Chicago Bulls Thread

[air gordon]

way to keep the thread alive andrew

i thought nocioni has been doing ok- he's the only other frontcourt player on the team that can hit/willing to take a perimeter shot outside of Gooden. by default he has to play anyway w/gooden & deng out. he hit some big shots last nite- too bad they couldn't get any stops late 4th qtr and too bad Hughes happened. talk about forced shots lol. thought they were going to steal a 'w'

a few things here...

what is up w/Mike MIller? maybe his newfound passive style of playing is his way of quietly asking for a trade. it wasn't just this game- it's been the whole season, before and after this ankle injury. i think only in 1 game did i actually see MIller aggressive. and that was against the Spurs when Parker went bonkers too. i think they wolves should trade him already. youth is being served and foye's play has turned miller into a guy who just swings the ball around the perimeter

as usual i can't stand Noah. how can you be considered an "energy" player when you get tired after a few minutes??!! get rid of this guy

speaking of trades- a few weeks back, Paxson was on record saying he's been trying to make a trade/shake up the team. tons of speculation out there but so far nothing. i think when hinrich comes back a trade will finally happen

when gooden comes back- i hope thomas keeps his minutes.. at Gray's expense. and am i the only one who has forgotten that deng is out lol? as a fan, i'm glad i don't have to wonder if deng will bring his 'A' game anymore

[Doobie]

Do you Bull's fan think that Bull's should rebuild and trade everyone but Derrick Rose? Try to aquire a decent big and keep Ben Gordon and Noce' would be nice to surround D. Rose with perimiter players. I don't know, but I think Hinrich, Deng, Hughes, and just about most of the team, they all gotta go.

[Andrew]

i thought nocioni has been doing ok- he's the only other frontcourt player on the team that can hit/willing to take a perimeter shot outside of Gooden. by default he has to play anyway w/gooden & deng out. he hit some big shots last nite- too bad they couldn't get any stops late 4th qtr and too bad Hughes happened. talk about forced shots lol. thought they were going to steal a 'w'

I read that Hughes is still upset with his minutes and feels he should have a bigger role on the team, apparently if he doesn't get his 30 minutes he can't be effective. If he wants more time, maybe he should prove he'd make use of it in a way that would benefit the team by, say, not playing like overpaid garbage. I think this is where they needed a veteran head coach too, someone who'll keep Hughes in line and put a stop to all this whining he's doing in the media. That's not to say they should take away his freedom of speech but he should be made aware of his obligations and the importance of team goals, as well as the consequences of "condutct detrimental to the team".

as usual i can't stand Noah. how can you be considered an "energy" player when you get tired after a few minutes??!! get rid of this guy

Every so often he'll make a nice play but I wholeheartedly agree. A year or two before he declared for the draft, I remember reading articles that had him pegged as the possible number one (or at least top three) pick. That just boggles the mind...perhaps another example of a good college player, ordinary NBA player? Maybe winning a couple of national championships with the Gators boosted his stock a little too much. Right now, I would've preferred Spencer Hawes.

speaking of trades- a few weeks back, Paxson was on record saying he's been trying to make a trade/shake up the team. tons of speculation out there but so far nothing. i think when hinrich comes back a trade will finally happen

Sounds more likely, though you have to wonder what trade value he has right now.

when gooden comes back- i hope thomas keeps his minutes.. at Gray's expense. and am i the only one who has forgotten that deng is out lol? as a fan, i'm glad i don't have to wonder if deng will bring his 'A' game anymore

I'd like to see Thomas keep his minutes too, though I do like Gray. He's certainly exceeded expectations as a low second round pick.

Do you Bull's fan think that Bull's should rebuild and trade everyone but Derrick Rose? Try to aquire a decent big and keep Ben Gordon and Noce' would be nice to surround D. Rose with perimiter players. I don't know, but I think Hinrich, Deng, Hughes, and just about most of the team, they all gotta go.

I'd say everyone but Rose and Gordon. I like Deng, but I'm not nearly as confident as a lot of Bulls fans are/were that he'll be a star and despite all the anti-Gordon sentiment before this season, I'd rather keep the guy who can score 20 ppg as opposed to Deng who seems to have regressed even further and is injured again. With Rose, Hinrich has become expendable and Hughes just needs to go. That's not to say everyone but Rose and Gordon must go but if trades are to be made then those are the only two players I'd prefer the Bulls to keep off the table.

