Official '04 BIRDIE BOARD: Submit your stats! ...still!

[HonorGlow]

Thus quoteth from Monty Python: "I'm not quite dead yet!"
Some have been concerned where I've been..thanks! Actually, physically, I've stayed kind of put but my family and I have just recently moved closer to Minneapolis(now only 4 hours now) so I'm pretty excited about the upcoming season...well, just to see Miami vs the Wolves...and ?Golden State? vs the Wolves(well because of .4 Fisher)

Anyway, where were we? Oh yes, team steal penalties!

Top Steals per Game teams(season), last 12 Seasons:

Code: Select all

2004   MEM 9.70 ***
2003   PHI 10.3
2002   BOS 9.7
2001   SAC 9.7
2000   BOS 9.7
1999   PHI 10.8
1998   BOS 12.0
1997   SEA 11.0
1996   SEA 10.0
1995   SEA 11.2
1994   SEA 12.8 ***
1993   SEA 11.5

*** = indicates Hi/Low extremes

So taking out the extremes, we had an average of 10.59 SPG AVG for the best theiving teams. The record for highest BPG for a season was done by Phoenix back in 1977-78 with a 12.9 SPG average. Again, not much leeway before you get really penalized.

The Results?
My Laker Dynasty 08-09 season gets penalized 1.92 points for having the approximate 10.99 SPG. Match66's dynasty got 0.02 points deducted for having a little over 10.59 SPG(everything gets rounded so I don't know HOW much over 10.59 he got)

What's Next?
Again, since we're approximating the team's SPG based on the player's SPG, there's going to be some discrepancy due to various factors(trades/signage/releasage) so we to figure out the avg buffer to give the Dynasty a benefit of a doubt. This will of course lower my penalty for my 08-09 Dynasty and most likely will wipe out Match66's penalty altogether.

New Addition
mp3 was also cool enough to submit his pstat file to me. And, here's his results-

mp3's New York Knickbocker Dynasty: 2003-04 Mid-season

[HonorGlow]

Now where were we? Oh yeh, drum roll please...YES, the final stat in this whole team penalization process. Rebounds per Game, Team. I guess I've shied away and kept this one for very last because if you think about it...If I'm not mistaken, NBA LIVE DOES NOT KEEP TRACK OF TEAM REBOUNDS (you know when the ball goes over the backboard but nobody on defense actually grabs the ball but the team gets credit for the rebound)

I found this deviation right away when analyzing Michhy_Boy's REAL STAT's of the 2004 Lakers. The team actually averaged 43.12 RPG but using the player pstat file, the players themselves averaged 36.02 RPG. So, am I to assume that the team averaged 7.1 Team RPG? For me that seems to be a bit high but I could be wrong.

Does anybody out there know where I can find a source to find team rebounds per game?

So as it's 3 am right now, I'm not going to contemplate on an adequate solution to that yet, but of course that's the a problem to address. We that in mind, just realize at this point, if a Dynasty team goes beyond the average RPG for a team, you know that there's something definitely overinflated with that Dynasty's rebounding skills. But I digress, let's get to the facts:

Top Rebounds per Game teams(season), last 12 Seasons: (team rebounds included)

Code: Select all

2004    CLE   45.57
2003    GS    46.7
2002    GS    46.7
2001    DET   45.5 ***
2000    LAL   47.0
1999    GS    47.5
1998    GS    45.9
1997    NJ    46.2
1996    NJ    47.0
1995    DAL   48.1 ***
1994    NJ    47.0
1993    DEN   46.7

*** = indicates Hi/Low extremes

So, this averages out to be 46.63 RPG(Team Rebounds included). Now, the record for highest RPG for a season was done by Boston was back in the 1959-60 season with an amazing 71.5 RPG average! And get this, this DOES NOT include team rebounds. (do a search for this record you'll see that it isn't a joke!) Anyway, as you can see here, there's A LOT of room before the Major penalty kicks in.

