" 260
Rasheed Wallace 6'11" 230
Kevin Garnett 6'11" 225
Chris Webber 6'10" 245
Dirk Nowitzki 7'0" 245
Ben Wallace 6'9" 245

Only 3 are centers, the rest are forwards.

[scubilete]

Only 3 are centers, the rest are forwards.

I completely agree with you and like it's just what I said, also from those 3 centers, just one is playing, the other 2 are out for the season practically.

I don't think people is complaining about their size but the quality the center position have now, who's going to be the starting center for the Eastern Conference in the all star game?, some rookie or someone we don't consider is a real super star to face Shaq.

[scubilete]

OK, I missed it, Jermaine O'Neal would be considered the starter and he is an all star but doesn't have the quality to stop his rival, Shaq.

[EGarrett]

you look at your list and for real there are only 3 centers, and just 1 of them is playing now, Shaq,

Yes, I know those guys are forwards. Compare their size to the previous centers...if all those players played back then they'd be centers. There's just as much great talent at that size but it's spread out across the three frontcourt positions. If we used old standards that's how many good and great centers we'd have playing now...more than any single previous era (keep in mind the list of old players stretches across 30-40 years).

[f.t.w.]

I think that the talent and size is in the league now more than (or at least as much as) ever. My opinion of why people complain about there not being quality big men anymore is that the rules make it difficult for anyone short of a freak of nature (i.e. Shaq) to play in the post in what has been considered a conventional way.
When I watch ESPN Classic, the big men are camped out in the lane on offense and defense. I don't think I want the NBA of today to be like that. I don't want illegal defense to be as complicated as it was either. Overall I'm not dissatisfied with todays game, but if I were to change anything (as if I could) I would simplify the rules to junior YBA level. That might be what would bring the traditional big men back from the perimeter. Less is more!

[Andrew]

I have no objections to the evolution of the big man, though I think the most effective guys are the Hakeem Olajuwons and David Robinsons, who were versatile, could handle the ball, had great range on their jumpshots for their position, but could also take care of business inside.

I agree about the whole illegal defense rules. One of the reasons I enjoy basketball much more than sports such as soccer is that the players, for the most part, have so much more freedom on the court. There is no offside, and upon scoring, there is no stoppage, the game just keeps going (unless there was an infraction involved with the basket).

Having said that, I think some rules should be in place that would give bigger players a greater advantage despite how immobile, unathletic or unskilled they are. You shouldn't be able to just place your tallest player under the basket at either end without any restrictions (such as the three second violation). It would probably be an effective strategy, but not one that is particularly ingenius or exciting to watch.

As far as the issue of talented big men goes, of course they exist, and yes, some of them are small by big man standards. But I think when we say "big man", we automatically think of centres, despite the fact many power forwards are the same size (and in some cases bigger) than the starting centre. When talking about good centres, the list is fairly short. All you need to do is look at the All-Star Ballot:

EAST

T. Battie, Boston Celtics
E. Campbell, New Orleans Hornets
A. Davis, Toronto Raptors
B. Grant, Miami Heat
H. Grant, Orlando Magic
Z. Ilgauskas, Cleveland Cavaliers
T. MacCulloch, Philadelphia 76ers
B. Miller, Indiana Pacers
D. Mutombo, New Jersey Nets
T. Ratliff, Atlanta Hawks
K. Thomas, New York Knickerbockers
B. Wallace, Detroit Pistons

WEST

M. Camby, Denver Nuggets
E. Dampier, Golden State Warriors
V. Divac, Sacramento Kings
R. LaFrentz, Dallas Mavericks
Y. Ming, Houston Rockets
R. Nesterovic, Minnesota Timberwolves
S. O'Neal, Los Angeles Lakers
M. Olowokandi, Los Angeles Clippers
D. Robinson, San Antonio Spurs
A. Sabonis, Portland Trail Blazers
J. Tsakalidis, Phoenix Suns
L. Wright, Memphis Grizzlies

As with most years, most of the centres on the ballot are considered decent or serviceable, but there's only a couple who are great players. The 80s and 90s saw quite a few good to great centres, but I don't think there were ever more than half of the teams in the league with a good starting centre. There's been a lot of great big men in NBA history, but they are spread across the different eras.

[scubilete]

I agree with all the comments, specially that the talent in the big men is there if we are talking about those 7 footers PF, but if you remember in all the NBA History, you have seen match ups between great centers. Chamberlain & Russell, Jabbar & Walton or Moses Malone, even in the 80's or 90's you saw D. Robinson, Ewing, Olajuwon. Everytime we've seen some good match between the quality and their stats, I remember when Jordan first retired that Olajuwon & Robinson started to establish their game. Not to mention Shaq, Ewing and even Mourning. but right now, you start to see that there's no match for Shaq in the league, of course you can take one of those like Divac and play him hard and do a good match, but not like we used to see before, there was more competition for him I think. If you take a PF like those 7 footers to play center, let's say against shaq, they will not come with those numbers they come everynight, at least not with the same shooting percentage because they are used to play a different position. All of you have seen Portland playing the Lakers, a bunch of PF, trying to stop him few years ago, none of them had effect, D.Davis, B.Grant, even J.O'neal was in the group I believe. I hope Yao Ming start showing consistency and make a good match against Shaq, and other centers start showing some improvement cause if not the league would depend on the showmen Shooting Guards which is not a bad idea but all the comments about people

saying that there are no more great big men in the NBA

will stay. There are Great PF but Centers right now, the league needs more competition.

[Rens]

I think also that the definition of "talented big man" needs some more deepening.. a player who can dribble, rebound, block, steal, assist and score is he less talented than a guy who can rebound and score inside? I don't think so.
There's just been a change in the game. Remember teams used to play without a real PG before Cousy came (I believe it was him who really "invented" that position, could be wrong, but it wasn't played early in the game).. positions just evolve over the course of years.
Great big men these days are guys like Garnett and Nowitzki who can do it all. Ofcourse, guys like Shaq and Duncan who are great power players are great and their game is very effective, but the way Dirk and Kevin play is what people want to see and what young kids pattern their game after.