[air gordon]

andrew- it took some time but finally the other shoe fell. hughes had up until now kept his mouth shut and had been playing pretty well.. even hitting some big shots for them. but he's a douche and unfortunately he has to play because of the injuries. the del negro hiring will forever remain a mystery to me. having frank drebin, er, i mean del harris and bernie bickerstaff as assistant coaches is a decent consolation. at least hughes was fined

i still don't know what noah's deal is. he seemed like a court smart-shane battier type player who was athletic for his size. you don't see any of that since he's come to the league
hawes i thought was too slow and that his game wouldn't translate well in the nba but now he looks like the better player

gray is ok in spurts but you can't leave him out there for extended time and expect to win. Al Jefferson killed him last nite. and when gray had chances to score on him, he choked. he has this habit of making unnecessary pivots/fakes when he can go straight up for a good shot.

as the season chugs along, i think the Gordon FA status will become a bigger story. is it possible that Gordon played his cards right this past offseason by not taking the 5yr/50mil contract?? it is a small sample size for so far but he is the one, not Deng, that has meshed well with Rose. his play has been steady and he's been healthy, unlike that other guy.

doobs- i'm on board w/you and andrew. the current mix of players would be great if a superstar was added to mix. however that's not the case. it's a strange situation. the coach hired has no coaching experience and if the roster ever gets turned over, he won't be the coach for that team. a fine mess lol

[Andrew]

As much as I hate to see Deng struggle, I do feel a little vindicated by the situation as everyone seemed to be dumping on Gordon before the season began but instead he's been one of their steadiest players alongside Rose while Deng has shown no signs of being the star he's been pegged to be and that big contract looks like a downright terrible decision. If they end up losing Gordon because of Deng's contract and the luxury tax then that will just be really disheartening way to cap off a series of blunders with the supposed "bad decision" - keeping Gordon - turning out to be the better path but the road not taken. I'm counting on him being more valuable to the Bulls than other teams, many of whom are eyeing 2010's free agent class rather than 2009.

[Mandich]

Yes, true that. And also I think that if Gordon struggles it isn't that serious as when Deng struggles. The Bulls have a good backup in Hinrich in the guard position, and not that good of a backup in forward position. Deng contract is enormous and he has to show why did the Bulls pay him so much

[Andrew]

Gordon has his off-shooting nights but I do like that he has that "scorer's mentality", that willingness to put shots up and take shots he knows he is capable of knocking down. He'll also make the pass though so it's not too much of a destructive scorer's mentality. Deng has a tendency to be tentative and unselfish to a fault, getting into areas where he can score but then passing up on the attempt (sometimes midshot) and passing off to a teammate who isn't expecting the ball, often leading to a turnover or shot clock violation.

I think that's one of the Bulls' biggest problems on offense. They're not the most talented team offensively but they do have players who possess the tools to score more than they do, but outside Gordon, Rose and Nocioni it often seems like they're reluctant to shoot. The team won't profit from bad attempts of course but their tentativeness seems to lead to bad attempts anyway and with fewer attempts, you're naturally going to have a tougher time putting points up on the board. I was hoping that mentality was just a result of Skiles' strictness and tendency to yank players when they missed a couple of shots in a row but it does seem to be an issue with the players themselves.

[Oskar]

Mandich, I disagree with you about "And also I think that if Gordon struggles it isn't that serious as when Deng struggles." So, because Deng has struggled all season and hasn't helped the team much. Say, he can score around 13 and grab like 6 boards, but he doesn't do what he should and what was hoped he would do, 72 mil for his performance is nowhere near good. I remember when someone on RealGM called him bust, but obviously, not a traditional bust like Kandi or Kwame, but unless he picks his game up, he's a free agent bust, like .. say Dampier for example. Deng's struggle is 5 points and 2 rebounds, but when Gordon struggles he still scores around 10 points. If Deng struggles more than he does usually (this season), it doesn't hurt the team as much as BG's off-nights when he goes like 0-5 from the suburbs.