The Results? (i.e. who got dinged with new stat kicking in)
For the first time in quite awhile, Big Easy's Dynasty got affected with this new evaluation, he got 3.19 points deducted for his overage of 48.27 RPG. Shadyon's NLSC Dynasty got hit a little with 1.79 points in penalties for his approx overage of 47.56 RPG. None of Cocobee's seasons were affected nor were Donatello's, Honor Glow's, MP3's, Propulsion 3D, Match 66

New results posted on the first post

So...what's next, Honor Glow?
Well. thanks for asking. Here goes-
For me: Other than real-time sleep(it's now 4:39 am) if anybody has caught on, I have yet to give the last stat a buffer for the "benefit of a doubt" since we're approximating team stats using the pstat file. AND, now with estimating the average TEAM RPG, I'll have to recalculate the Dynasties based on both of these factors. So you'll see Big Easy's and the NLSC's Birdie score drop slightly more, and some of the other Dynasty's as well.

In addition, as I've been programming strictly in Perl, I've got my hands full now, trying to convert the Birdie Analysis to CGI/html format. Meaning that in due time, anybody and everybody can check their Birdie Score and not have to send the file via e-mailing it to me.

For you, the viewer: Well, all these Birdie points are fine and dandy but what does it all mean? Yeh, Match 66's dynasty is on the top of the board but how does that compare with REAL LIFE teams or players. Good question, it makes sense that you need real life examples to compare them to. So, thanks to Micchy Boy, here's last year's REAL Laker Team with Real Life stats broken down via the Birdie formula:



and thankfully, this team didn't accumulate any absolute penalties(it's a real team, therefore it shouldn't) So, as you can see, any Dynasty team that scores above a 73.94 isn't doing too bad. For my next post, I will be giving you real world examples to compare, The NBA Champion Detroit Pistons, Michael Jordan's 1993 Birdie Score, as well as 6th man Antawn Jamison and not-so-6th Man, Mark Madson and of course the worse team last year, Orlando Magic's 21 win season.

But that's it for now, I'm going to bed. Thanks for your time! More to come? Anybody else want to participate?

[HonorGlow]

Purpose of the buffer for a specific stat: If every player on the team played from the start of the season to the end all 82 games, then providing a buffer would be unnecessary The calculated Team rebound approximation would match the actual team rebounds per game to a tee.

However, with trades, signings, releases, there is bound to be a deviation from the actual team stat. Via the pstat file, there is no way knowing if the approximated team stat is an over approximations or an under approximation, so you must always assume that the estimation as an over approximation (this is the 'benefit of a doubt' method, because we're nice guys here at the Birdie Board camp...the other method is to collect as much data as possible and find out the average values of over and under approximations) This is where the approximation buffer comes in.

So blah blah blah, here's data that was collected from my 2008-2009 Season:

Teams with over-approximated team RPG pstat data: 2008-09

Code: Select all

City           RPG    Aprox     %   

LA Lakers      31.0   33.90     1.094 ***
LA Clippers    35.5   38.32     1.079
Denver         26.4   28.18     1.067   
Utah           27.8   29.26     1.053
Phoenix        32.0   32.71     1.022
San Antonio    36.3   36.88     1.016
Washington     33.0   33.26     1.008
Atlanta        30.8   31.01     1.007     
New Jersey     29.6   29.71     1.004
Orlando        34.3   34.32     1.001
Golden State   27.9   27.92     1.001 
Cleveland      36.9   36.95     1.001 ***   
*** = high/low values to


10 entities, 1.026% Average
So, in other words, if a team originally needed to reach the 46.63 RPG penalty level(see previous post) before penalties are assessed, we now factor in the buffer % and this penalty level is raised to 47.84 during the penalty calculation purposes. Thus the buffer gives giving the Dynasty some leeway, a plus to you...the player!

Anyway, any rebuttals so far? Anyway, to make this buffer approximation better? (I know one but I was just wondering if anybody is listening. The other method takes a significantly more time to gather the data, like watching grass grow)

The Results?
So, logically this buufer would only affect those Dynasties that were already affected by our penal system(haha I said penal) Thus, Big Easy's Dynasty and Shadyon's NLSC Dynasty.