Sorry if I misunderstood you and you meant individual performances, not how their performances help the team.

Anyways, so far, Ben Gordon seems to be the only one that Rose can help, because in my opinion, majority of the Bulls are more than calves out there. Everyone has problems, we have chuckers, cashiers, i'm-heroes, etc. Besides Gordon and Rose, I would also possibly give time to Tyrus. He's got the physical tools and unless they give him a huge contract and turn him into a cashier aswell, he'll have a chance to learn the fundamentals and improve his basketball IQ. Right now, he seems to fall in love with that 15 foot J that he feels too comfortable taking, but too uncomfortable making it, sometimes he even feels like it's the right time to swish a three, which he obviously can't do. Many seem to forget the fact that TT is still very young and is able to develop and if he'll take a little bit less jumpers, be more agressive and learn some back-to-basket game, he'll be just fine. Plus, if he really wants, he can develop his jumper and become a slave's Chris Bosh, which will take time, though.

I personally hate (well, almost) most of the players. Hughes - he has his nights, but I'm not surprised the dude is not asking for 50 minutes per game (if he would, VDN would give him 45 anyway), against the Cavs, he thought he was the hero. Was he ? He was pathetic. Nocioni, I still don't like him, he seems so headless sometimes. Deng can't do his thingdengthang, so he's been quite a garbage this season too. I don't have much respect in VDN either, he was supposed to be a good rotation man, he has like 4 guards and one forward in at once, none knows which position they play. Tell me, how many pick and rolls have you seen by Derrick Rose and Tyrus Thomas ? One comes to my mind right now .. Oh no, it wasn't Derrick, it was BG.

Btw, our frontcourt and defense suck. Plus, the referees seem to be a little bit unfair, but I doubt it's done intentionally by all the refs, might be because of the soft frontcourt as well.

[Andrew]

Deng's struggle is 5 points and 2 rebounds, but when Gordon struggles he still scores around 10 points. If Deng struggles more than he does usually (this season), it doesn't hurt the team as much as BG's off-nights when he goes like 0-5 from the suburbs.

I disagree. Forgive me if I've misunderstood you but it seems you're basically suggesting that Deng is hurting the Bulls less through even worse production when he struggles. Gordon has been fairly consistent this season while Deng has consistently struggled, there's no way the Bulls suffer more from Gordon having a tough night from the field here and there compared to Deng playing well below expectations pretty much the entire season. It's definitely more noticeable because when Gordon scores 11 points it's around 10 below his current average but Deng having another subpar year with lacklustre production is much worse and much more disappointing in the grand scheme of things.

On a happier note, Gooden returned to the lineup, didn't take minutes away from Thomas and the Bulls won a game they were definitely capable of winning, at home against the Kings. Gooden off the bench might not be a bad idea with Gray starting but playing fewer minutes, with Deng returning to the starting five over Thabo when he comes back. I also read that Hinrich is getting close to being able to practice so hopefully he's on the mend and on schedule to return after his thumb surgery. Hopefully it means a trade could take place before the deadline.

[Andrew]

Terrible loss to the Oklahoma City Thunder yesterday, blowing another lead and just getting dominated in overtime. Del Negro labelled the performance unacceptable and while even the best teams can come up short against the basement dwellers and the Bulls are shorthanded right now, I definitely agree. At this point, if they even want to make a token playoff appearance they need to take care of business against the teams they're very much capable of beating. The elite teams are still going to give them a pounding at least nine times out of ten but they continue to throw away winnable games.

In better news, Hinrich may be back as early as this Thursday. I hope he comes off the bench though, I still think he's capable of being a solid player but Rose has already established himself as the better option at point guard and while he's a better defender than Gordon, he's not a potent enough scorer to start alongside Rose as the shooting guard. Gordon has been playing pretty well this season, he doesn't deserve to get bumped back to the bench on the antiquated notion that making him the sixth man is the answer to all their problems.

[air gordon]

I think that's one of the Bulls' biggest problems on offense. They're not the most talented team offensively but they do have players who possess the tools to score more than they do, but outside Gordon, Rose and Nocioni it often seems like they're reluctant to shoot. The team won't profit from bad attempts of course but their tentativeness seems to lead to bad attempts anyway and with fewer attempts, you're naturally going to have a tougher time putting points up on the board. I was hoping that mentality was just a result of Skiles' strictness and tendency to yank players when they missed a couple of shots in a row but it does seem to be an issue with the players themselves.

i'm not so sure about that. as you mentioned, Gor-rose-noce can create shots for themselves. Gooden to a point as well. everyone else can't. lets go over the rest of the roster:

hughes-scorers mentality w/o scorers skills
hunter- afterthought
gray- the white panther can surprise only if you expect nothing
thomas- still unpolished except ft shooting
noah- if it's not a dunk, then nothing
thabo- a poor man's deng? shot seems to get going if he hits a layup
deng- midrange game a strength. can't create his own shot despite all his "tools"
hinrich-streaky shooter

IMO sounds like a bunch of players who need a post scorer to make it easier for them to score

[Matthew]

I'm suprised the Bulls havent blown this roster up yet. You see the 06 Heat, when it was clear they weren't going to compete for a championship, Riley got rid of Shaq, let Posey/ Walker/ Williams go and started to rebuild. The Bulls seem very reluctant to do that. It's obviously not working, and even if they get a player like Chris Bosh, I'm not so sure that will put them over the top.

[erik_twism]

The difference is that Miami had a ring and a very old team. They got all this players (Shaq, Walker, Williams, Payton...) to win it all now, after the achieved it and realised they won´t get another titel with this squad, they went to rebuilding.
Chicago on the other hand as a very young team (rose, thomas, noah, hinrich, deng ...) and they may believe that the team gets better in time, because the players improve, but i´m sure they pull the trigger if a trade in their favor is comming.

[Andrew]

i'm not so sure about that. as you mentioned, Gor-rose-noce can create shots for themselves. Gooden to a point as well. everyone else can't. lets go over the rest of the roster:

hughes-scorers mentality w/o scorers skills
hunter- afterthought
gray- the white panther can surprise only if you expect nothing
thomas- still unpolished except ft shooting
noah- if it's not a dunk, then nothing
thabo- a poor man's deng? shot seems to get going if he hits a layup
deng- midrange game a strength. can't create his own shot despite all his "tools"
hinrich-streaky shooter

IMO sounds like a bunch of players who need a post scorer to make it easier for them to score

I suppose, though I think Deng and Thabo have the potential to be better (or more consistent) scorers but both are just too tentative (and Thabo's not that polished offensively either, though he breaks out a nice move every now and again).

I'm suprised the Bulls havent blown this roster up yet. You see the 06 Heat, when it was clear they weren't going to compete for a championship, Riley got rid of Shaq, let Posey/ Walker/ Williams go and started to rebuild. The Bulls seem very reluctant to do that. It's obviously not working, and even if they get a player like Chris Bosh, I'm not so sure that will put them over the top.

Easier said than done. They've either had a bunch of players that are difficult to trade because they're on rookie deals and it's difficult to match larger salaries to make the deal work, or they've got the other extreme with players whose performance doesn't justify the salary.

[air gordon]

The difference is that Miami had a ring and a very old team. They got all this players (Shaq, Walker, Williams, Payton...) to win it all now, after the achieved it and realised they won´t get another titel with this squad, they went to rebuilding.

good point

Matthew- the bulls are trying to rebuild. I think last year trading Ben Wallace for Hughes/Gooden made it evident. Paxson has gone on record saying he’s trying to figure out which players on the roster he can surround Rose with. Injuries and the team sucking last year have made it hard for Paxson to make some moves. With Deng & Hinrich returning and the trade deadline nearing, maybe Paxson can strike a deal.

Bosh probably won’t put them over the top but that would be a nice start lol.