NEWSFLASH:!: with a buffer on his side, Big Easy moves back to the top of the board.
Big Easy's team rebound penalty got reduced from 3.19 penalty points to a mere low .82 of a point in penalties by beneficiary of the buffer approximation. Shadyon's rebound penalty also was reduced from 1.79 points to now being not affect by the Team Rebound catagory at all. However, he is still at the bottom of the board with a Birdie Score of 56.33.

So, what's next Honor Glow?
Well, I know that calculating and desribing the derivations of buffer approximations aren't exactly the most exciting thing we can read on the message board. I sympathize because I agree. I merely do it so somebody out there that's really bored and mathematically inclined can go, "Honor Glow, you're full of crap. This is how you do it." Apparently, that hasn't happened...not yet. But I do hope it does eventually because this Birdie Board is to be enjoyed by one and all- so I want to make it as awesome as possible.

Other than the fact that we left out the "Team Rebound" factor, I think I'm confidant to say that we're done with Phase One of the project. So ladies and gentleman...well, gentleman.

Welcome to the Birdie Board: phase 1.5. um. basically a limbo point. 1) To the annoyance of some, I'm still bugging you for more data. 2) Again, on the backend, I'm creating the Perl/CGI scripts so when 2005 comes out, you'll be able to upload your pstat at any stage of your season and see your Birdie score. AND, there's some other surprises that are up my sleeve.

But I can talk the talk, but I got to show you my 'game', so in otherwords, please shut up Honor Glow and get to work.

Okay, I'm off to work on this code...but always remember:

I NEED MORE DATA! Please participate, even if you haven't played your Dynasty in like 5 months.

'nuff.

[HonorGlow]

from the annals of The Birdie Project v1.5:
iDiot's Los Angeles Clippers Dynasty: 2003-2004 season(end)


So just like in real life, Elton Brand comes away with team MVP honors- weighted Birdie score of 13.65
This Dynasty is currently ranked #15 on the all-time Birdie Board
(as of time of post)

just to note: iDiot let me know on the onset that he knew that his stats were quite unrealistic. From what I gather(with an approximate team PPG 44.94, that he's just not playing enough minutes per quarter) This though I am very thankful that you gave me your stats, iDiot, as it gives me an idea what Dynasties that play less minutes are standing. Believe me, this helps me so much in my calibration tweaks for the future. so thanks, iDiot!

Anybody else have their pstat ready to upload?

[HonorGlow]

How well does Air Jordan fare in the Birdie Point system?:
So, yes, I'm still here! Still working on fun things in the hiding while we all wait for '05 to come out!

Well, iDiot made a point in that the Birdie Board isn't really fair to Dynasties who play less minutes than normal(below 12 min/quarter). Well, exactly! When you're putting non-realistic amount of time into the game, your players aren't going to achieve realistic stats.

Well, okay, out of fairness, I'll also introduce another aspect Birdies Per Minute (ie value per minute) Basically, this gauges how efficient your player is on the average. So remember, it means, it doesn't matter if you play a 4 minute quarter or a 12 minute quarter. So, it evens out the playing field on the basis of how long you play each game.

So, to introduce this new stat catagory, I thought it'd be cool to show you Michael Jordan's career- from most efficient to least efficient. I multiplied the new catagory by 100 just to look for visually appealing.

Michael Jordan's Career: Sorted by his Birdie efficiency


In 1989 was arguably Jordan's most prolific year in the NBA(despite the Bulls not winning a title) where racked up 32.63 in Birdie Points. What does this mean to us Dynasty players? Well, if we're trying to achieve realistic stats, a team's MVP really shouldn't be surpassing a 1989 Jordan's Birdie Score. Out of the Team MVP's listed, only PiksS from the NLSC Dynasty came close with a Birdie score of 30.20.

If anything, this gives you a gauge on how Team Dynasty MVP's compare with Real Life Hall-of-Famers

Well, my 2011 Laker Dynasty is winding up so we'll see how low that ends up on the Birdie Board. Up next, we'll see how Wilt Chamberlain fairs against our Team MVP's.

[idiot]

eheehehee.... i didn't really say it's not fair.... or did i?


anyways, birdies per minute is awesome

[alexboom]

I may have been the one who spotted it :

http://forums.nbalive.org/viewtopic.php ... ght=#79447

hehe iDiot, people confuse us... with all the Live 2000 work, it's as if we were brothers

[HonorGlow]

So, the latest addition to the Birdie family...

Ezzioo's Toronto Raptors: 2003-2004 Mid-season


Ezzioo's dynasty only got a little taken off from the 94.55 raw score due to player penalties(1.60 penalties pts to be exact due to Alston going a teensy bit overboard in the steals catagory.)

Where he really got nailed was in the team penalties: -11.46 for having a high approximated team BPG(10.82) and -4.22 for his high approximated team scoring average(108.44 ppg).

Nevertheless, This Dynasty is currently ranked #9 on the all-time Birdie Board
(as of time of post)

As always, the Birdie Board reflects the new addition.

Up next, Alexboom's Detroit Dynasty!

Anybody else before the "NBA Live 2004 Dynasty Issues" becomes a forgotten thread?

[e.z.o]

Thanks for the Birdie Board on my Dynasty. I will lower the stealing and blocking. I want top 5 after my whole season. It's on now. I'm definitely finishing my season.

[HonorGlow]

So the last installment to the Birdie family...
...last but definitely not least...non-numerically speaking at least.

Alexboom's Detroit Pistons: 2011-2012 end of season


This Dynasty is currently ranked #17 on the all-time Birdie Board
(as of time of post)
but to be fair...
This Dynasty is currently ranked #8 on the non-penalized Birdie Board
(as of time of post)

Now, I encouraged Alexboom to still contribute so I can get a feel what Birdie scores are achieved when playing 2 minute quarters. I'm glad to see that there are no penalties assessed in an 8 minute game or my Penalty system would have been really questioned!

The Birdie Board reflects the new addition Thanks Alexboom for your contribution.

Up next, one last post here on the 2004 thread to introduce what's in store for The Birdie Board v1.75 before we switch over to the '05 side. Basically, it's a preview for all who are still faithful in keeping up with the 2004 thread knowing that there's still at least 3 weeks before a handful of us will land the PC versions of the game.

I realized I started up the Birdie Board when most Live players were winding up their '04 game so this experiment was tough to execute and that's why I want to thank ALL the participants who provided their data to keep this thread rolling. So, I'll be starting up Birdie Board v2.0 on the 2005 thread a week and a half from now...and excited what new possibilities will come and what new participants we'll have in store. STAY TUNE!

[alexboom]

Thanks for the stats HonorGlow, I'm surprised to see that Chris Wiles (my center with a body like Shaq with about a 25 rating in rebounds) produces more than my old Chauncey Billups

By the way, how come that Steve Nash go from 4.85 in Raw Birdie to 0.81 in Weighted Birdie?

[HonorGlow]

Alexboom:
Thanks for bringing this up! According to your data Steve Nash only played about a fifth of your teams total games. So although he may have an average value of 4.85 Birdies points for those 4 games, is total value for the entire season is based on his participation during the season( ie the more games you play, the closer you stay near the RAW score)

BUT thanks for bringing this matter up because it brought up another matter that I have to address in my coding…Battier played 24 games while your other principal players have played 19 or 20 games…Did you trade for Battier midseason? If so, I need to recalculate your team score based on this factoid. As much code as I have put it, I have yet to program a trade flag for midseason(very important for accuracy mind you) Please let me know how many TOTAL games you've played so I can get motivated to write the flag code and give you a new total. Thanks Alexboom!

BTW, it was interesting to interpret your French pstat file!