Andrew- I agree w/you about deng. I’m not so sure about Thabo. IIRC the scouting report on him was good defender/athletic/could handle the ball. I don’t think he’s a natural scorer or even a “deng” type of scorer.

in Paxson's latest interview, found here: http://www.670thescore.com/topic/play_window.php?audioType=Episode&audioId=3300120- seemed he was hinting he's pretty upset w/noah's play. also he wasn't happy with the ball movement but only named Thomas as a culprit (though he did say it was more due to him trying to do too much). my guess is he's talking about Hughe, gordon, nocioni.. and thomas to a degree


last nite's game- i was waiting for the Bulls to choke that one away. they seldom play good on national TV. go figure- they can beat the Cavs but they lose to the Thunder at home

[Andrew]

They seem to do that every now and again, beat a team that's heavily favoured and throw away one against a team they are capable of beating. It's nice to see them pick up wins over a superior opponent but frustrating to see them let the ones they really should win slip away. That remains a bad habit of theirs and they'd probably be closer to .500 or maybe even slightly over it at this point if not for a few really bad losses in very winnable games this season, not unlike the past four or five years.

[Valor]

Seems like we've got the next US President on our side
check it out here

i remember former president Bill Clinton was a bulls fan as well, or at the least, a Jordan fan

[Andrew]

They came up short against the Spurs but the final score was respectable at least. With Deng and Hinrich back I think they at least have a shot to be that, respectable, which could be good enough for a token playoff appearance and if those two play well enough to generate some trade interest so much the better.

[Andrew]

Bulls Want Ager Over Williams In Hughes Trade With Nets

The Nets and Bulls have discussed a deal that would send Larry Hughes to New Jersey for Bobby Simmons and Maurice Ager, league sources said. Sean Williams was offered instead of Ager, but Chicago wasn't interested.

Both sides are considering i, although the Bulls are talking to many teams about Hughes, who is signed through next season.

Sean Williams has his own baggage but I'd rather they get a big man in return. If he doesn't work out, they already have other options in the middle, not necessarily a whole lot better but probably no worse on the whole. It'd be worth it just to get Hughes out of town, Bobby Simmons' contract isn't much better but does expire next year as well and I can't recall any incidents that have identified him as a team cancer.

[NovU]

Man, Chicago's losing games now days. Good thing that Kirk and Loul are back though. I don't get to watch their games often, so I don't know what the problem is on the court. Any particular reason they are not playing well, Andrew? What's your view on this? Just want to hear your expertise.

[Andrew]

I don't get to see many games either, air gordon would be able to give you a better analysis than I could. It seems they're more competitive with a few of the players back from injury but they still don't close out games well. No huge surprise there as they lack a player who can consistently take over games when the going gets tough (though that could be Rose eventually) and Rose and Gordon seem to be the only ones who can be potent scorers with any regularity.

[Matthew]

Matthew- the bulls are trying to rebuild. I think last year trading Ben Wallace for Hughes/Gooden made it evident. Paxson has gone on record saying he’s trying to figure out which players on the roster he can surround Rose with. Injuries and the team sucking last year have made it hard for Paxson to make some moves. With Deng & Hinrich returning and the trade deadline nearing, maybe Paxson can strike a deal.

But they are hanging onto those players. The Gordon's, the Dengs, etc. They just have to cut their losses and move ahead with Rose as their marquee player.

The Bulls have been talking about a significant deal for years. I think all things considered, John Paxson has made more bad moves then good ones.

[hova-]

Wicked sick poster jam by Tyrus Thomas. Just nasty. Im sry for Jermaine though

[NovU]

CHI's chance at making playoffs is looking more and more shabby now, especially with lowly teams surging to play well. The loss to TOR should sting as they're right behind CHI and are pretty much in a similar situations, looking for identity.

[Andrew]

They weren't doing too badly through the first month of the season, they were sniffing around .500 and were a spurt away from pushing into the top eight where they might have been able to hold steady or at least be able to weather the storm. Injuries depleted what was already a thin roster though and they're still no better at closing out games than they were a few years ago, throwing away very winnable games.

Starting over isn't a bad idea at all but it's easier said than done, they have overpaid players who are underachieving and have too many years left on their contracts. Right now no one's going to want to take on a bad contract if they can avoid it as multiple teams position themselves to make pitches at free agents in 2010 so players like Hinrich and Deng who are getting around $10 mil a year or more have to be more difficult to move, even in a bad deal because teams surely have to be reluctant to take on those contracts. Unfortunately, those players have hit the ceiling and arguably even regressed. Deciding to blow everything up is all well and good, but I don't know how they'd actually make those moves unless there are teams that simply believe those players are in a bad situation and would be playing better in a different environment. Possible, but I don't know that many teams would take that risk.