[alexboom]

BUT thanks for bringing this matter up because it brought up another matter that I have to address in my coding…Battier played 24 games while your other principal players have played 19 or 20 games…Did you trade for Battier midseason? If so, I need to recalculate your team score based on this factoid. As much code as I have put it, I have yet to program a trade flag for midseason(very important for accuracy mind you) Please let me know how many TOTAL games you've played so I can get motivated to write the flag code and give you a new total. Thanks Alexboom!

BTW, it was interesting to interpret your French pstat file![/quote]

You're right, I got Shane Battier after 10 games in exchange of a 3 years experienced generated player. And I recently got Steve Nash from Toronto, who was stuck in IR and didn't played a single game. I played him in every game since I got him. The first game I played with him, he finished best scorer of the game and posted pretty decent stats since (assuming he was the 12th man)

In order to know how many games I played, look at Mehmet or Chauncey stats, they didn't miss a single game

Thanks for your job, the stats you produced are very interesting, and makes me wanna keep on playing the Dynasty

[HonorGlow]

Wow...it must be at least 9 months since I posted here!

...from the Annals of the 2004 Birdie Project: (info)
Negative One's Golden State 2004-05 end of season Birdie Breakdown:

Well, it's been awhile since since a rookie was also considered most valuable for his team(LeBron James?) however N. Free has done it and earns Team MVP honors with a weighted Birdie score of 15.27.

Tapping into the top 20:
This Dynasty instance is currently ranked #16 on the Official 2004 Birdie Board

Complete 'Birdie Breakdown' coverage click here.

A SHOUT OUT TO EVERY 2004 GM!: Well, I never realized how popular NBA Live 2004 would still be after 2 versions after...but you guys have kept it strong! If you guys are at your mid-season, or end of season, I'd love to compute your efficiency stats! Negative One Yes yes the next time you get to a mid season, for either of your dynasties send it my way...and I'm curious...can you post a screen shot of N. Free and a little bio here?

[The X]

http://www.livegmc.com/cgi-bin/bboard-2004-sql.cgi

I'm ranked 7th imagine how high I would have been if I didn't sim half of my games to keep it real

I rate Live '04 above '05 because of the leaps and bounds the game made....although Live '05 was probably a better game than '04....both are better than '06 I believe....

[HonorGlow]

Nice one the X...but unfortunately you are bumped down one...becase...

...from the Chronicles of the 2006 Birdie Project:(info)

Negative One's Houston 2004-05 mid-season Birdie Breakdown:

McGrady McGrady McGrady...when playing 05 online he's always around, and then 04...he's still there dominating. He's no different here as he takes Team MVP honors with aweighted Birdie efficiency score of 26.33 .

(pending review...)
Tapping into the top 10:
This Dynasty instance is currently ranked #1 on the Official 2004 Birdie Board

AND #1 on the All-Time Birdie Board!

Complete 'Birdie Breakdown' coverage clickhere.

Negative One: Well, team will live in liveGMC.com history for months and hopefully years to come! Congratulations, since you beat out the competition by a landslide I'm going to have to do a bit of stat checking....but it seems pretty legitimate! Thanks for keeping the 2004 Birdie Board alive and I'm looking forward to your end of year stats!

[H Rock]

can you post a screen shot of N. Free and a little bio here?

Actually, that dynasty got deleted. He was actually one of my friends who I put in there.

Congratulations, since you beat out the competition by a landslide I'm going to have to do a bit of stat checking....but it seems pretty legitimate!

Actually, I think I did so well because my shooting stats were set up pretty high, and therefore I didn't miss a lot of shots. Therefore, I got a better score.

But when I submitted those stats to you I was actually only 6-8.

[HonorGlow]

HRock/Negative One now occupies 3 of the 10 spots on the 2004 Birdie Board top ten:

http://www.livegmc.com/cgi-bin/bboard-2004-sql.cgi

Slowly but surely, I'll be putting up his results as time allows...I think I have at least 8 more seasons of his to compute!

[UVA44]

lol lets keep this going!